mclumber1 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: The Allies -- at least in the Western sector -- really DIDN'T de-Nazify Germany very much at all. Except for those with the highest levels of power and influence, practically all of those who either worked for the Nazis or who were members of the Nazi party remained in their positions without penalty. In fact, the first governments of West Germany were heavily stocked with ex-Nazis. I guess my point was that while Nazism was very ideological, it didn't take much after the war for most Nazis to give up being blood thirsty Jew hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said: I guess my point was that while Nazism was very ideological, it didn't take much after the war for most Nazis to give up being blood thirsty Jew hunters. It took a LOT more than you think! Quote The US conducted opinion surveys in the American zone of occupied Germany.[89] Tony Judt, in his book Postwar: a History of Europe since 1945, extracted and used some of them.[90] A majority in the years 1945–1949 stated Nazism to have been a good idea but badly applied.[89] In 1946, 6% of Germans said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.[89] In 1946, 37% in the US occupation zone said about the Holocaust that "the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans".[89] In 1946, 1 in 3 in the US occupation zone said that Jews should not have the same rights as those belonging to the Aryan race.[89] In 1950, 1 in 3 said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.[89] In 1952, 37% said Germany was better off without the Jews on its territory.[89] In 1952, 25% had a good opinion of Hitler.[89] British historian Ian Kershaw in his book The "Hitler Myth": Image and Reality in the Third Reich[91] writes about the various surveys carried out at the German population: In 1945, 42% of young Germans and 22% of adult Germans thought that the reconstruction of Germany would be best applied by a "strong new Führer". In 1952, 10% of Germans thought that Hitler was the greatest statesman and that his greatness would only be realized at a later date; and 22% thought he had made "some mistakes" but was still an excellent leader. In 1953, 14% of Germans said they would vote for someone like Hitler again. I watched this video the other day on this very subject and it was pretty eye-opening! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 FYI in case you noticed some posts suddenly missing: I went ahead and cleaned up the thread because things were getting a bit off-topic. If anyone disagrees with their post getting hidden, please feel free to PM me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Nokra said: FYI in case you noticed some posts suddenly missing: I went ahead and cleaned up the thread because things were getting a bit off-topic. If anyone disagrees with their post getting hidden, please feel free to PM me. They weren't off topic, you just couldn't decipher the topic from the text 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Nokra said: FYI in case you noticed some posts suddenly missing: I went ahead and cleaned up the thread because things were getting a bit off-topic. If anyone disagrees with their post getting hidden, please feel free to PM me. Fucking thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: It took a LOT more than you think! I watched this video the other day on this very subject and it was pretty eye-opening! Yea, there was a lot of insurgency and terrorism post-war in Germany that was purposely kept from the public eye iirc, especially among former Hitler Youth. It was portrayed as “okay, it’s over! Everyone is happy!” when that was far from the truth. The latest polling of Palestinians (July 2023) shows that Hamas has 57% support in Palestine: Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics WWW.WASHINGTONINSTITUTE.ORG Recent Washington Institute polls have tracked Gazans’ views on Hamas and the ceasefire with Israel, along with a wider regional decline in popularity for Hamas and Hezbollah. Quote Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%). However, if given the choice, a majority seemingly would prefer another another party to govern. Though, a vast majority (almost 75%) support PIJ and/or Lion’s Den (not necessarily in a governing role) which are arguably as bad or worse than Hamas: Quote But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents. So, yea, this really isn’t something that can just be “rooted out”. It will take years (probably decades) of education and change (from the Israeli side as well) for any real solution to be feasible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 So how credible is the claim that one of the main motives behind Hamas’s campaign is a (probably Iran-backed) drive to stop the possible normalization of Israeli-Saudi relations that had seemed to slowly be coming to fruition? I’ve heard the idea bandied about a lot but admittedly have been paying marginal attention to negotiations between the Israelis and the Saudis lately. (I kind of just assume any manner of ‘peace’ or ‘normalization’ initiatives in this region are inevitably doomed nowadays, even though I hope to be wrong someday) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Nokra said: FYI in case you noticed some posts suddenly missing: I went ahead and cleaned up the thread because things were getting a bit off-topic. If anyone disagrees with their post getting hidden, please feel free to PM me. tf happened while I was asleep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 3 hours ago, Spork3245 said: So, yea, this really isn’t something that can just be “rooted out”. It will take years (probably decades) of education and change (from the Israeli side as well) for any real solution to be feasible. Agree, this is a 40+ year transition that needs to happen. Memories of today need to be really distant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Last night at dinner the table over from us were evangelicals, either in the ministry or active in the church, I only know this because I heard them talking about how this is helping lead to Jesus’ return and shit. I may have lost my temper but I didn’t confront them as bad as I wanted to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 First on CNN: US Navy warship near Yemen intercepts multiple missiles, US officials say | CNN Politics WWW.CNN.COM A US Navy warship operating in the Middle East intercepted multiple projectiles near the coast of Yemen, two US officials told CNN. Quote A US Navy warship operating in the Middle East intercepted multiple projectiles near the coast of Yemen, two US officials told CNN. One of the officials said the missiles were fired by Iranian-backed Houthi militants, who are engaged in an ongoing conflict in Yemen. Approximately 2-3 missiles were intercepted, according to the second official. The officials said it was unclear what the missiles were targeting. It’s possible the missiles were fired at the USS Carney or launched towards another target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Israel’s defense minister tells troops to be ready to see Gaza ‘from the inside’ APNEWS.COM Israel’s defense minister told ground troops to be ready to enter the Gaza Strip, though he didn’t say when the invasion will start. Quote Israel pounded the Gaza Strip with airstrikes on Thursday, including in the south where Palestinians were told to take refuge, and the country’s defense minister told ground troops to “be ready” to invade, though he didn’t say when. Quote In a fiery speech to Israeli infantry soldiers on the Gaza border Thursday, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant urged the forces to “get organized, be ready” for an order to move in. Israel has massed tens of thousands of troops along the border. “Whoever sees Gaza from afar now, will see it from the inside ... I promise you,” he said. “It might take a week, a month, two months until we destroy them,” he added, referring to Hamas. Quote Israel did not list fuel as a permitted item, but a senior Egyptian security official said Egypt was negotiating for the entry of fuel for hospitals. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the press. The first trucks of aid were expected to go in Friday, Egypt’s state-owned Al-Qahera news reported. With the Egypt-Gaza border crossing in Rafah still closed, the already dire conditions at Gaza’s second-largest hospital deteriorated further, said Dr. Mohammed Qandeel of Nasser Hospital in the southern town of Khan Younis. Power was shut off in most departments to save it for intensive care and other vital functions, and staff members were using mobile phones for light. Quote The deal to get aid into Gaza through Rafah, the territory’s only connection to Egypt, remained fragile. Israel said the supplies could only go to civilians in southern Gaza and that it would “thwart” any diversions by Hamas. U.S. President Joe Biden said the deliveries “will end” if Hamas takes any aid. More than 200 trucks and some 3,000 tons of aid were positioned at or near Rafah, according to Khalid Zayed. the head of the Red Crescent for North Sinai. Under an arrangement reached between the United Nations, Israel and Egypt, U.N. observers will inspect the trucks carrying aid before entering Gaza. The U.N., working with Egyptian and Palestinian Red Crescent, will ensure aid goes only to civilians, an Egyptian official and European diplomat told the AP. A U.N. flag will be raised on both sides of the crossing as a sign of protection against airstrikes, they said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: First on CNN: US Navy warship near Yemen intercepts multiple missiles, US officials say | CNN Politics WWW.CNN.COM A US Navy warship operating in the Middle East intercepted multiple projectiles near the coast of Yemen, two US officials told CNN. This is casus belli for Lady Graham to bomb Iran! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 4 hours ago, mclumber1 said: This is casus belli for Lady Graham to bomb Iran! Lots of American assets getting attacked at the moment. These idiots are poking the hornet nest, our hornets are f-18s though. What do they hope to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 This speech by Prince Turki Al-Faisal, former chief of Saudi Arabia's intelligence agency, is definitely worth listening to. View: An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023 STREAMABLE.COM Watch "An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023" on Streamable. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 11 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: This speech by Prince Turki Al-Faisal, former chief of Saudi Arabia's intelligence agency, is definitely worth listening to. View: An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023 STREAMABLE.COM Watch "An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023" on Streamable. Eloquent and civil. Never thought I’d be applauding a Saudi prince. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 I mean yeah But what next 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subzwari1987 Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 28 minutes ago, TUFKAK said: I mean yeah But what next Hopefully your people in Israel can take Netanyanu and kick his ass out the door and the next administration can take a different approach and work with the PA on an approach for peace and prosperity for everyone in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza. It needs to start in the West Bank and they need to pull back the settlers and IDF troops who routinely abuse the Palestinian residents there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 36 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said: Eloquent and civil. Never thought I’d be applauding a Saudi prince. The one part of the speech that I did somewhat roll my eyes at is the notion that "civil insurrection and disobedience" will be sufficient/adequate actions in the cause of Palestinian liberation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 50 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: This speech by Prince Turki Al-Faisal, former chief of Saudi Arabia's intelligence agency, is definitely worth listening to. View: An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023 STREAMABLE.COM Watch "An Pkg-prince Turki Al-faisal 171023" on Streamable. I condemn the Saudi lead air strikes in Yemen that have killed and injured thousands of innocent people. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subzwari1987 Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Massdriver said: I condemn the Saudi lead air strikes in Yemen that have killed and injured thousands of innocent people. Funny he’s talking openly about Saudi Arabia crying over the crimes of Israel when they were this close to establishing relations with Israel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Massdriver said: I condemn the Saudi lead air strikes in Yemen that have killed and injured thousands of innocent people. SomethingsomethingbrokenSaudiclocksomethingsomething ‘Mutiny Brewing’ Inside State Department Over Israel-Palestine Policy WWW.HUFFPOST.COM Morale is low, and some staffers are preparing to formally express their opposition to President Joe Biden's approach, officials told HuffPost. Quote President Joe Biden’s approach to the ongoing violence in Israel and Palestine is fueling mounting tensions at the U.S. government agency most involved in foreign policy: the State Department. Officials told HuffPost that Secretary of State Antony Blinken and his most senior advisers are overlooking widespread internal frustration. Some department staff said they feel as if Blinken and his team are uninterested in their own experts’ advice as they focus on supporting Israel’s expanding operation in Gaza, where the Palestinian militant group Hamas is based. “There’s basically a mutiny brewing within State at all levels,” one State Department official said. Quote Two officials told HuffPost that diplomats are preparing what’s called a “dissent cable,” a document criticizing American policy that goes to the agency’s leaders through a protected internal channel. Such cables are seen within the State Department as consequential statements of serious disagreement at key historical moments. The dissent channel was established amid deep internal conflict during the Vietnam War, and diplomats have since then used it to warn that the U.S. is making dangerous and self-defeating choices abroad. Even though this story is from the Huffington Post, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this "dissent memo" effort within the State Department is very much real, especially after Josh Paul's resignation yesterday. An interview with him for PBS News Hour where the Saudi-led campaign in Yemen is brought up: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 26 minutes ago, Subzwari1987 said: Hopefully your people in Israel can take Netanyanu and kick his ass out the door and the next administration can take a different approach and work with the PA on an approach for peace and prosperity for everyone in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza. It needs to start in the West Bank and they need to pull back the settlers and IDF troops who routinely abuse the Palestinian residents there. If wishes were horses People talk much but say little, none of this will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 25 minutes ago, Massdriver said: I condemn the Saudi lead air strikes in Yemen that have killed and injured thousands of innocent people. It’s only wrong when Israel does it ok. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 24 minutes ago, Subzwari1987 said: Hopefully your people in Israel can take Netanyanu and kick his ass out the door and the next administration can take a different approach and work with the PA on an approach for peace and prosperity for everyone in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza. It needs to start in the West Bank and they need to pull back the settlers and IDF troops who routinely abuse the Palestinian residents there. You'd first have to convince, even Israeli liberals at this point, that doing so wouldn't just result in the West Bank becoming Super Gaza (Hamas take over followed by Israel and Jordan sealing their borders creating another open air prison). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: You'd first have to convince, even Israeli liberals at this point, that doing so wouldn't just result in the West Bank becoming Super Gaza (Hamas take over followed by Israel and Jordan sealing their borders creating another open air prison). Super leftist liberals in Israel are calling for war, nobody is going to tolerate the wolf in their midst. The fix isn’t on Israel and im tired of the west putting it on them. Egypt won’t even allow refugees across but they’re not condemned for it. Shit is ridiculous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Palestine needs a Marshall plan, but good luck convincing privileged westerners of that fact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: The dissent channel was established amid deep internal conflict during the Vietnam War, and diplomats have since then used it to warn that the U.S. is making dangerous and self-defeating choices abroad. Hasn't stopped us since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 46 minutes ago, TUFKAK said: Palestine needs a Marshall plan, but good luck convincing privileged westerners of that fact. I was just making this point to my wife last night, that’s what this place needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Blinken acknowledges Mideast crisis taking toll on staff - POLITICO WWW.POLITICO.COM The chief diplomat sent a note to the State Department as many Muslim staffers have grown unhappy about the U.S. approach to the Israel-Hamas war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 46 minutes ago, Comet said: I was just making this point to my wife last night, that’s what this place needs. Been there done that in Iraq and Afghanistan. You'd need 60k troops to baby sit just Gaza for at least a decade plus a ton of development money, in a situation where a bored Corporal can upend the entire effort by shooting a kid. Japan and Germany worked because they were two countries beat down by fire bombing, 2 nukes, and a realization that the Red Army occupying the place instead would be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 30 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: Been there done that in Iraq and Afghanistan. You'd need 60k troops to baby sit just Gaza for at least a decade plus a ton of development money, in a situation where a bored Corporal can upend the entire effort by shooting a kid. Japan and Germany worked because they were two countries beat down by fire bombing, 2 nukes, and a realization that the Red Army occupying the place instead would be worse. Then fuck it all and move on hedonist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 This polling data is quite surprising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 The guiding principles of Japan and German nationalism were more secular in character, too, and thus I would argue easier to reform through purely economic incentives. Islamic jihadist ideology won't be as responsive, IMO, because it focuses less on the here and now and more on the divine afterlife, to which economic logic doesn't really apply. Basically, the Palestinians not only need better economic prospects, but also IMO something of a religious reformation, if we really want a Japan or German-style pacification to occur. Outside parties can help with the former, but the latter has to come from inside the faith. Although better economic prospects would probably make a reformation more possible than conditions of perpetual squalor. The most peaceful and tolerant forms of Islam appear mostly in economically healthy countries, after all--but then many of its militant forms do, too. It's complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 16 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: So how credible is the claim that one of the main motives behind Hamas’s campaign is a (probably Iran-backed) drive to stop the possible normalization of Israeli-Saudi relations that had seemed to slowly be coming to fruition? I’ve heard the idea bandied about a lot but admittedly have been paying marginal attention to negotiations between the Israelis and the Saudis lately. (I kind of just assume any manner of ‘peace’ or ‘normalization’ initiatives in this region are inevitably doomed nowadays, even though I hope to be wrong someday) I personally don't consider that claim to be very credible at all. Hamas has never needed such an external motivator to engage in "military" action against Israel in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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