General Gaming John Carmack headlines Basedcon, an anti-woke sci-fi convention.

[crispy4000]

37 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Yeah, no. It's not about echo chambers. You can go decades and decades back and see that conservatism has been about ridiculously obviously bigotry for ages. "Wokeism" on the other hand is just a new boogie man word for dipshits.

 

I absolutely won't argue these points.  There's plenty of horribly bigoted conservative views throughout history, and many that do continue into the present in both obvious and subtle ways.

 

Where I won't budge is that present day issues need to be met with better arguments than 'historically these people's views suck.'

 

37 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

The lazy bothsidesism is fucking obnoxious and completely delusional.

 

It's not bothsidesism to point out how polarization has shaped discourse, IMO.

[Xbob42]

12 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Where I won't budge is that present day issues need to be met with better arguments than 'historically these people's views suck.'

 

 

It's not bothsidesism to point out how polarization has changed discourse, IMO.

Ah yes, approach the people intentionally ignoring arguments, facts, science, data, anecdotes, literally anything that qualifies as part of a civil conversation, with.... better arguments? To what end?

 

The game has changed and is now about seizing power by any means necessary, reality doesn't play into the equation for many of these people. And they want to change the rules so that even if they're a minority party that loses every election, they can't actually lose. The "polarization" is just a group of people losing their fucking minds. Is it every single person? No. Of fucking course not, but it's the people in power and the loudest voices in the room.

It's like your roommate shits in your bed on purpose every night and then everyone tries to get you to see it from his perspective. Motherfucker stop shitting on the bed first!

[crispy4000]

46 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Ah yes, approach the people intentionally ignoring arguments, facts, science, data, anecdotes, literally anything that qualifies as part of a civil conversation, with.... better arguments? To what end?

 

Not all conservatives are this stupid.  And there are facts, arguments, anecdotes, etc that don't perfectly align with liberal thought.

 

That's precisely why they should be brought up.  Views should be challenged and checked so that better decisions can be made.  Or at least, made in light of details that one side may be brushing off.

 

46 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

The game has changed and is now about seizing power by any means necessary, reality doesn't play into the equation for many of these people. And they want to change the rules so that even if they're a minority party that loses every election, they can't actually lose. The "polarization" is just a group of people losing their fucking minds. Is it every single person? No. Of fucking course not, but it's the people in power and the loudest voices in the room.

 

Don't want to derail this any further, but I think we still agree more than we don't here.  Politics today suck.

[Guest]

Insulting the people you disagree with is not historically a winning strategy for changing minds. It just makes people feel good in the moment. The long range effects are for people to become more entrenched in their views, and so it is ultimately a self-defeating path of action because the reason you are insulting people is because they believe or do things you don’t want them to believe or do  

[AbsolutSurgen]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Insulting the people you disagree with is not historically a winning strategy for changing minds. It just makes people feel good in the moment. The long range effects are for people to become more entrenched in their views, and so it is ultimately a self-defeating path of action because the reason you are insulting people is because they believe or do things you don’t want them to believe or do  

I don't think the current culture warriors are looking to change people's minds.  They're happy to pick a side in a war, and assume that everyone else is fighting in it.

[Keyser_Soze]

@Commissar SFLUFAN how far can you get?

 

 

[SuperSpreader]

Looking at her clips (just at the list) this seems like just a bunch of old nerds. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

Looking at her clips (just at the list) this seems like just a bunch of old nerds. 

I'm still trying to understand what they did to deserve the vitriol, other than not being left-wing.

[SuperSpreader]

4 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I'm still trying to understand what they did to deserve the vitriol, other than not being left-wing.

 

I mean they're edgelord boomers who don't understand that they're a little racist 

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I mean they're edgelord boomers who don't understand that they're a little racist 

They looked more Gen-X than boomers to me.

I have no idea if they're actually racist, but what did they actually do that was racist?

Or, is it enough that they are middle-aged white people from Texas?

[Ghost_MH]

8 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

They looked more Gen-X than boomers to me.

I have no idea if they're actually racist, but what did they actually do that was racist?

Or, is it enough that they are middle-aged white people from Texas?

 

Getting upset that games, movies, and comics feature more minorities and women; so much so that they started their own convention to celebrate the "brave" creators that stick with "non-woke" white, male protagonists feels pretty racist.

 

I mean, what else does woke mean in regards to games or sci-fi?

[AbsolutSurgen]

7 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Getting upset that games, movies, and comics feature more minorities and women; so much so that they started their own convention to celebrate the "brave" creators that stick with "non-woke" white, male protagonists feels pretty racist.

 

I mean, what else does woke mean in regards to games or sci-fi?

Where did they say any of that?

[stepee]

23 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Getting upset that games, movies, and comics feature more minorities and women; so much so that they started their own convention to celebrate the "brave" creators that stick with "non-woke" white, male protagonists feels pretty racist.

 

I mean, what else does woke mean in regards to games or sci-fi?

 

4 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Where did they say any of that?

 

If anyone was ever curious what the point of using stupid shit like “woke” or “based” and really all the dog whistles and nonsense that fox news and their ilk promote, this is it. This is the entire purpose of all of it. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

 

If anyone was ever curious what the point of using stupid shit like “woke” or “based” and really all the dog whistles and nonsense that fox news and their ilk promote, this is it. This is the entire purpose of all of it. 

Got it, in 2023, you don't actually have to do/say anything racist to be called racist.

[stepee]

3 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Got it, in 2023, you don't actually have to do/say anything racist to be called racist.

 

I’m okay with this being the takeaway actually 

[Xbob42]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

Insulting the people you disagree with is not historically a winning strategy for changing minds.

It's not my job or concern to change the broken minds of these fucking nutjobs, and the idea that anyone's going to reach any more than a small handful of them is the delusional thing I mentioned above. Some of these people are losing all their friends and family and are still sticking to their guns as their world crumbles. As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves. Like I'm gonna dedicate my life to undoing decades of brainwashing for people so stupid they intentionally vote against their own best interests to spite others, lol. I'll continue to champion what I think is good and right and vote for what I see as improving society and the nation at large, but I'm not gonna mollycoddle a bunch of shitwits.

Further, this misses the point where it doesn't matter because they're succeeding in changing how the rules work so it doesn't matter if you "win" or not, for fuck's sake we're so far gone past the point of any of this "change their minds" bullshit to be anywhere near effective.

[Ghost_MH]

28 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Where did they say any of that?

 

What is the "woke propaganda" Basedcon is battling?

[stepee]

I was actually thinking of calling in sick with the woke mind virus today 

[Xbob42]

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean. Someone being intentionally obtuse pretending it's just some guys having an innocent little convention when it's like dogwhistle city. But as long as you don't say "My name is ____ and I am a racist" then you didn't do or say anything racist! Or homophobic, or anti-woman, or any other number of things. It's like... do these people think that fucking works? I mean clearly it works on someone who I assume probably agrees with them, but that's another thing: The absolute spinelessness of it all. Grown fucking adults having to talk in code words because they're too chickenshit to say what they feel. I don't give two shits if people agree with what I'm saying in this thread or anywhere, they can think I'm a dumbass or agree or disagree or think I'm having the opposite effect of what I'd like to happen, I'm still happy to say it and discourse can follow... so why aren't they happy to say what they believe? Are they ashamed? Scared of what, being "cancelled"? It can't be that because everyone knows what the fuck "basedcon" is so you're not even hiding it.

It's the most obvious bullshit out there and the shrimp dicks on these morons for being too afraid to say what they feel and why clearly and without shame is fucking pathetic. I think they're probably mostly racist, bigoted pieces of shit, and I feel great saying that! I don't need to couch it in code words like a fucking bitch.

[Bjomesphat]

34 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Where did they say any of that?

 

What do you think being anti-woke means?

 

From their bullet points:

Quote

Discriminating against white people is racism

 

How many dog whistles do you need? These are crotchety white men upset with the changing landscape in America. And it's not just the diversity, it's the push for equality and equity that really gets their blood boiling.

[Xbob42]

1 minute ago, Bjomesphat said:

 

What do you think being anti-woke means?

 

From their bullet points:

 

How many dog whistles do you need? These are crotchety white men upset with the changing landscape in America. And it's not just the diversity, it's the push for equality and equity that really gets their blood boiling.

 

Dude we've reached a point where people are still questioning motivations once "he was a total nazi and wrote about how much he wanted to kill those he disagreed with and also every inch of his body was covered in swastika tattoos" comes out after a shooting, pretending dogwhistles aren't a real thing is child's play, there is a reality warping field around the thought process that goes into endless goddamn gaslighting.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

It's not my job or concern to change the broken minds of these fucking nutjobs, and the idea that anyone's going to reach any more than a small handful of them is the delusional thing I mentioned above. Some of these people are losing all their friends and family and are still sticking to their guns as their world crumbles. As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves. Like I'm gonna dedicate my life to undoing decades of brainwashing for people so stupid they intentionally vote against their own best interests to spite others, lol. I'll continue to champion what I think is good and right and vote for what I see as improving society and the nation at large, but I'm not gonna mollycoddle a bunch of shitwits.

Further, this misses the point where it doesn't matter because they're succeeding in changing how the rules work so it doesn't matter if you "win" or not, for fuck's sake we're so far gone past the point of any of this "change their minds" bullshit to be anywhere near effective.

Yes, you just made my point. You do these things because it makes you feel good, even though it reinforces the negative beliefs and actions of the people you insult. I get it, that’s why I wrote it  

[Paperclyp]

I don't know if this is useful or not in this discussion, but when pressed on specific issues and potential solutions to those issues outside of political context, most of the country is not all that polarized. The problem is we never get that information packaged to us outside of that context. The extreme right has an outsized megaphone of influence and control in the media, and the media is complicit in the "well let's examine both sides" part of it. Like, the left is like, hey certain people should have rights; the right is like hey, the left is trying to manufacture and surgically change your kids into transgender people, and the NYT is like here's an article called "a day in the life of a pro-children's rights activist (he adores vanilla ice cream!)." 

 

Whereas like, more than 60 percent of the country approves of protecting trans rights (and only a small percentage, like 10 or something is like ardently opposed). Same with abortion, same with common sense gun control, etc. Yet when you watch the news you'd like it's 50/50. 

 

Anyway, I have been trying to be an optimist especially since having children of my own - it's sometimes the only way I can not have a panic attack about their futures - and it does seem like there are signs that the Republicans are just totally out of touch with the though process of the average person. So I have hope they'll cut this shit out after a few more election cycles when they realize nobody actually gives a shit but online weridos. 

 

I think making especially people in power look like absolute morons and calling them names in a profoundly public fashion is just what the doctor ordered though. These are losers and bullies at best, who have been enabled by the organization power of the internet, and they need to be shamed publicly just like Nazis need to be punched in the fuckin face. 

 

[Ghost_MH]

18 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean. Someone being intentionally obtuse pretending it's just some guys having an innocent little convention when it's like dogwhistle city. But as long as you don't say "My name is ____ and I am a racist" then you didn't do or say anything racist! Or homophobic, or anti-woman, or any other number of things. It's like... do these people think that fucking works? I mean clearly it works on someone who I assume probably agrees with them, but that's another thing: The absolute spinelessness of it all. Grown fucking adults having to talk in code words because they're too chickenshit to say what they feel. I don't give two shits if people agree with what I'm saying in this thread or anywhere, I'm still happy to say it... so why aren't they? Are they ashamed? Scared of what, being "cancelled"? It can't be that because everyone knows what the fuck "basedcon" is so you're not even hiding it.

It's the most obvious bullshit out there and the shrimp dicks on these morons for being too afraid to say what they feel and why clearly and without shame is fucking pathetic. I think they're probably mostly racist, bigoted pieces of shit, and I feel great saying that! I don't need to couch it in code words like a fucking bitch.

 

Basedcon sort of gets into it.

 

Quote

Then, starting a few years ago, things changed. Cons became increasingly dominated by a small clique of authoritarian jerks who made them into venues for pushing social justice dogma and, in the name of “inclusiveness,” shut down any opinions that didn’t align with progressive orthodoxy.

 

So over the past few years a bunch of "jerks" pushed for "inclusiveness" and many went along with them and shut down any opinions too the contrary. What does that even mean in this context? They refuse to just say they don't want to be inclusive.

 

9 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Yes, you just made my point. You do these things because it makes you feel good, even though it reinforces the negative beliefs and actions of the people you insult. I get it, that’s why I wrote it  

 

There's only so much coddling grown ass men deserve. This is an entire convention based around fighting the push to improve inclusivity in sci-fi. They literally want fewer women and minorities to show up on screen or within the pages of their comics. That's their entire grievance. What middle of the road, gentle heart approach does that get? These people are spending $300 to listen to John Carmack and his ilk talk about how awful it is that Star Wars went from 90% white men to 70% white men.

[Paperclyp]

I also think the hand wringing of "oh my gosh the evidence shows that if you insult and call people names it won't change minds" thing deserves a hard look at what the fuck is the context here. 

 

If you don't think that shit works on a national will this person get elected / won't they, absolutely that changes minds - maybe not on beliefs in like, oh I think economic policy should be this or whatever, but in terms of who gets elected and will be in power - yes it works. 

 

If you're trying to have a rational discussion with a loved one (or family member you have to put up with), yes you're not going to get anywhere by calling them a racist. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

There's only so much coddling grown ass men deserve.

There is a lot of room in between “coddling” people and insulting them. Like, a Grand Canyon of space. I have quite regular conversations in real life with people on all sorts of topics, of varied degrees of import, and one can hold a person’s feet to the proverbial fire without resorting to insults.

 

 

[Xbob42]

9 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

There is a lot of room in between “coddling” people and insulting them. Like, a Grand Canyon of space. I have quite regular conversations in real life with people on all sorts of topics, of varied degrees of import, and one can hold a person’s feet to the proverbial fire without resorting to insults.

 

They're never expected to reach out and have a civil conversation with anyone on the other side, happily insult and literally make up heinous bullshit like trans or gay people being "groomers" and yet I'm expected to sit them down at the table and calmly explain to them why no, Bill, it's actually bad that you want these people dead or want to ban books or close down libraries or support politicians who literally want to destroy things like public education?

If someone's reasonable to begin with, great! But I'm not going to go out of my way to not offend people who thrive on being offensive pieces of shit.

[Guest]

The false dichotomies are really overplayed here, fellas. 

[Keyser_Soze]

I've mentioned it before but using the term woke, in the way they use it, is basically saying the n word but perhaps with a wider umbrella. @Ghost_MH broke it down pretty well. To me it is more offensive to say woke and all this nonsense than be up front about it. Like if someone said, "hey I don't like you because you're black" then thanks for making your intentions clear. Saying something is woke is just tiptoeing around it trying to put up a front.

 

And let's not be coy about it folks who are saying, "I don't know what it means, why is this thing bad?" Context matters.

 

If I said, "@Commissar SFLUFAN is a very akbubuq man. With his chiseled jaw, bright blue eyes and stoic expression. He's very akubuq." You could figure out what akbubuq was.

[stepee]

2 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

I've mentioned it before but using the term woke, in the way they use it, is basically saying the n word but perhaps with a wider umbrella. @Ghost_MH broke it down pretty well. To me it is more offensive to say woke and all this nonsense than be up front about it. Like if someone said, "hey I don't like you because you're black" then thanks for making your intentions clear. Saying something is woke is just tiptoeing around it trying to put up a front.

 

And let's not be coy about it folks who are saying, "I don't know what it means, why is this thing bad?" Context matters.

 

If I said, "@Commissar SFLUFAN is a very akbubuq man. With his chiseled jaw, bright blue eyes and stoic expression. He's very akubuq." You could figure out what akbubuq was.

 

Fuckable?

[MarSolo]

I’m sorry, but anyone who uses the word “woke” as a negative automatically gets dismissed from me. In other words:

 

 

People who haven’t even seen the latest Indiana Jones movie are calling it “woke propaganda” because the woman from Fleabag who is working Indy seems like a capable woman.

 

I’m sorry, did anyone of these incels ever SEE Raiders of the Lost Ark? Marion Ravenwood’s first scene is her drinking some fat guy under the table, and then punching Indy in the face the first moment she sees him. THEN she helps him fight off the Nazis that come to her bar. Seems pretty competent to me.

 

Anyway, back to this subject regarding Carmack, reading the book Masters of Doom, both him and Romero seemed like opposite sides of a coin that I would gladly flush down the toilet. I appreciate what they did for the industry, but Je Suis Krist, those guys suck.

[AbsolutSurgen]

37 minutes ago, Bjomesphat said:

 

What do you think being anti-woke means?

 

From their bullet points:

 

How many dog whistles do you need? These are crotchety white men upset with the changing landscape in America. And it's not just the diversity, it's the push for equality and equity that really gets their blood boiling.

Equality and Equity as they are currently defined frequently come into direct conflict with each other.

 

Rejecting Equity and identity politics as the objective of society (which is what "woke" usually refers to), is different than rejecting Equality.  Yes, there are absolutely racists who throw around the term "woke".  There are also a fair amount of folks who aren't comfortable with identity politics.

 

It is possible to neither be an adherent to marxism and identity politics, nor a right-wing Nazi.  There are a lot of people in the middle.

[ort]

Yeah, sorry. fuck these people.

 

If anyone says "woke" around me, I instantly ignore anything else they have to say, because they are a dumb fucking idiot unworthy of even a single second of my care or attention in any way other than to push back aggressively on whatever stupid ass shit they are saying.

 

They want a fucking culture war they can fucking have one. They are wrong stupid dumb fucking idiots unworthy of an ounce of compassion. Fuck em, fuck em all.

 

If you went to this stupid con, then fuck you too. You're a piece of shit. You not gonna change my mind. If that makes me as bad as them, so be it. These people are monsters who are actively harming my friends and loved ones. They want a fucking fight, they can fucking have one.

 

History will not judge these people well.

[Ghost_MH]

57 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

There is a lot of room in between “coddling” people and insulting them. Like, a Grand Canyon of space. I have quite regular conversations in real life with people on all sorts of topics, of varied degrees of import, and one can hold a person’s feet to the proverbial fire without resorting to insults.

 

I've spent my entire career tiptoeing around racists with fragile egos. Just old white dudes that refuse to believe the short brown guy might actually know what he's talking about. Guys that would and have fired me for daring to be right when I tried to warn them their projects will fail.

 

I've worked 20+ years in a tech industry that is notoriously hostile to people like me. Luckily, I'm wildly patient, so I can usually get by without insulting anyone.

 

That said, I don't fault anyone for calling a spade a spade. My patience comes from knowing I have kids to take care of and a career in a field full of people that would rather I not be there. That's not everyone. I don't think anyone is trying to win hearts and minds there. Can you blame people for writing off racists too afraid to even admit they're racist?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

I've worked 20+ years in a tech industry that is notoriously hostile to people like me. Luckily, I'm wildly patient, so I can usually get by without insulting anyone.

 

That said, I don't fault anyone for calling a spade a spade. My patience comes from knowing I have kids to take care of and a career in a field full of people that would rather I not be there. That's not everyone. I don't think anyone is trying to win hearts and minds there. Can you blame people for writing off racists too afraid to even admit they're racist?

Don't sell yourself short; patience is a Choi e a person makes to implement in any given situation.

 

And I don’t fault anybody for insulting people who say and do bad things, my point is that it is self-defeating. Your experience in work is evidence of this also on a smaller scale. Would you have a career as long as yours, able to take care of your children on your own, if you just got into the muck when people behaved badly?

 

And whether you realize it or not, your existence in the lives of those people altered their perceptions of the world for the better. There are lasting impacts that are hard to see at the micro level, but are meaningful in the aggregate.