Television The Falcon and the Winter Soldier OT - It's the Same but Black!

[skillzdadirecta]

39 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

@skillzdadirecta

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As far as Eli Bradley goes, I'm not really sure. He seems like an obvious choice for a Young Avengers team up if/when that happens. He could also just be sitting on the sidelines and get bright back or recast in the future if Disney ever needs to replace Anthony Mackie and bring in a new Captain America in.

 

I run under the assumption that Disney has replacements in mind for a lot of their core heroes even if they don't exactly match up with their counterparts in the comics.

 

I'm sure they have a lot of replacements in mind too. Fiege once said that they had the broadstrokes of the MCCU planned to 2029 or something like that. I'd guess both

 

Spoiler

Thunderbolts AND Young Avengers would be part of that plan as well as The Champions which they could just combine with The Young Avengers.

 

as far as 

 

Spoiler

Zemo goes, I'm sure Valentina could think of a way to compel him to join. He's obssessed with people with power not using that power to take advantage of those without so I could see him joining for his own reasons and him and Val constantly having a battle of wits. And if he's operating under the Citizen V identity, there's no reason for the Wakandans to know he would be working for the US government... until they find out of course 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

Well the government that she dedicated her life to fucked her over and put her on the run for over 7 years. Compounded by the effects of the blip and being abandoned by the remaining Avengers. I would assume that changes a person. If you got fucked by an institute that badly then they were like "oops our bad, want your old job back?". How would you feel?

You took the bait 

[Ghost_MH]

6 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

Well the government that she dedicated her life to fucked her over and put her on the run for over 7 years. Compounded by the effects of the blip and being abandoned by the remaining Avengers. I would assume that changes a person. If you got fucked by an institute that badly then they were like "oops our bad, want your old job back?". How would you feel?

 

This is basically where I stand...

Spoiler

She earned the pardon, but she only got it because Sam went to bat for her. She should have earned that pardon on her own merits, but the US government just forgot she exists and left her a fugitive for years. She built a new life for herself and has found quite a bit of success. I don't see what incentive she has to rejoin SHIELD, especially assuming she aware of all their dirty laundry.

 

If the argument is that she should remain loyal to the country she just happened to be born in because otherwise her dead aunt would be very disappointmed, then that's a shit argument. The rich and powerful even in the real world don't really care much about patriotism. I don't see why the rich and powerful in the MCU would.

 

[Kal-El814]

Spoiler

She hooked up with Captain America who went back in time to fuck her aunt. That changes you.

 

[Reputator]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

You took the bait 

 

My genuine opinion is "bait" now.

 

58 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

She earned the pardon, but she only got it because Sam went to bat for her. She should have earned that pardon on her own merits, but the US government just forgot she exists and left her a fugitive for years. She built a new life for herself and has found quite a bit of success. I don't see what incentive she has to rejoin SHIELD, especially assuming she aware of all their dirty laundry.

 

If the argument is that she should remain loyal to the country she just happened to be born in because otherwise her dead aunt would be very disappointmed, then that's a shit argument. The rich and powerful even in the real world don't really care much about patriotism. I don't see why the rich and powerful in the MCU would.

 

She may have no personal incentive as far as riches or power, but my argument was more she chose money over the right thing. She doesn't see the people that went to bat for her as any sort of redemption, and doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing even for their sake. Is she just bad now? Like, basically irredeemable?

[skillzdadirecta]

12 minutes ago, Reputator said:

 

My genuine opinion is "bait" now.

You seemed to be premptively antagonistic towards any responses to your post that didn't agree with you so yeah, it seemed like bait to me. If I read that wrong, my bad.

Spoiler

I don't think Sharon is Irredeemably bad now at all... she still saved Sam when she didn't have to. She seems to be simply out for herself now which would be the natural reaction to someone who felt like they had been betrayed by a cause they selflessly served. I don't think that makes Cap a "poor judge of character". He's not omnipotent and people change.

 

[NeoJoe]

So now that the show is over can we tackle one of the greatest mysteries? Where the hell did Captain's shield come from in the first place? How did old Steve Rogers even have a shield to give Sam? Thanos destroyed his shield in Endgame.

 

I get that we're to assume the Wakandans just made him a new one somehow but I think it's weird he had it again at the end of Endgame to begin with. lol

[skillzdadirecta]

2 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

So now that the show is over can we tackle one of the greatest mysteries? Where the hell did Captain's shield come from in the first place? How did old Steve Rogers even have a shield to give Sam? Thanos destroyed his shield in Endgame.

 

I get that we're to assume the Wakandans just made him a new one somehow but I think it's weird he had it again at the end of Endgame to begin with. lol

I always thought Cap got it from some point in the past before it was destroyed. 

[Reputator]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

You seemed to be premptively antagonistic towards any responses to your post that didn't agree with you so yeah, it seemed like bait to me. If I read that wrong, my bad.

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I don't think Sharon is Irredeemably bad now at all... she still saved Sam when she didn't have to. She seems to be simply out for herself now which would be the natural reaction to someone who felt like they had been betrayed by a cause they selflessly served. I don't think that makes Cap a "poor judge of character". He's not omnipotent and people change.

 

 

Wasn't antagonizing at all. It's more a response to past experience on how my posts are usually received around here.

 

I'm finding I struggle a lot with wild character swings that are explained, but not shown. A good example of a character swing that I think was done well was Hawkeye becoming Ronin, when the movie showed the moment that triggered the change that would happen, and it was powerfully done.

 

This show obviously can't be to the level of polish as the films, but I feel like I have to think about the change Sharon went through in cold logical terms, as opposed to "feeling" it if that makes sense. That disconnect causes the characterization to feel fake, to me.

[Kal-El814]

2 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

So now that the show is over can we tackle one of the greatest mysteries? Where the hell did Captain's shield come from in the first place? How did old Steve Rogers even have a shield to give Sam? Thanos destroyed his shield in Endgame.

 

I get that we're to assume the Wakandans just made him a new one somehow but I think it's weird he had it again at the end of Endgame to begin with. lol

 

Lots of questions about the alternate reality Cap went to. I wonder if we’ll get any answers with Phase 4 potentially dabbling in the multiverse / quantum realms.

[Guest]

Should I watch this? Don’t find either lead particularly interesting

[Ghost_MH]

51 minutes ago, Reputator said:

 

My genuine opinion is "bait" now.

 

 

She may have no personal incentive as far as riches or power, but my argument was more she chose money over the right thing. She doesn't see the people that went to bat for her as any sort of redemption, and doesn't seem interested in doing the right thing even for their sake. Is she just bad now? Like, basically irredeemable?

 

She's not even close to irredeemable. She's not killing anyone for funsies. Why would she see the Sam going to bat for her as redemption? She had nothing to redeem. She did what she thought was right and was hung out to dry by the government she was dedicated her life trying to defend. Why would she need redemption? These are world governments that are now labeling previously legal residents as refugees and rounding them up at gun point to toss in camps away from the home they've built over the last few years. The only reason they didn't go ahead with the vote is because new Captain America embarrassed them all on international TV immediately after capturing the terrorists they failed to capture.

[Kal-El814]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Should I watch this? Don’t find either lead particularly interesting

 

If you don’t find the leads or their characters interesting, I imagine the series would be a hard sell. It’s a lot of time with them and a somewhat non-compelling villain group.

[Ghost_MH]

7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Should I watch this? Don’t find either lead particularly interesting

 

They both put on pretty spectacular performances. Maybe not Elizabeth Olsen levels in Wandavision, but still very good ones. It's good. I'm glad Disney kept the series short and tight and so managed to find some time to breath here and there. I feel they also did a great job exploring the repercussions of a black Captain America. This wasn't a subject just glossed over given the current political climate and I'm happy they handled it as well as they did.

[Kal-El814]

2 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

They both put on pretty spectacular performances. Maybe not Elizabeth Olsen levels in Wandavision, but still very good ones. It's good. I'm glad Disney kept the series short and tight and so managed to find some time to breath here and there. I feel they also did a great job exploring the repercussions of a black Captain America. This wasn't a subject just glossed over given the current political climate and I'm happy they handled it as well as they did.

 

Yeah, I will say that Mackie and Stan have more to work with than they have in any of the movies and they do good work here.

[NeoJoe]

So does Val work for the government? She was suiting up US Agent in that same room he got reprimanded in.

 

I overall really liked this show. When I first heard of these D+ series, this is on par with what I was expecting. Fun action, fleshes out the stories from the movies and introduces cool new things. WV on the other hand, blew my fucking mind. Practically every episode left me stunned and when they name dropped the Scarlet Witch, I screamed. When Sam finally got called CA and John got named US Agent, I was like "yeah ok, about time."

 

Sam and Bucky got their happy endings, rainbows and sunshine and all is good (except Sharon of course). Meanwhile poor Wanda...

 

With Loki playing with time, I'm hoping for things to be more in line with WV for my liking. So I'm excited!

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

14 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

So does Val work for the government? She was suiting up US Agent in that same room he got reprimanded in.

 

I overall really liked this show. When I first heard of these D+ series, this is on par with what I was expecting. Fun action, fleshes out the stories from the movies and introduces cool new things. WV on the other hand, blew my fucking mind. Practically every episode left me stunned and when they name dropped the Scarlet Witch, I screamed. When Sam finally got called CA and John got named US Agent, I was like "yeah ok, about time."

 

Sam and Bucky got their happy endings, rainbows and sunshine and all is good (except Sharon of course). Meanwhile poor Wanda...

 

With Loki playing with time, I'm hoping for things to be more in line with WV for my liking. So I'm excited!

 

 

 

This is definitely more of what I was expecting with these series. In the grand scheme of things, everyone is back to where you'd assume they are after End Game. The only difference is Sharon, but she was already assumed dead. You could skip this series and go to the next movie without missing a beat.

 

I'm not sure the same is true for Wandavision. That series has far longer lasting implications for future movies than Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

[Kamusha]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

Should I watch this? Don’t find either lead particularly interesting

Watch the opening action scene of the first episode. It’s super expensive, features real stunts, and kinda hard to believe it was shot for television.

 

They clearly blew the whole show’s budget on that scene because the rest of the show feels kinda small. Lots of scenes in back alleyways and empty warehouses. I dipped out halfway through.

[skillzdadirecta]

Looks like this is leading to the next Captain America movie

 

'Captain America 4' in the Works With 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Showrunner Malcolm Spellman (Exclusive)

WWW.HOLLYWOODREPORTER.COM

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'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' showrunner Malcolm Spellman will ben the script for 'Captain America 4,' starring Anthony Mackie.

 

makes sense especially given how this ended.

 

42 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

So does Val work for the government? She was suiting up US Agent in that same room he got reprimanded in.

In the comics she does. From what I understand we were supposed to first meet the character in the Black Widow movie but since that got pushed, things are out of order now. If they did indeed combine the two characters I think they did into one, Valerie Cooper and The Contessa Valentina Alegra DeFontaine, then she's basically Marvel's Amanda Waller.

[skillzdadirecta]

29 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

This is definitely more of what I was expecting with these series. In the grand scheme of things, everyone is back to where you'd assume they are after End Game. The only difference is Sharon, but she was already assumed dead. You could skip this series and go to the next movie without missing a beat.

 

I'm not sure the same is true for Wandavision. That series has far longer lasting implications for future movies than Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

 

You may have spoken too soon  see my above post.... These series definitely seem to have direct connections to future films.

[Reputator]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

She's not even close to irredeemable. She's not killing anyone for funsies. Why would she see the Sam going to bat for her as redemption? She had nothing to redeem. She did what she thought was right and was hung out to dry by the government she was dedicated her life trying to defend. Why would she need redemption? These are world governments that are now labeling previously legal residents as refugees and rounding them up at gun point to toss in camps away from the home they've built over the last few years. The only reason they didn't go ahead with the vote is because new Captain America embarrassed them all on international TV immediately after capturing the terrorists they failed to capture.

 

You misunderstood. I meant she could have seen Sam as redemption for the people of America that she felt betrayed her, not for her.

[NeoJoe]

The little nod at the end with the title being Captain America and the Winter Soldier was nice. However, it seems they keep forgetting how much Bucky is trying to not be the Winter Soldier anymore. I hope we can now put that title behind us. Embrace the White Wolf!

[skillzdadirecta]

6 minutes ago, NeoJoe said:

The little nod at the end with the title being Captain America and the Winter Soldier was nice. However, it seems they keep forgetting how much Bucky is trying to not be the Winter Soldier anymore. I hope we can now put that title behind us. Embrace the White Wolf!

MARVEL PRESENTS THE ADVENTURES OF BLACK FALCON AND WHITE WOLF!

[Ghost_MH]

57 minutes ago, Reputator said:

You misunderstood. I meant she could have seen Sam as redemption for the people of America that she felt betrayed her, not for her.

 

Sam has yet to show that the US government has been redeemed. Sharon has no problem with the American people and has yet to show she does. Problems with the US government? Yes, and deservedly so from where she's standing. What did the government do in regards to Sam that showed it had been redeemed? Even Isaiah's plaque passes the blame of his mistreatment to "some people".

 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

Sharon's problem is clearly with the government not the people. After finding out Shield had been infiltrated in Winter Soldier then going on the run to help Cap and Falcon in Civil War and THEN not getting pardoned, it's understandable that she would be all about doing things HER way and making some money while she does it. Makes perfect sense especially since the character didn't actually hide her bitterness when we first saw her in this series.

[TwinIon]

In the end I didn’t end up thinking much of this. It was all made up to Marvel standards, but the themes and character arcs were all under baked, and the implications to the MCU feel minor at best.

 

Also, the suit is just bad, especially the headgear.

[johnny]

i think this was overall good. i liked wandavision more. 

 

what worked for me: falcon, Isaiah bradley, fake cap (mostly), zemo 

 

what didn’t work for me: flagsmashers, winter soldier (every time he did something without falcon i found it hard to get into) 

[Jason]

9 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Spoiler

What's up with Isaiah's grandson? I was hoping we'd get a sense that he inherited some of his grand dad's strength.

 

 

Spoiler

Has there ever been any indication that the super soldier attributes are passed along reproductively?

 

[Jason]

5 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

She's not even close to irredeemable. She's not killing anyone for funsies. Why would she see the Sam going to bat for her as redemption? She had nothing to redeem. She did what she thought was right and was hung out to dry by the government she was dedicated her life trying to defend. Why would she need redemption? These are world governments that are now labeling previously legal residents as refugees and rounding them up at gun point to toss in camps away from the home they've built over the last few years. The only reason they didn't go ahead with the vote is because new Captain America embarrassed them all on international TV immediately after capturing the terrorists they failed to capture.

 

Anyhow as I think you were saying, this is exactly the kind of thing the MCU needs. Sharon and Zemo (and I guess Val and US Agent) who aren't really villains but who also aren't really necessarily antagonists either, just grey with their own motives.

 

40 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Also, the suit is just bad, especially the headgear.

 

Yes, the top of his head being exposed is just silly. I hope they iterate on this suit for Captain America 4 because this one is kind of weird looking.

[Jason]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

MARVEL PRESENTS THE ADVENTURES OF BLACK FALCON AND WHITE WOLF!

 

[johnny]

yeah the head thing can go. just keep the suit and then his glasses

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Has there ever been any indication that the super soldier attributes are passed along reproductively?

 

Yes in several alternate future stories.

 

2 hours ago, Jason said:

 

That was fast!

[Jason]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

That was fast!

 

It was so fast it's from over a year ago.

 

The Witcher Season 2 Begins Filming Soon; The Falcon & the Winter Soldier Halts Production

GEEKCULTURE.CO

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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier have ceased production due to the Puerto Rico earthquakes, while The Witcher Season 2 is in pre-production.

 

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Also, the suit is just bad, especially the headgear.

2 hours ago, Jason said:

 

Yes, the top of his head being exposed is just silly. I hope they iterate on this suit for Captain America 4 because this one is kind of weird looking

 

 

Interesting... one because I actually like it and two because it's pretty damn close to what it is in the comics. Is this another example of something working in the comics that doesn't work on screen for most people? It worked for me but I get it. I thought Sam flying around without more head protection was always kinda goofy but hey... it's a comic movie!

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Interesting... one because I actually like it and two because it's pretty damn close to what it is in the comics. Is this another example of something working in the comics that doesn't work on screen for most people? It worked for me but I get it. I thought Sam flying around without more head protection was always kinda goofy but hey... it's a comic movie!

 

I'm not familiar with the comics but what was goofy was having just the top of his head exposed. Either go all the way with a full cowl, or just have nothing but the goggles like with the Falcon get-up, it's the middle-ground in the new Captain suit's headgear that's weird.