Television Marvel’s Echo trailer (January 9th 2024)

[Spork3245]

 

I could’ve sworn there was a thread for this from awhile ago but I gave up searching after a couple of minutes  

Looks like they’re dumping all episodes at once.

[Jason]

3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

Looks like they’re dumping all episodes at once.

 

Which tells me they have zero confidence in how this turned out. And I had that reaction before finding out it went through extensive reshoots because Feige wasn't happy with how the first version of this turned out. 

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

Which tells me they have zero confidence in how this turned out. And I had that reaction before finding out it went through extensive reshoots because Feige wasn't happy with how the first version of this turned out. 

It promises to be “the most violent” and “bloodiest” MCU show so far, so it has that going for it!

[Mercury33]

I was in for King Pin and then aggressively out on the rest of it. 

[Greatoneshere]

It's just strange that someone who has barely been a character in the grander MCU is getting their own full blown MCU show. I like the representation, but yeah.

[Gavin King]

Happy to see this is more violent and looks closer to the level of Netflix Daredevil. Wasn't hoping for much before, but the trailer surprised me that it doesn't appear to be watering down the maturity.

 

If Disney wants to have a million movies and shows, they need to have the genres and styles broken up a bit to give different looks at the universe. Make their street level heroes more of a John Wick-style could be something to keep it unique and fresh from the rest of the MCU.

[Spork3245]

I think this has that rare potential of being better than everyone thinks it will be while still being not that good  

[Brick]

A lot of people are now saying because this trailer uses clips from the Netflix Daredevil show that means it is canon, and one of the producers has said he considers it canon. Honestly as much as I liked the Netflix show, I'd rather them start with a clean slate. 

[Greatoneshere]

4 hours ago, Brick said:

A lot of people are now saying because this trailer uses clips from the Netflix Daredevil show that means it is canon, and one of the producers has said he considers it canon. Honestly as much as I liked the Netflix show, I'd rather them start with a clean slate. 

 

Really? I don't want to see all the same plotlines done again if they were to do that because the first three seasons did some important Daredevil storylines from the comics that a reboot would likely feel obliged to redo and I don't want to go through three seasons of the same plot beats again so soon after the last show with the same cast. Let's keep doing new stories and grandfather the show in. The original show was meant to fit in with the MCU so not sure why Marvel feels they need to be weird on this issue. I don't think anything from the Netflix show contradicts anything that's happened in the MCU since. Maybe The Defenders but even then I think it fits.

[Brick]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Really? I don't want to see all the same plotlines done again if they were to do that because the first three seasons did some important Daredevil storylines from the comics that a reboot would likely feel obliged to redo and I don't want to go through three seasons of the same plot beats again so soon after the last show with the same cast. Let's keep doing new stories and grandfather the show in. The original show was meant to fit in with the MCU so not sure why Marvel feels they need to be weird on this issue. I don't think anything from the Netflix show contradicts anything that's happened in the MCU since. Maybe The Defenders but even then I think it fits.

 

Well the easy solution is to just not do them again. Allude to similar things already happening maybe, but just move on with new stories. Maybe, maybe do some things again, but only if they can be done better (not everything from the Netflix show was done perfectly), but since the Netflix show was connected to the other Netflix shows through The Defenders (Luke Cage, Iron Fist), and somethings from those shows are better left forgotten entirely, yeah why not just reboot with the same actors. Doesn't need to be an origin again, could be like The Batman where he's been doing it for two to three years already. Plus, it's a little weird, and bugs my OCD that if the Netflix shows are canon, then Mahershala Ali is both Cottonmouth and Blade, and Mariah is also the same woman who told Tony Stark off in Civil War lol. 

[Greatoneshere]

13 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

Well the easy solution is to just not do them again. Allude to similar things already happening maybe, but just move on with new stories. Maybe, maybe do some things again, but only if they can be done better (not everything from the Netflix show was done perfectly), but since the Netflix show was connected to the other Netflix shows through The Defenders (Luke Cage, Iron Fist), and somethings from those shows are better left forgotten entirely, yeah why not just reboot with the same actors. Doesn't need to be an origin again, could be like The Batman where he's been doing it for two to three years already. Plus, it's a little weird, and bugs my OCD that if the Netflix shows are canon, then Mahershala Ali is both Cottonmouth and Blade, and Mariah is also the same woman who told Tony Stark off in Civil War lol. 

 

You gotta take the good with the bad, the rest of the MCU has plenty of both anyway at this point. I just don't trust a reboot to not go back into many of the important stories Netflix Daredevil already covered at some point which would be lame. Some things from many of the movies should also be forgotten entirely yet they can't be so the same should apply to the shows too. 

 

And I don't like double-casting either but Cottonmouth is dead so that helps some. The movies have also done this from time to time too, so you can't say the shows can't be connected because of this reason when the movies have already done it too. For instance, Gemma Chan is in both Captain Marvel and Eternals. Laura Haddock plays both Peter Quill's mom in Guardians and a woman wanting Cap's autograph in The First Avenger (since you went deep on the Mariah Dillard thing as counting).  Michelle Yeoh is in both Guardians of the Galaxy and Shang-Chi. I ignored actors who do a live-action role and a CG role, like Judy Greer (Ant-Man and Vol. 3) and Linda Cardellini (Age of Ultron and Vol. 3). So while it is rare, it's not just the Netflix shows.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Really? I don't want to see all the same plotlines done again if they were to do that because the first three seasons did some important Daredevil storylines from the comics that a reboot would likely feel obliged to redo and I don't want to go through three seasons of the same plot beats again so soon after the last show with the same cast. Let's keep doing new stories and grandfather the show in. The original show was meant to fit in with the MCU so not sure why Marvel feels they need to be weird on this issue. I don't think anything from the Netflix show contradicts anything that's happened in the MCU since. Maybe The Defenders but even then I think it fits.

 

I'm guessing they're going to give Daredevil the Spider-Man in Civil War treatment: he's already a hero and you've probably already seen his backstory.

[Greatoneshere]

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

I'm guessing they're going to give Daredevil the Spider-Man in Civil War treatment: he's already a hero and you've probably already seen his backstory.

 

Yeah, and that backstory is the canonical Netflix Daredevil show.  But yeah I agree that's probably how it will be handle, for the best I think.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Daredevil has been in the MCU twice. In the last Spider-Man and in She-Hulk. Why would they start him over? 

[Brick]

58 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Daredevil has been in the MCU twice. In the last Spider-Man and in She-Hulk. Why would they start him over? 

 

As in this Daredevil we've seen is a start over already. Another reason it might be best to anyway is if they can't get all the actors from the original show to return. I'm not sure if the casting for the new show has been announced. 

[EternallDarkness]

I don't believe this shit. I am 20 minutes into the first episode and half the scenes don't have closed captioning, hell some scenes start with it and then it just stops (the Kingpin limo scene specifically). Seriously of all the shows for them to screw up CC on, the one featuring a deaf mute is not the one 

[Jason]

15 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

I don't believe this shit. I am 20 minutes into the first episode and half the scenes don't have closed captioning, hell some scenes start with it and then it just stops (the Kingpin limo scene specifically). Seriously of all the shows for them to screw up CC on, the one featuring a deaf mute is not the one 

 

lol they're probably just releasing this because they have to and aren't willing to pull a Zaslav on burying it for a writeoff, I was already getting that vibe from them dumping all five episodes at once but this just adds to that vibe. This show apparently got put through MAJOR reworking and I think it was the last thing in their no-showrunner pipeline?

[EternallDarkness]

it gets worse...at least in the Kingpin scene you could hear what they were saying but there is now an entire scene with her cousin in which they have a conversation completely in sign language with captioning!!! how the hell do you move a story forward when 99% of the people watching will likely have no freaking clue what is happening? 

[Spork3245]

6 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

I don't believe this shit. I am 20 minutes into the first episode and half the scenes don't have closed captioning, hell some scenes start with it and then it just stops (the Kingpin limo scene specifically). Seriously of all the shows for them to screw up CC on, the one featuring a deaf mute is not the one 

This is more likely a glitch with whatever program they’re using to produce the CC on screen. I’ve encountered something similar with basically every streaming service in the past, including it pulling the CC for a different episode or show. It’s unlikely they “just didn’t bother putting in the CC”. 

[Greatoneshere]

13 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

I don't believe this shit. I am 20 minutes into the first episode and half the scenes don't have closed captioning, hell some scenes start with it and then it just stops (the Kingpin limo scene specifically). Seriously of all the shows for them to screw up CC on, the one featuring a deaf mute is not the one 

 

12 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

it gets worse...at least in the Kingpin scene you could hear what they were saying but there is now an entire scene with her cousin in which they have a conversation completely in sign language with captioning!!! how the hell do you move a story forward when 99% of the people watching will likely have no freaking clue what is happening? 

 

Yeah, this isn't unique to Echo. Happens all the time with numerous streaming services - just happened to me on Crunchyroll recently. Captioning being in and out, etc. Another reason to pirate shows instead and get proper subtitles by the torrent sites, has almost never failed me.

[Greatoneshere]

16 hours ago, Jason said:

lol they're probably just releasing this because they have to and aren't willing to pull a Zaslav on burying it for a writeoff, I was already getting that vibe from them dumping all five episodes at once but this just adds to that vibe. This show apparently got put through MAJOR reworking and I think it was the last thing in their no-showrunner pipeline?

 

This is all true but I doubt related to the closed captioning. I'll be checking out the show shortly, will see if it's any good. Originally this was an 8-episode show but when Feige saw it he found it unreleasable. Then there were discussions of somehow editing it into something releasable and shorter, like 4 or 6 episodes until it was decided to reshoot most of the series instead and has now become 5 episodes.

 

Edit: Also, Agatha and Ironheart were also made during the "no showrunner" pipeline so those may be affected. Not as sure with Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Eyes of Wakanda or Marvel Zombies since those come out this year but aren't far along. Daredevil: Born Again and Wonder Man's filming have both been put on hold/hiatus, so those may be saved from the no showrunner pipeline problem but they were in production and shooting when that report dropped and both were put on hold due to this very issue. And yes, Marvel may not be putting out any movies this year except for Deadpool 3 but they do have 5 TV shows coming out this year, excluding Echo. And the tradeoff movie-wise is we get four MCU films in 2024 instead. I think it's too much but here we are.

[Firewithin]

watched three eps last night and thought it was good enough.  its fun seeing a bunch of the cast from reservation dogs in this

[ort]

Word on the street is that this show is extremely okay.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, ort said:

Word on the street is that this show is extremely okay.

So 10x better than anyone was expecting?

[SuperSpreader]

So far this is better than anything from the Snyderverse 

[EternallDarkness]

13 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

This is more likely a glitch with whatever program they’re using to produce the CC on screen. I’ve encountered something similar with basically every streaming service in the past, including it pulling the CC for a different episode or show. It’s unlikely they “just didn’t bother putting in the CC”. 

 

 

maybe i lost hearing in one of my ears a couple of years ago and so now watch everything with subtitles on and this is the first time I've encountered the issue. Just seemed insane that it would happen on a show centered around a deaf character 

[Greatoneshere]

4 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

maybe i lost hearing in one of my ears a couple of years ago and so now watch everything with subtitles on and this is the first time I've encountered the issue. Just seemed insane that it would happen on a show centered around a deaf character 

 

I watch subtitles with everything all the time for as long as I can remember, so I'm with you there. I'm genuinely surprised this is the first time you're encountering this issue but guess it was bound to happen eventually.

[Spork3245]

9 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

 

maybe i lost hearing in one of my ears a couple of years ago and so now watch everything with subtitles on and this is the first time I've encountered the issue. Just seemed insane that it would happen on a show centered around a deaf character 

It’s surprising you haven’t encountered it until now since you use CC/subs so frequently. I had it happen just a few weeks ago with Monarch on AppleTV+, and it happened when I was watching Justice League (the animated show) a few months back (it was pulling subs from a different episode) on Max.

[Jason]

If you want to see lulzily bad captions go load up DS9 on Paramount+. No apostrophes at all and the order of the lines of text on screen at any given time is seemingly random.

[EternallDarkness]

14 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I watch subtitles with everything all the time for as long as I can remember, so I'm with you there. I'm genuinely surprised this is the first time you're encountering this issue but guess it was bound to happen eventually.

 

 

guess I've just been lucky so far

[Greatoneshere]

So, I've now watched all five episodes and the show is solid. Not bad, not okay, not good, not great, but solid. Everyone acts well, particularly Vincent D'Onofrio (no surprise), the Daredevil cameo was fun, the action scenes are well done enough, etc. There's just not a lot there - the show meanders for all 5 episodes going back and forth as Maya does a whole lot of nothing. Maya points a gun at Fisk at least 3 different times in the show and doesn't shoot him point blank dead which gets dumb to the point of being a running joke by the end. There's constant talk of family but Maya never sits down with the whole family at any point (until the end, and even then, the nice grandfather is missing). The show rushes the ending and it's weird the other family members barely interact with one another - to the point they never bother to explain what happened to Biscuit and Bonnie's parents, especially when they show how close the grandmother was with Maya's mother, what about her other child? I didn't mind watching it but it just felt like "another" show like a lot of these do. Fun doesn't necessarily mean memorable or quality. This is my current MCU TV show ranking (since Disney+):

 

-Loki: 8/10

-What If: 7.5/10

-Moon Knight: 7.5/10 (now that more shows are out, this looks better and better)

-WandaVision: 7/10 (three episodes satirizing three different sitcom decades was a bit much and the kids' plot with Olsen was bad)

-Hawkeye: 6.5/10 (I'm a Hawkeye stan and a Jeremy Renner stan, so . . . yeah - this was fun if a bit too silly)

-She-Hulk: Attorney at Law: 6.5/10 (fun, funny, perfectly She-Hulk, just not enough there, too slight)

-The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: 6/10 (Mackie's family plot was good, chemistry with Sebastian was great, Zemo was awesome, but the villain side was bad)

-Echo: 6/10 

-Ms. Marvel: 6/10 (too YA for me, on the nose, too much for kids, too silly; I liked it but perhaps because I am Pakistani-American all the cultural stuff was too much)

-Secret Invasion: 5/10 (I'm being generous since there was a lot of promise in the first three episodes but then the show shits the bed completely)

 

Damn, ten MCU shows in just three years (with two shows with a second season). Marvel honestly just isn't making great TV, hopefully they get this fixed because it shouldn't be hard. None of these shows are bad (except Secret Invasion) but none of these shows are good or great (save for a few).

TL;DR: Echo is not the trainwreck everyone assumed it was, and it treats the Native American stuff with sensitivity, which was appreciated, it's just not a great show. 

[EternallDarkness]

14 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

-Moon Knight: 7.5/10 (now that more shows are out, this looks better and better)

 

 

I am a huge Moon Knight fan and I think you're being generous here. There was plenty to enjoy but having almost all the fights, including the climax if I recall being 'blackouts' (no doubt with Jake likely being in control) felt damn cheap. There are definitely time where inferred events can heighten tension or enhance a story but that's usually in horror. You don't cut out action scenes and simply imply there was action in a show like Moon Knight. Yes the first one or two tines was fine as the Grant persona had no clue what was happening, but not almost every major action sequence.

 

 

I'll have give thought to the other shows, though I liked Hawkeye quite a bit. As for Echo, started watching the second epsiode and again the CC keeps crapping out. It's the only damn show that seems to be doing it! 

[Greatoneshere]

7 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

I am a huge Moon Knight fan and I think you're being generous here. There was plenty to enjoy but having almost all the fights, including the climax if I recall being 'blackouts' (no doubt with Jake likely being in control) felt damn cheap. There are definitely time where inferred events can heighten tension or enhance a story but that's usually in horror. You don't cut out action scenes and simply imply there was action in a show like Moon Knight. Yes the first one or two tines was fine as the Grant persona had no clue what was happening, but not almost every major action sequence.

 

The score is relative to other MCU shows, not TV shows in general if that helps (Breaking Bad, Barry, Succession, etc.).  Have you seen all the other ones? At least Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead (the directors who then did Loki season 2) brought a significant amount of style to the proceedings, at least the mystery in Moon Knight was interesting, unlike Secret Invasion, Falcon, and Echo and all the acting is really good. Additionally, it's uniqueness, delving into ancient Egyptian mythology and setting set it apart from the rest which look and feel more generic. I agree with your criticisms but I don't care that much about action scenes - this show had more character work for Moon Knight than a lot of these other shows seem to bother to do with their characters, which instead are constantly barreling forward via plot. I'm not gonna knock the show too hard just due to action scenes given what else we've been getting from MCU TV. You get beautiful stuff like altering the night sky and meeting an elephant god, etc. Just had more going on. Echo rides a motorcycle back and forth in Tamaha, OK while avoiding her family and going around in circles for 5 episodes by comparison.  

[EternallDarkness]

Given the character and how insane the fights/violence can be in that comic I just thought it was crappy for us not to really get to see him in action. He's definitely one heck of a complex character and hope like hell we'll be seeing more of him the future.

 

 

Watching paint dry is more fun than Secret Invasion was 

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

Given the character and how insane the fights/violence can be in that comic I just thought it was crappy for us not to really get to see him in action. He's definitely one heck of a complex character and hope like hell we'll be seeing more of him the future.

 

Watching paint dry is more fun than Secret Invasion was 

 

I agree with you about the comics version having some insane stuff but this was an origin story and made on a low budget - I went into the show knowing the action would be primarily minimal and it was. It was pretty solid when it was there though. I suppose my expectations were just lower on that front - none of the action in any of the MCU TV shows have been good or memorable. The opening fight scene from The Continental blows everything MCU TV out of the water. Hell, Daredevil and Punisher action scenes in the old Netflix MCU shows were wayyyy better. MCU TV just isn't there with action in general, Moon Knight included.

 

And yeah, Secret Invasion . . . yikes.