Can France Resist the Woke invasion?

[SuperSpreader]

22 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I know what @Joeis talking about. My top guy in my remodeling business doesn’t speak hardly a word of English besides random construction related words. His is from El Salvador, but has three American children. They don’t do anything outside of the Spanish speaking community. Their kids don’t even play little league sports with the English speaking kids. 
 

 

 

Why does it matter? Clearly you hired him and can afford someone who speaks English. Why should he need to "get more integrated." I know plenty of people like this too, and being able to hop between cultural and societal circles being a Wealthy Real Housewive in Highland Park is no different than being a Non-English speaking immigrant. They are both equally culturally self isolating. The only difference is the setting. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

i mean there's clearly a difference between "integrating in society" and "participating in commerce" admittedly in the US this line is VERY blurry (we really don't really have a culture/society outside of commerce)

[SuperSpreader]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

i mean there's clearly a difference between "integrating in society" and "participating in commerce" admittedly in the US this line is VERY blurry (we really don't really have a culture/society outside of commerce)

 

I agree- I don't know what that means, society. Speaking to someone not from your group? Is that how we're defining participation/integration?

 

If so there's a lot of us who need to do that, not just non-English speaking immigrants. You think San Franciscans participate in society outside their bubble anymore than a house cleaner?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

That guy pays sales tax and other service fees and literally remodels things as part of your business. 

 

How is that not an integral part of society? He doesn't need to go join the Rotary Club to be a part of society. 

Besides, like you said, do we (the majority white, English speaking portion of society) really make it worthwhile (to say nothing of welcoming) for people like him to integrate into the rest of culture?

Being deeply involved in the economy doesn’t itself make you deeply involved in society. They aren’t the same thing, though the economy is part of a society.

[Zaku3]

2 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I agree- I don't know what that means, society. Speaking to someone not from your group? Is that how we're defining participation/integration?

 

If so there's a lot of us who need to do that, not just non-English speaking immigrants. You think San Franciscans participate in society outside their bubble anymore than a house cleaner?

 

I think he is referring to our society being so focused on commerce it's basically focused on consumption. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

Why does it matter? Clearly you hired him and can afford someone who speaks English. Why should he need to "get more integrated." I know plenty of people like this too, and being able to hop between cultural and societal circles being a Wealthy Real Housewive in Highland Park is no different than being a Non-English speaking immigrant. They are both equally culturally self isolating. The only difference is the setting. 

Being cutoff from, for really any reason, from the society around you is not good for you. It isn’t good for your mental or emotional health. It isn’t good for your economic health. Being integrated into the society around you doesn’t mean you have to give up all the things that are a part of your “identity” up to that point. To me it is like a successful marriage, you take on some characteristics of your spouse, they take on some characteristics of you, and together you even forge new qualities that neither separately had before.

 

This isn’t easy to do, but it is necessary.

[SuperSpreader]

3 minutes ago, Zaku3 said:

 

I think he is referring to our society being so focused on commerce it's basically focused on consumption. 

I understand, I agree with what he's saying. Based on this I don't see how some of the examples here aren't already participating. 

[SuperSpreader]

Just now, sblfilms said:

Being cutoff from, for really any reason, from the society around you is not good for you. It isn’t good for your mental or emotional health. It isn’t good for your economic health. Being integrated into the society around you doesn’t mean you have to give up all the things that are a part of your “identity” up to that point. To me it is like a successful marriage, you take on some characteristics of your spouse, they take on some characteristics of you, and together you even forge new qualities that neither separately had before.

 

This isn’t easy to do, but it is necessary.

But isn't he participating by putting up with you? ♥️

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, SuperSpreader said:

But isn't he participating by putting up with you? ♥️

surprised he didn't "go back home"

[Joe]

7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Being cutoff from, for really any reason, from the society around you is not good for you. It isn’t good for your mental or emotional health. It isn’t good for your economic health. Being integrated into the society around you doesn’t mean you have to give up all the things that are a part of your “identity” up to that point. To me it is like a successful marriage, you take on some characteristics of your spouse, they take on some characteristics of you, and together you even forge new qualities that neither separately had before.

 

This isn’t easy to do, but it is necessary.

Yep as you can tell SS doesn’t actually care that these folks are miserable because they are isolated.

[stepee]

lol

[stepee]

I do have to be skeptical of people who buy into the bogey men like this though, because I don’t think you truly believe this stuff unless you kind of want to. And if you want to believe that there’s this big scary cancel culture woke anti fascist mob out to get you, I question some parts of your morality.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Joe said:

Yep as you can tell SS doesn’t actually care that these folks are miserable because they are isolated.

Anecdotal and all that, but whatevs, I look at how much better my mother in law and her younger siblings have things in America than their older siblings. A lot of it has to do with their willingness to learn English and engage with the culture of their adopted country. You can also see the benefits in the lives of the second and third generations of each. My MIL is the middle kid of her 7 siblings and the first of them that became at all proficient in English and the difference in outcomes for her children vs. the older siblings kids is pretty stark. 
 

It isn’t the only thing that matters, and like I said before, I understand the fear that keeps many who live here illegally away from anything other than economic participation in our society.

[Kal-El814]

Are places like Chinatowns assimilated or isolated? Or places like India Square in Jersey City? These are American places populated by American people doing things in America that appear foreign or different to me because I’m not Chinese / Indian, etc.

 

I do not mean to suggest that people here are doing this specifically, but most of the people IRL I’ve run into who want immigrants to “assimilate” tend to mean “speak English, act white, and don’t be obviously ‘ethnic.’”

 

It gets back to the white / Christian / straight / cis default, which also generally includes “suburban / rural,” too. It’s not THAT long ago that “urban” was used to refer to black people, as if black people exclusively lived in the city and acted street.

 

2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Anecdotal and all that, but whatevs, I look at how much better my mother in law and her younger siblings have things in America than their older siblings. A lot of it has to do with their willingness to learn English and engage with the culture of their adopted country. You can also see the benefits in the lives of the second and third generations of each. My MIL is the middle kid of her 7 siblings and the first of them that became at all proficient in English and the difference in outcomes for her children vs. the older siblings kids is pretty stark. 
 

It isn’t the only thing that matters, and like I said before, I understand the fear that keeps many who live here illegally away from anything other than economic participation in our society.

 

These are complicated issues. My grandparents on my mom’s side were first generation immigrants. They deliberately did not teach my mom / my aunts either language they spoke but they also belonged to local clubs whose membership was based on their familial country of origin. I’m not pretending to know where the sweet spot is, and even if I had a concrete opinion I don’t think I could divorce myself from a white guy’s perspective enough to feel like I was coming from a place of honesty.

[CayceG]

28 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Being deeply involved in the economy doesn’t itself make you deeply involved in society. They aren’t the same thing, though the economy is part of a society.

 

That's true. 

 

But I'm mainly pushing back on the line about "they aren't even parts of society!"

 

What does that mean to the people making the criticism? And at the end of the day, my point about the dominant culture making it hard for people outside of it to join in is really the main barrier. And that's not on any sort of external group to fix. That has to come from within the dominant culture. 

[mclumber1]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Anecdotal and all that, but whatevs, I look at how much better my mother in law and her younger siblings have things in America than their older siblings. A lot of it has to do with their willingness to learn English and engage with the culture of their adopted country. You can also see the benefits in the lives of the second and third generations of each. My MIL is the middle kid of her 7 siblings and the first of them that became at all proficient in English and the difference in outcomes for her children vs. the older siblings kids is pretty stark. 
 

It isn’t the only thing that matters, and like I said before, I understand the fear that keeps many who live here illegally away from anything other than economic participation in our society.

 

Growing up, I had some Mexican immigrant neighbors.  To this day, the mother doesn't speak English, but the father can speak enough English to be good acquaintances with my dad.  Their children though - all born in America, are all incredibly successful.  The youngest is an investment banker (or something like that), and are fully integrated into American culture, while still maintaining the the connections to their heritage. 

[Joe]

1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said:

Are places like Chinatowns assimilated or isolated? Or places like India Square in Jersey City? These are American places populated by American people doing things in America that appear foreign or different to me because I’m not Chinese / Indian, etc.

 

I do not mean to suggest that people here are doing this specifically, but most of the people IRL I’ve run into who want immigrants to “assimilate” tend to mean “speak English, act white, and don’t be obviously ‘ethnic.’”

 

It gets back to the white / Christian / straight / cis default, which also generally includes “suburban / rural,” too. It’s not THAT long ago that “urban” was used to refer to black people, as if black people exclusively lived in the city and acted street.

 

 

These are complicated issues. My grandparents on my mom’s side were first generation immigrants. They deliberately did not teach my mom / my aunts either language they spoke but they also belonged to local clubs whose membership was based on their familial country of origin. I’m not pretending to know where the sweet spot is, and even if I had a concrete opinion I don’t think I could divorce myself from a white guy’s perspective enough to feel like I was coming from a place of honesty.

 

If I go to India Square in Jersey City (and I have MANY times), I will be spoken to in English. If I go to Jackson Heights in Queens, haha not a fucking chance.

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

1 hour ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I agree- I don't know what that means, society. Speaking to someone not from your group? Is that how we're defining participation/integration?

 

If so there's a lot of us who need to do that, not just non-English speaking immigrants. You think San Franciscans participate in society outside their bubble anymore than a house cleaner?

 

Ideally you have a 'monocultural core' which individuals then blend together with their subculture of choice.  This prevents balkanization and minimizes societal friction but allows for productive creolization.  Things like having a lingua franca everyone can speak (like, say, English) help with this, along with some universally accepted cultural norms/practices. (like, say, a belief or adherence to government via liberal democracy)

 

The problem is defining that 'monocultural core' in a way that doesn't make it mutually exclusive with some particular subculture. (I would say specifically an ethno-religious subculture, but that's another debate)  For example, an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country can learn English without eradicating their Latino cultural identity; but a Muslim from Qatar or Sikh from India can't really adopt Christianity without eradicating their ethno-religious identity.

 

Which is one reason why I personally have no problem with stuff like requiring non-native speakers to learn English in public schools, but am also pretty wary of things like school-sponsored prayer in said public schools.

 

As b_m_b_m mentioned, the task of defining the monocultural national core is also complicated by the fact that the US has a somewhat looser and more minimal set of 'universal cultural norms' compared to many other countries.  And the fact that certain groups want to simply equate it with their own cultural heritage.

 

 

[Kal-El814]

26 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

If I go to India Square in Jersey City (and I have MANY times), I will be spoken to in English. If I go to Jackson Heights in Queens, haha not a fucking chance.

 

I’ve been spoken to in English when I got lost wandering around Phnom Penh, people speaking the lingua franca of commerce isn’t necessarily an indicator of cultural assimilation, but I take your point.

[Joe]

13 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

 

Ideally you have a 'monocultural core' which individuals then blend together with their subculture of choice.  This prevents balkanization and minimizes societal friction but allows for productive creolization.  Things like having a lingua franca everyone can speak (like, say, English) help with this, along with some universally accepted cultural norms/practices. (like, say, a belief or adherence to government via liberal democracy)

 

The problem is defining that 'monocultural core' in a way that doesn't make it mutually exclusive with some particular subculture. (I would say specifically an ethno-religious subculture, but that's another debate)  For example, an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country can learn English without eradicating their Latino cultural identity; but a Muslim from Qatar or Sikh from India can't really adopt Christianity without eradicating their ethno-religious identity.

 

Which is one reason why I personally have no problem with stuff like requiring non-native speakers to learn English in public schools, but am also pretty wary of things like school-sponsored prayer in said public schools.

 

As b_m_b_m mentioned, the task of defining the monocultural national core is also complicated by the fact that the US has a somewhat looser and more minimal set of 'universal cultural norms' compared to many other countries.  And the fact that certain groups want to simply equate it with their own cultural heritage.

 

 

More posts like these and less doom posting about polls please .

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I’ve been spoken to in English when I got lost wandering around Phnom Penh, people speaking the lingua franca of commerce isn’t necessarily an indicator of cultural assimilation, but I take your point.

Indicator, no, but effectively a prerequisite of basic integration into society is shared language. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, CayceG said:

 

That guy pays sales tax and other service fees and literally remodels things as part of your business. 

 

How is that not an integral part of society? He doesn't need to go join the Rotary Club to be a part of society. 

Besides, like you said, do we (the majority white, English speaking portion of society) really make it worthwhile (to say nothing of welcoming) for people like him to integrate into the rest of culture?

EXACTLY.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I agree- I don't know what that means, society. Speaking to someone not from your group? Is that how we're defining participation/integration?

 

If so there's a lot of us who need to do that, not just non-English speaking immigrants. You think San Franciscans participate in society outside their bubble anymore than a house cleaner?

That's why I posed the question in the first place as I have no idea what "contributing to American society in a meaningful way" means. Apparently it means learning English? Everybody finds their bubble and sticks to it. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

Yep as you can tell SS doesn’t actually care that these folks are miserable because they are isolated.

Wait immigrants who stay within their communities and don't integrate are miserable? Interesting take.

[Bloodporne]

Out of all the facets of my immigration experience, I've never viewed learning the language as part of assimilation. It's a fundamental tool and separate from your identity, beliefs etc. in my opinion. First and foremost, this should be for your own sake. "Your community" as an immigrant can be full of predatory vultures and you need to start learning to understand your new world, and the legalities that you're about to wrestle with for years, as soon as possible. This is all my personal experience but my pool of immediate friends here consists mainly of immigrants and we've had this conversation in group settings several times. The one fact everyone always agrees with each other on is that you have to learn the language. It doesn't matter if you like it, how it opposes your views, what historical beef you have with it, whatever it may be...it is what it is. Being an immigrant is incredibly isolating and mentally challenging and refusing to learn the language helps nobody at all and least of all yourself. 

 

Edit: And no, I don't believe you owe anyone cultural assimilation, least of all in the USA. The reason why being @Signifyin(g)Monkey's post. I'm nowhere near as smart as that dude.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

That's why I posed the question in the first place as I have no idea what "contributing to American society in a meaningful way" means. Apparently it means learning English? Everybody finds their bubble and sticks to it. 

You used quotes around a sentence @Joenever wrote. But I understand your reaction if that is your interpretation of what he did write.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

Out of all the facets of my immigration experience, I've never viewed learning the language as part of assimilation. It's a fundamental tool and separate from your identity, beliefs etc. in my opinion. First and foremost, this should be for your own sake. "Your community" as an immigrant can be full of predatory vultures and you need to start learning to understand your new world, and the legalities that you're about to wrestle with for years, as soon as possible. This is all my personal experience but my pool of immediate friends here consists mainly of immigrants and we've had this conversation in group settings several times. The one fact everyone always agrees with each other on is that you have to learn the language. It doesn't matter if you like it, how it opposes your views, what historical beef you have with it, whatever it may be...it is what it is. Being an immigrant is incredibly isolating and mentally challenging and refusing to learn the language helps nobody at all and least of all yourself. 

Thank you for giving your first hand experience. This is exactly the position all of my in-laws from Mexico share.

[Joe]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Wait immigrants who stay within their communities and don't integrate are miserable? Interesting take.

Many are, yes.

 

What I can offer here are my insights from having worked a decade in the restaurant business.
 

For example, working in the kitchen sucks in the NYC restaurant business. You make minimum wage or $2 or $3 extra an hour if you are lucky. Every single person that worked in the kitchen couldn’t speak English. These folks were lucky to take home $500-$600 dollars a week net. Most had drinking problems because the work was tough and they didn’t see any kind of future for themselves.

 

But those that worked as servers or bussers? Completely different! They could speak English and made more money for less work than the kitchen workers. Just because of how weird the tipping system is. A few of these folks were illegals that had taught themselves English over time in the US, but there were also many children of immigrants who were fully fluent in both English and Spanish. These folks had assimilated by virtue of being born and raised here. They had not lost any of the culture of their parents, however they were able to also interact with the clientele and were full-blooded Americans. 
 

Mind you we all used to hang out together in Queens after work, but you could always tell the kitchen workers were struggling a lot more simply because they were not able to speak English.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Joe said:

Many are, yes.

 

What I can offer here are my insights from having worked a decade in the restaurant business.
 

For example, working in the kitchen sucks in the NYC restaurant business. You make minimum wage or $2 or $3 extra an hour if you are lucky. Every single person that worked in the kitchen couldn’t speak English. These folks were lucky to take home $500-$600 dollars a week net. Most had drinking problems because the work was tough and they didn’t see any kind of future for themselves.

 

But those that worked as servers or bussers? Completely different! They could speak English and made more money for less work than the kitchen workers. Just because of how weird the tipping system is. A few of these folks were illegals that had taught themselves English over time in the US, but there were also many children of immigrants who were fully fluent in both English and Spanish. These folks had assimilated by virtue of being born and raised here. They had not lost any of the culture of their parents, however they were able to also interact with the clientele and were full-blooded Americans. 
 

Mind you we all used to hang out together in Queens after work, but you could always tell the kitchen workers were struggling a lot more simply because they were not able to speak English.

All I'll say is that the word "Immigrant" doesn't mean "Spanish or Latin American" and the existence of ethnic enclaves like Koreatown, Chinatown, Little Ethiopia, Little Armenia and countless others might belie the notion that immigrants who stick to their own are "miserable". I would love to see how one of my really good friends who is Somali and is very passionate about this issue would react to this notion. It seems you're differentiating from English speakers vs non-English speakers? Because I have lived in America my whole life and have no idea what "American Culture" even is. I know what conservatives and Fox news want people to THINK it is but this country is VERY different depending on what part you live in and all of it is uniquely "American". Nuyoricans in the Bronx are just as American as Red necks in the South. So when you guys talk about assimilating into American culture I really have no idea what you're talking about besides learning to speak English. America really doesn't HAVE a culture to assimilate to despite what those on the right would have you believe. In my humble opnion anyway. But I'm a black man who was raised Muslim so my take may be a bit different than most 

[Joe]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

All I'll say is that the word "Immigrant" doesn't mean "Spanish or Latin American" and the existence of ethnic enclaves like Koreatown, Chinatown, Little Ethiopia, Little Armenia and countless others might belie the notion that immigrants who stick to their own are "miserable". I would love to see how one of my really good friends who is Somali and is very passionate about this issue would react to this notion. It seems you're differentiating from English speakers vs non-English speakers? Because I have lived in America my whole life and have no idea what "American Culture" even is. I know what conservatives and Fox news want people to THINK it is but this country is VERY different depending on what part you live in and all of it is uniquely "American". Nuyoricans in the Bronx are just as American as Red necks in the South. So when you guys talk about assimilating into American culture I really have no idea what you're talking about besides learning to speak English. America really doesn't HAVE a culture to assimilate to despite what those on the right would have you believe. In my humble opnion anyway. But I'm a black man who was raised Muslim so my take may be a bit different than most 

I’ve clarified a couple times that I’m mainly talking about being able to speak English.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

4 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

no idea what "American Culture" even is.

its what you purchase.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

its what you purchase.

EXACTLY. That's about it.

 

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

I’ve clarified a couple times that I’m mainly talking about being able to speak English.

Which is why I asked for clarification because I wasn't sure that's what you were talking about. I could make an case that non being able to speak English when you have ethnic enclaves that you can function and socialize in may mitigate some of this misery you're talking about (See Chinatown, Koreatown etc.) But that's a different argument.

[Joe]

There’s also something to be said for the fact that many who are in those enclaves stay in those enclaves because they know they don’t really have a choice in the matter. They can’t actually leave and function as they would like somewhere else. Whereas those who can communicate effectively in English can (and do!) change communities with ease.

[Guest]

It is odd that people who regularly criticize what is obviously American culture (our shared social norms and customs) then turn around and pretend there is no such thing as American culture. 

 

Though I don’t think @Joeeven wrote “American culture” in his posts…

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Joe said:

There’s also something to be said for the fact that many who are in those enclaves stay in those enclaves because they know they don’t really have a choice in the matter. They can’t actually leave and function as they would like somewhere else. Whereas those who can communicate effectively in English can (and do!) change communities with ease.

What about those that can speak English but stay in those enclaves anyway?