Television The Falcon and the Winter Soldier OT - It's the Same but Black!

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

I'm not familiar with the comics but what was goofy was having just the top of his head exposed. Either go all the way with a full cowl, or just have nothing but the goggles like with the Falcon get-up, it's the middle-ground in the new Captain suit's headgear that's weird.

 

That's a common comic design trope to be honest. This is the first time I think I;ve seen it in live action though.

 

How Sam’s Captain America Suit Compares To The Comics

SCREENRANT.COM

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A delightfully comic-book-accurate design.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Sharon's character has been consistent throughout the MCU, except for one change.  She's stolen weapons and given them to other people, but she realized she can get paid for it now:  From Simp Broker to Power Broker.

 

 

5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

MARVEL PRESENTS THE ADVENTURES OF BLACK FALCON AND WHITE WOLF!

 

He isn't the Winter Soldier anymore, but he's still white.

[silentbob]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

I'm not familiar with the comics but what was goofy was having just the top of his head exposed. Either go all the way with a full cowl, or just have nothing but the goggles like with the Falcon get-up, it's the middle-ground in the new Captain suit's headgear that's weird.

I think then you have pretty much White Washed your black captain that way. I love the white suit minus the headgear like everyone else said. I know it’s the look like the comic book version of him but sometimes it doesn’t always translate to the big screen the same way. At least they didn’t x-men the costume and can’t wait to see the real things when they join the MCU. . . . although they did get them right, right at the end of Apocalypse 

[Reputator]

4 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

Sam has yet to show that the US government has been redeemed. Sharon has no problem with the American people and has yet to show she does. Problems with the US government? Yes, and deservedly so from where she's standing. What did the government do in regards to Sam that showed it had been redeemed? Even Isaiah's plaque passes the blame of his mistreatment to "some people".

 

Fair points. And probably the more we see of her story in future shows and films, the more understanding we'll get of the complex underpinnings of her life and current mindset.

[Jason]

20 minutes ago, silentbob said:

I think then you have pretty much White Washed your black captain that way.

 

wut

 

I said I'd be fine with no cowl and just goggles and I think this weird dome-exposed cowl would have looked goofy on Chris Evans too.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

wut

 

I said I'd be fine with no cowl and just goggles and I think this weird dome-exposed cowl would have looked goofy on Chris Evans too.

I think what he's saying is covering his whole head with a white cowl would have the effect of covering a black man's face in white. At least this way you get the color contrast of the white against his black skin without fully covering his head. Plus Sam's Falcon get up rarely covered his whole head... except for his unfortunate "Bird-man" phase. Also like I said, the whole "top of the head exposed cowl" is really common in comics. 

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

I think what he's saying is covering his whole head with a white cowl would have the effect of covering a black man's face in white. At least this way you get the color contrast of the white against his black skin without fully covering his head. Plus Sam's Falcon get up rarely covered his whole head... except for his unfortunate "Bird-man" phase. Also like I said, the whole "top of the head exposed cowl" is really common in comics. 

 

 

 

It's very comic accurate, but I don't think it really works all that well. It looks too awkward. I think @Jason is right. Ditch the cowl and just give him goggles. Either that or go more Steve Captain America and just give him a helmet with goggles with his face face and neck fully exposed. The comic suit looks designed as though to protect his neck from whiplash while flying around like crazy, but nobody really cares or thinks that hard about it. Otherwise we'd be talking about how Sam should TOTALLY have been crushed by the force of the truck being pulled down by gravity while his jets pushed up against that force with him as the should be emulsified Captain in the middle.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, Ghost_MH said:

 

It's very comic accurate, but I don't think it really works all that well. It looks too awkward. I think @Jason is right. Ditch the cowl and just give him goggles. Either that or go more Steve Captain America and just give him a helmet with goggles with his face face and neck fully exposed. The comic suit looks designed as though to protect his neck from whiplash while flying around like crazy, but nobody really cares or thinks that hard about it. Otherwise we'd be talking about how Sam should TOTALLY have been crushed by the force of the truck being pulled down by gravity while his jets pushed up against that force with him as the should be emulsified Captain in the middle.

 

The only thing I think that kept him from getting crushed is that his whole suit is reinforced with Vibranium. That's the only thing that makes sense. It was the Wakandans that originally gave him his wings in the comics too btw. Before that he was just an acrobatic fighter like Cap and Dardevil.

[NeoJoe]

I like the comic accurate costume but personally don't like all the white on the top. I was hoping for something like this render:

 

[Kal-El814]

I have some mixed feelings about how they tried to stick the landing, and what they ended up trying to say.

 

The MCU has always had an obvious (or maybe less so, depending on your POV) issue with the projection of predominantly American military power. It's not problematic for Cap to fight Hydra in WWII, they're literal Nazis and they're at literal war. Aside from that, they kinda tried to address this issue with the Sokovia Accords in Civil War, which spilled into Falcon and the Winter Soldier. But that's always been a hard sell for movie watchers; we know these people are always going to do the "right thing" regardless of what side they land on. Hell, Tony is recruiting a teenage boy to fight in Germany, which is surely violating the accords he's fighting his friends to support. 

 

So in this show we have the Flag Smashers trying to resist the relocation of the blip diaspora. They drum up support for their cause using social media. They decide to fight back by disrupting a vote. This is all very contemporaneous and potentially interesting.

 

But I dunno man. I get that Sam sympathizes with Karli given his background established in Cap 2 and the early parts of this show. But her group is killing people indiscriminately. They're kidnapping elected officials. And his take is, "imagine how the people you relocate are feeling." Yeah, sure, I get it, but you just had to rescue all of these people from abduction and death, insisting that they not be called terrorists is wild. Especially because for most of the show, he and Bucky have no problem being American military agents abroad, they prioritize the mission SO MUCH that they free Zemo which for Bucky is a huge betrayal of the people that helped him heal.

 

It's weird. I think the vision the show has for a black Captain America and what that means for Sam / other people is very clear. How it wants us to understand Bucky is very clear. Everything else... American power, terrorism, refugees, global politics... this show is a fucking mess. I get that the MCU is like that writ large, but it's rarely been on display to the extent that it is in the last 20 minutes of the finale. Based on the teases we've seen in some of the movies, I think it's safe to say that the next Avengers movie will be Avengers... in... Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace, so some of this will be less relevant.

 

But this show really wants to have its cake and eat it, too, when it comes to how superheroes and America use power.

[silentbob]

[Jason]

14 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I think what he's saying is covering his whole head with a white cowl would have the effect of covering a black man's face in white. At least this way you get the color contrast of the white against his black skin without fully covering his head. Plus Sam's Falcon get up rarely covered his whole head... except for his unfortunate "Bird-man" phase. Also like I said, the whole "top of the head exposed cowl" is really common in comics.

 

But I wasn't saying completely hide that he's black? Your typical superhero cowl would still clearly show that he's black.

 

[skillzdadirecta]

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

But I wasn't saying completely hide that he's black? Your typical superhero cowl would still clearly show that he's black.

 

 

He wasn't saying you were saying that. He was saying that this was probably the thinking that went into the cowl design and I would agree. I can totally see this being a point of discussion when designing the suit. And yes you would still be able to see he's black... but his whole head would be covered in white. Seeing as how his character would be somwhat symbolic as a black man trying to maintain his blackness AND represent at country that doesn't always do justice by people like him, the subliminal implications of that would be something some people would notice.

 

Again, he wasn't saying YOU were saying that. He was making a point about subliminal symbolism...

 

Also Falcon has had a fully covered head cowl in the comics. It didn't work and made him look like Harvey Birdman. Scroll down this article and you'll see that suit. It kinda sucked.

'

https://www.writeups.org/falcon-marvel-comics-captain-america-wilson/

 

Anywho I hope the Avengers game survives long enough that we get him as DLC 

[Jason]

25 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

He wasn't saying you were saying that. He was saying that this was probably the thinking that went into the cowl design and I would agree. I can totally see this being a point of discussion when designing the suit. And yes you would still be able to see he's black... but his whole head would be covered in white. Seeing as how his character would be somwhat symbolic as a black man trying to maintain his blackness AND represent at country that doesn't always do justice by people like him, the subliminal implications of that would be something some people would notice.

 

Again, he wasn't saying YOU were saying that. He was making a point about subliminal symbolism...

 

Also Falcon has had a fully covered head cowl in the comics. It didn't work and made him look like Harvey Birdman. Scroll down this article and you'll see that suit. It kinda sucked.

'

https://www.writeups.org/falcon-marvel-comics-captain-america-wilson/

 

Anywho I hope the Avengers game survives long enough that we get him as DLC 

 

I see the Harvey Birdman thing but like we've been saying maybe what works in comics doesn't 100% work in live action. I still think if a fully covered head cowl was ruled out, whatever the reason was, just sticking with goggles+no cowl at all makes a lot more sense since Sam's cowl doesn't seem to be armored or anything.

 

Also I looked up Wally West from the Arrowverse looking for example of superhero cowls and had forgotten he has the top of his head exposed too. I'm not sure why that didn't look goofy to me before, it does a tiny bit now though.

 

 

I think 50% because Arroweverse headgears tends to be mostly about just hiding your identity--hence all the outfits where the only headgear is cabaret masks--which isn't an issue for Sam since his identity is public, and 50% because I think it's the addition of the goggles that winds up making it have this combo of simultaneously looking a little overdone and like they forgot to finish the costume, whereas Wally's outfit has no goggles so I think that's why it looks better. With a side of you'd think they could afford better-looking costumes in the MCU than on a CW show, it's easier to ignore goofy costuming decisions on the CW given their budgets.

[skillzdadirecta]

Wally West's costume is comic accurate too funny enough. Comic suits just look goof in general. I don't like The Flash's current suit for example. But I think audiences just accept how goofy these suits look in real life. I'm still waiting to see how ridiculous Wolverine's costume will look when they finally put that on the big screen.

[silentbob]

I guess I should chime in since I brought it up. As @skillzdadirectasaid I wasn’t going at @Jason, but making the comment that Falcon/Captain America almost looses his black identity by covering a black man in all white. I will admit though that the cowl for Kid Flash comes off looking better on screen then the cowl Falcon had on.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, silentbob said:

I guess I should chime in since I brought it up. As @skillzdadirectasaid I wasn’t going at @Jason, but making the comment that Falcon/Captain America almost looses his black identity by covering a black man in all white. I will admit though that the cowl for Kid Flash comes off looking better on screen then the cowl Falcon had on.

I remember a character in the comics calling Falcon out for wearing a white mask in one of his solo stories. He was always looked at as being a "safe black man" in the Marvel U due to his partnership with Cap. 

[CitizenVectron]

I think the suit looks pretty good. Sure, there are a couple of improvements that can be made...but does anyone think it's worse than Avengers 1 Cap suit?

 

 

I'm sure they will improve on it, just like they improved massively from Avengers 1 to CA: Winter Soldier (still the best Cap suit, imo).

[skillzdadirecta]

5 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

I think the suit looks pretty good. Sure, there are a couple of improvements that can be made...but does anyone think it's worse than Avengers 1 Cap suit?

 

 

I'm sure they will improve on it, just like they improved massively from Avengers 1 to CA: Winter Soldier (still the best Cap suit, imo).

That suit is on par with the Flash's current suit. And NO...Cap Falcon's current suit is nowhere near as lame as this Cap suit. Not even close.

[CitizenVectron]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

That suit is on par with the Flash's current suit. And NO...Cap Falcon's current suit is nowhere near as lame as this Cap suit. Not even close.

 

Exactly. The goggles/cowl thing is very minor, and I have no doubt that with movie money they are going to improve on it quite a bit.

[cusideabelincoln]

Falcon's suit looks fine to me.  

 

The white of the suit is only from the shoulders up; the rest is mostly navy blue.  They probably did that, and not have cover the top of his head, to highlight the contrast of his skin color.

[PaladinSolo]

This show wasn't great, and when he started doing push ups and jogging so he could throw the shield better i just started laughing, shoulda just had him take the serum and got it over with.

[Iculus]

37 minutes ago, PaladinSolo said:

when he started doing push ups and jogging so he could throw the shield better

I don't know that one was supposed to affect the other. It was a standard, throw-away, training montage. Rocky flipping tires in Russia doesn't make him a better boxer.

[TwinIon]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:49 PM, skillzdadirecta said:

Interesting... one because I actually like it and two because it's pretty damn close to what it is in the comics. Is this another example of something working in the comics that doesn't work on screen for most people? It worked for me but I get it. I thought Sam flying around without more head protection was always kinda goofy but hey... it's a comic movie!

Personally, it's the ascetics that don't work for me. Hard to criticize the reality of the MCU at this point.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[NeoJoe]

"Is it Mephisto?" 

[EternallDarkness]

2 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

 

I love these, sure they are tongue and cheek but they are also dead on accurate 

[Jason]

Apparently there's a good reason the Flag Smasher plot feels so weirdly underdone:

 

Quote

The entire Flag smasher plot had to be changed because of Covid the original idea was that the Flag smashers were going to release a man made plague to wipe out half of the population but that got changed for obvious reasons (plus it being made in south east Asia yeah).

You see leftovers of this plot like the truck heist with all the medical supplies, Veronica Falcón being cast as Donya Madani then having all her lines cut and Sam's speech at the end were he compares Karli to Thanos as some one who has the power to kill half the world.

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/04/review-the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-aims-high-but-falls-a-bit-short/?comments=1&post=39856733#comment-39856733

[Kal-El814]

Superficially related, but AMG just announced this mini for Marvel Crisis Protocol, which I will obviously be buying.

 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Apparently there's a good reason the Flag Smasher plot feels so weirdly underdone:

 

 

Review: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier aims high but falls a bit short

ARSTECHNICA.COM

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It tries to do too many things at once, and thus doesn't do them as well as it could.

 

That is an uncofirmed rumor that's been floating around for weeks among some of the more... conspiratorial viewers in the audience (I.E. conservative, Qanon types...) A very conservative friend of mine has been trying to sell me on this idea for WEEKS. There's youtube vids about it and everything. NONE of this confirmed anywhere but it feeds into the whole "Marvel/Disney isbeing woke thing" that a lot of these guys subscribe to.

 

 

Here is the video he sent me that breaks the mystery.

[Kal-El814]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

NONE of this confirmed anywhere but it feeds into the whole "Marvel/Disney isbeing woke thing" that a lot of these guys subscribe to.

 

As a white person it drives me bananas that “woke” being used as a pejorative has come to mean, “there are black people present.”

 

That said it is a convenient way to easily identify people to ignore, so, silver lining I guess.

[skillzdadirecta]

5 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

As a white person it drives me bananas that “woke” being used as a pejorative has come to mean, “there are black people present.”

 

That said it is a convenient way to easily identify people to ignore, so, silver lining I guess.

Pretty much.

[Guest]

There is literally nothing Black people have brought to the culture that white folks don’t immediately swoop in and make worse, if not outright ruin

[Jason]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

That is an uncofirmed rumor that's been floating around for weeks among some of the more... conspiratorial viewers in the audience (I.E. conservative, Qanon types...) A very conservative friend of mine has been trying to sell me on this idea for WEEKS. There's youtube vids about it and everything. NONE of this confirmed anywhere but it feeds into the whole "Marvel/Disney isbeing woke thing" that a lot of these guys subscribe to.

 

I haven't watched that video yet but I don't see how what I posted is whining about Disney or the show being woke, I just took it as not wanting to do a pandemic story in the middle of a global pandemic, and it lines up with the pieces we have about the Flag Smashers story and the ways in which it feels disjointed and underwhelming.

[Kal-El814]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

There is literally nothing Black people have brought to the culture that white folks don’t immediately swoop in and make worse, if not outright ruin

 

Beatles fans just felt a disturbance in the Force...