Microsoft Rumor: 4TF Lockhart to 'effectively replace' One X, possible May event, revised headset

[crispy4000]

"As per some of our earlier information on Xbox "Lockhart" and the Xbox Series X, we're expecting Lockhart to be a 4TF "entry-point" to next-gen gaming, and it should effectively replace the Xbox One X. This system is designed to be affordable but will offer aspects of a next-gen experience currently unavailable to past-gen consoles, presumably in the form of NVME loading speeds and perhaps some limited ray-tracing. We have no idea about the capabilities of Lockhart outside that magical "4TF" GPU number, which came alongside more of our detailed Xbox Series X info that turned out to be accurate."

"In addition to Lockhart potentially moving out of the lab into the homes of internal Microsoft testers, we've heard Team Xbox is building a replacement for its 2014 Xbox Stereo Headset. If our sourcing on this is accurate, the new headset will be fully wireless, compatible with Xbox, PC, and mobile devices, presumably via separate Bluetooth and Xbox Wireless signals"

More details here, reiterating prior Fable rumors as well:

 

https://www.windowscentral.com/okay-lets-talk-about-current-xbox-rumors-may-and-june-events-lockhart-revealed-and-more

 

[Remarkableriots]

This sounds like a horrible idea.

[crispy4000]

Microsoft would be supporting 4 SKUs for the first two years of next gen.  (Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Lockhart, Series X)  But I could see them quickly curtailing production and shelf-space of the current gen consoles with Lockhart's release.  With the COVID situation, a cheap SKU is looking like a smarter and smarter move buisness-wise.

If significant HDD (/and CPU) upgrades over the One X materialize in Lockhart, there would still be a clear line between generations.  I don't think we shouldn't expect the One X, or likewise, the PS4 Pro, to be able to hang for longer than a typical generation transition.  They were too GPU focused to position themselves as cross-generational machines.  A 4TF RDNA2 Lockhart won't retroactively change that.

But it does mean that PC gamers might have a bit more flexibility with older cards.  If Lockhart catches on, PC minimum specs might stay lower than a typical for console generation transition, with the exception of a modern SSD perhaps.  I don't expect Lockhart to be able to do much with RT at all, so traditional rasterization could stick around for a good while as a baseline.

[Mr.Vic20]

I just can’t believe a 4TF spec unless this will be a streaming box. X One X is a 6TF. To be clear, I could see them doing this, but I see it as an awful purchase.

[crispy4000]

30 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

I just can’t believe a 4TF spec unless this will be a streaming box. X One X is a 6TF. To be clear, I could see them doing this, but I see it as an awful purchase.

 

TF number is likely misleading due to RDNA2.  

I don't expect it to be weaker than One X in practice.  Though I doubt it’ll get as close to 4K next gen as X did this gen.

[Dre801]

TF doesn't tell the whole story.  They aren't replacing the X with something weaker and as someone said,  RDNA2 makes going off just that number an even worse idea.

[Mr.Vic20]

While its true that generations to generations aren't apples to apples, the delta won't be that great either. That said, your point is taken that it will likely roughly rival the XBX in relative performance, still disappointing, if true. 

[number305]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

While its true that generations to generations aren't apples to apples, the delta won't be that great either. That said, your point is taken that it will likely roughly rival the XBX in relative performance, still disappointing, if true. 

Disappointing how?  It is an inexpensive box for people that can't afford the expensive one.  If you have the means then get the badass sex box.  

 

I don't buy the 'it's going to hold back games' argument anymore.  PC's have supported wildly different specs for their entire existence and it is still generally accepted that you can play the best versions of games on PC.  To be honest if you want the absolute best - go spend $2000 on a pc and play Halo Infinite on that this fall.  The Lockhart won't be holding that back.

[Mr.Vic20]

1 minute ago, number305 said:

Disappointing how?  It is an inexpensive box for people that can't afford the expensive one.  If you have the means then get the badass sex box.  

 

I don't buy the 'it's going to hold back games' argument anymore.  PC's have supported wildly different specs for their entire existence and it is still generally accepted that you can play the best versions of games on PC.  To be honest if you want the absolute best - go spend $2000 on a pc and play Halo Infinite on that this fall.  The Lockhart won't be holding that back.

If it has the same exact amount of RAM and a similar speed SSD to the high end model then I wouldn't care, but I'm guessing those components would be effected as well. I do have the means and that's why I have a high end PC, but I know that developers tend to follow the "we walk as slow as the slowest scout" approach so I'm critical of any minimal hardware bottleneck and I suspect this unit will provide just that *IF* these rumors are true. 

[number305]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

If it has the same exact amount of RAM and a similar speed SSD to the high end model then I wouldn't care, but I'm guessing those components would be effected as well. I do have the means and that's why I have a high end PC, but I know that developers tend to follow the "we walk as slow as the slowest scout" approach so I'm critical of any minimal hardware bottleneck and I suspect this unit will provide just that *IF* these rumors are true. 

I think there have been enough rumors at this point that there is probably some truth to them.  I just don't really believe that having a low cost option is going to effect games that much into the future.  I think they will run at lower resolutions and probably have longer load times on that box - but I don't think they will be holding back development from pushing the envelope.  I think the only way that happens is if the lower cost box ends up being the primary seller.  

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

While its true that generations to generations aren't apples to apples, the delta won't be that great either. That said, your point is taken that it will likely roughly rival the XBX in relative performance, still disappointing, if true. 

 

I'm thinking a delta like between Wii U and Switch in GPU capability.  But likely a far greater one with the CPU/SSD.

 

2 hours ago, number305 said:

Disappointing how?  It is an inexpensive box for people that can't afford the expensive one.  If you have the means then get the badass sex box.  

 

I don't buy the 'it's going to hold back games' argument anymore.  PC's have supported wildly different specs for their entire existence and it is still generally accepted that you can play the best versions of games on PC.  To be honest if you want the absolute best - go spend $2000 on a pc and play Halo Infinite on that this fall.  The Lockhart won't be holding that back.

At some point the current gen consoles will be dropped.  Even by Microsoft 1st party. So it becomes a question of what the minimum spec threshold at that point becomes.

 

Devs will need to build games that support that minimum.  If that means they can't take a certain amount of RT capability or RAM for granted, it might complicate development down the road.  Especially if those could be considered subpar.
 

1 hour ago, number305 said:

I think they will run at lower resolutions and probably have longer load times on that box - but I don't think they will be holding back development from pushing the envelope.  I think the only way that happens is if the lower cost box ends up being the primary seller.  

 

It may not hold back the upper end so much as add development time and cost.  It could feel more like a port job depending on how far the upper end is pushed and prioritized.

[Dodger]

This either needs to come in at $199 or the PS5 has to launch at $499 for this to make any sense. Because if the PS5 comes in at $399 and this comes in at $299 it literally makes no sense to save a $100 to get a console less than half as powerful as the PS5, and the PS5 is going to have the lineup of games, at least at first that people want. A $399 PS5 with HZD2 and Spiderman 2 in the first year and this thing is DOA. But if it's like $249 while the PS5 and XSX are $499 then it starts to make sense. I always thought MS was waiting for Sony to reveal price of the PS5 before revealing the Lockhart, because a $399 PS5 really knee caps this. 

[Mr.Vic20]

16 minutes ago, number305 said:

I think there have been enough rumors at this point that there is probably some truth to them.  I just don't really believe that having a low cost option is going to effect games that much into the future.  I think they will run at lower resolutions and probably have longer load times on that box - but I don't think they will be holding back development from pushing the envelope.  I think the only way that happens is if the lower cost box ends up being the primary seller.  

I'll say this much, I hope you are right and I am wrong! 

[Duderino]

The existence of Lockhart would mean developers will need to consider Lockart's GPU throughput as the baseline for tasks that utilize parallelized compute jobs on the GPU.  Think GPU accelerated physics, deformation, raycasting, etc. 

 

How much of a limiting factor that could be depends on what the ambitions for next gen games are beyond the GPU's primary rendering responsibilities.

[Brian]

The X struggles with current games. I’m sure this will be fine. 
 

 

[XxEvil AshxX]

Why would the Lockhart replace the One X and not the One S? It's the S that needs to be phased out.

[crispy4000]

37 minutes ago, XxEvil AshxX said:

Why would the Lockhart replace the One X and not the One S? It's the S that needs to be phased out.

Answer: They’ll both be phased out at the same time, as prior gen consoles.

[JPDunks4]

2 hours ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

If it has the same exact amount of RAM and a similar speed SSD to the high end model then I wouldn't care, but I'm guessing those components would be effected as well. I do have the means and that's why I have a high end PC, but I know that developers tend to follow the "we walk as slow as the slowest scout" approach so I'm critical of any minimal hardware bottleneck and I suspect this unit will provide just that *IF* these rumors are true. 

 

The rumors at this point is its going to essentially be identical in all aspects but GPU, and basically just shoot to hit 1080p/1440p resolutions while being able to deliver the faster load times and better frame rates that the next gen should delivery.  It's not going to attempt to go for 4k or higher end Resolutions.

 

It's something I've seen for awhile now since investing heavily into PC gaming as well.  A lot of people I know running high end PC's, almost none of them run 4k, or 1440p.  So many of them just run 1080p monitors at max frame rates.  I think resolutions in general are so overblown by the fanboys as some metric to win their Console Wars.

 

If Xbox can deliver a solid 1080p 60-120fps machine at $300, while delivering the NVME load times, I don't see how that is a mistake at all.  I think its one of those things that once people see or experience the reduced load times from the next gen machines, going back to playing on old hardware is going to be very very difficult to do.  Having a cheaper box available for those looking to just take advantage of that and don't care about 4k I think is a very smart option.

 

Xbox One X production is supposedly already shutting down as well.  They dropped price to $300 on Xbox One X to start trying to clear inventory, and Cyberpunk's Limited Console, which had to be delayed due to the game being delayed, is the last Special Edition Console.  

 

I'd expect later this year and going into next year, Xbox One X and Xbox One S will largely be hard to find and phased out pretty quickly.
 

[JPDunks4]

That being said, if the lower TF machine can hinder how far the envelope can be pushed for future games later in the generation, and not just affect resolution, then I dislike the idea as well.  I just think there are a lot of gamers that are perfectly fine with 1080p performance, and are fine saving the $ if they get the next gen experience without the resolution boost.

 

Edit - The event is supposedly the first week of May, so not too much longer to see some stuff hopefully.

[Mr.Vic20]

 I understand that the GPU workload can be effectively scaled via most modern engines, the visual impact lessened through techniques like checkerboarding. Do I love 4TF, nope, but then again I suppose its not for me, but my real fear is that IF the GPU spec is that light, might the total system RAM and SSD's  quality be impacted as well?   *IF* so, that will effect high end development targets. Its not just about load times either, it can effect the approach they take on total throughput of the system, potentially resulting in less than ideal texture streaming. It benefits the industry when next gen hardware strives to push the hardware to its economically viable limits. 

[TwinIon]

Setting aside the TF spec, it does make sense to me to get rid of the One X and replace it with another entry level "next gen" console. I assume the Series X will be expensive, and they'd probably rather people with ~$350 to spend buy one of these rather than anything in the old lineup.

 

I think the whole idea of "the lower spec will hold back high end games" ship has sailed. Especially seeing as so many of these games will be on the PC as well, where you'll already be supporting spinning discs and what not.

[crispy4000]

33 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

I think the whole idea of "the lower spec will hold back high end games" ship has sailed. Especially seeing as so many of these games will be on the PC as well, where you'll already be supporting spinning discs and what not.

Yeah, it would be wild if the PC was actually the lowest common denominator with SSD speed and efficiency.  I don’t expect PC gamers on average to have a ssd setup better than these machines for a good while.

 

An SSD will start to become the minimum spec eventually for AAA projects.

[AbsolutSurgen]

If this machine actually exists, it could be different that what most people envisage.

It could be intended on being a streaming box, with a minimal SSD (upgradeable with one of these):

It could be intended as a 1080P machine (4TF sounds pretty close to a machine that could do at 1080p, what Series X can do at 4k).

This may even be a machine that isn't intended for retail.  MS could offer a $25/month plan that gives you a console, Game Pass and Xbox live -- with game streaming via X-Cloud.

Edit:  Developers don't REALLY have to support anything that they don't want to.  They could easily target higher performance consoles, and have a version that runs like @$$ on Lockhart.

17 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Yeah, it would be wild if the PC was actually the lowest common denominator with SSD speed and efficiency.  I don’t expect PC gamers on average to have a ssd setup better than these machines for a good while.

 

An SSD will start to become the minimum spec eventually for AAA projects.

Sooner, rather than later.

[number305]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

Edit:  Developers don't REALLY have to support anything that they don't want to.  They could easily target higher performance consoles, and have a version that runs like @$$ on Lockhart.

 

I think this is all going to depend on sales.  If there is a large percentage of sales of Lockhart systems no one will ignore it.  But honestly until we have some sort of an idea of specs most of our discussion here is speculation.  TF does not mean a lot. 

 

I still think that MS knows enough to position these machines so that it will be pretty easy for developers to scale games to work on either, with probably just changes to resolution.

[crispy4000]

17 minutes ago, number305 said:

I still think that MS knows enough to position these machines so that it will be pretty easy for developers to scale games to work on either, with probably just changes to resolution.

For many games it will be just that simple.  For many games it likely won’t.  As @Duderino said, it depends on what the GPU is tasked with and what is being pushed. 
 

Also what an acceptable Lockhart game resolution is.

[Xbob42]

3 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Setting aside the TF spec, it does make sense to me to get rid of the One X and replace it with another entry level "next gen" console. I assume the Series X will be expensive, and they'd probably rather people with ~$350 to spend buy one of these rather than anything in the old lineup.

 

I think the whole idea of "the lower spec will hold back high end games" ship has sailed. Especially seeing as so many of these games will be on the PC as well, where you'll already be supporting spinning discs and what not.

PC has minimum specs, though. If your game requires something like a fast SSD, that... just goes into the minimum specs. Games on PC don't support every piece of hardware that has ever existed.

 

Someone having a PC that's only good for running Peggle also doesn't count as the baseline minimum for console game development.

[Duderino]

4 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

PC has minimum specs, though. If your game requires something like a fast SSD, that... just goes into the minimum specs. Games on PC don't support every piece of hardware that has ever existed.

 

Which speaks to the difference between Lockhart and lower spec PCs.  Lockhart, as part of the Series X line, will not be an optional target for developers as the generation progresses.  

 

That means, for the next 6+ years, devs will need to ask themselves "can the tech we're developing and/or utilizing scale down to Lockhart in an acceptable state?".  In many cases the answer will be yes, but in instances where the tech can't scale that low (most obvious being raytraced lighting) Lockhart could require additional considerations, separate solutions, or in the absolute worst case, become a limiting factor.

[crispy4000]

I think they did the math that if the One S was 4x weaker GPU-wise than the X, so a 3x differential between Lockhart and Series X wouldn’t be so bad for lower res gaming.

 

Problem there could be when devs will start targeting 1440p or lower on Series X.  We know it’ll happen with ray tracing.  Or worse, when they (or Sony) release this gen’s mid-cycle SKUs.  The bar will keep getting pushed forward.

 

It’s easy to see Lockhart falling further behind in a few years than the S is to now.

[AbsolutSurgen]

18 hours ago, number305 said:

I think this is all going to depend on sales.  If there is a large percentage of sales of Lockhart systems no one will ignore it.  But honestly until we have some sort of an idea of specs most of our discussion here is speculation.  TF does not mean a lot. 

 

I still think that MS knows enough to position these machines so that it will be pretty easy for developers to scale games to work on either, with probably just changes to resolution.

They could still release a version with a poor framerate, low resolution or that is otherwise partially gimped, and offer a "better experience" via streaming.

 

17 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

For many games it will be just that simple.  For many games it likely won’t.  As @Duderino said, it depends on what the GPU is tasked with and what is being pushed. 
 

Also what an acceptable Lockhart game resolution is.

Lots of high profile Xbox One games render at 720p, and I suspect there are some with variable resolution that render even lower.  I am not sure this would be any different if Lockhart becomes a thing.

10 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

I think they did the math that if the One S was 4x weaker GPU-wise than the X, so a 3x differential between Lockhart and Series X wouldn’t be so bad for lower res gaming.

 

Problem there could be when devs will start targeting 1440p or lower on Series X.  We know it’ll happen with ray tracing.  Or worse, when they (or Sony) release this gen’s mid-cycle SKUs.  The bar will keep getting pushed forward.

 

It’s easy to see Lockhart falling further behind in a few years than the S is to now.

If SeX targets 1440p rendering resolution for a 4k output, Lockhart could target 720p for a 1080p output.  Both represent ~44% of the rendered pixels vs output pixels.

 

I suspect that 3-years from now, MS believes that streaming will be a viable option for these owners.

[crispy4000]

4 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

They could still release a version with a poor framerate, low resolution or that is otherwise partially gimped, and offer a "better experience" via streaming.

If framerate and resolution is so poor that streaming would offer a better experience, they should just be building a streaming box.  They don't need even need 4TF for that.  Let alone a SSD.

 

4 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Lots of high profile Xbox One games render at 720p, and I suspect there are some with variable resolution that render even lower.  I am not sure this would be any different if Lockhart becomes a thing.

None of which is a good thing.  Microsoft cut too many corners at the start of this gen.  Maybe even because of Kinect 2.0.
 

Next gen, 720p will seem positively archaic considering 4k TVs will be in most households.  I don't think it's a reasonable target for any next gen console considering.  Even Nintendo.

 

4 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

If SeX targets 1440p rendering resolution for a 4k output, Lockhart could target 720p for a 1080p output.  Both represent ~44% of the rendered pixels vs output pixels.

 

It's not that simple.  Generally speaking there's more tricks developers can pull with a higher resolution base (like 1440p).  Dynamic resolution drops are less noticeable.  Upscaling methods like checkerboarding are less noisy and do a better job at faking a higher resolution image.    AA can be less of an issue.  Etc.

 

We've recently seen some magical things with DLSS 2.0 upscaling a 540p base to a 1080p that actually looks better than native 1080p.  If Microsoft and AMD can match that with some new tech we don't know about, then sure, that would be fantastic for Lockhart.

[TwinIon]

18 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

PC has minimum specs, though. If your game requires something like a fast SSD, that... just goes into the minimum specs. Games on PC don't support every piece of hardware that has ever existed.

 

Someone having a PC that's only good for running Peggle also doesn't count as the baseline minimum for console game development.

I imagine it's only a matter of time, but I'm unaware of any PC games that currently require an SSD, much less a fast one. It would be a very different paradigm to start requiring a minimum storage speed. Besides, you've also got the One X to support for a couple years at least. I'd be shocked if we see first party MS games require an SSD anytime soon.

 

Eventually, it will be the norm, but it'll still be a while.

[Dodger]

I look at it this way, look at the all the games companies are getting on the Switch. Sure the look like ass, but because the Switch and the games sell, companies do it. If the Lockhart is a success, companies will find a way to make it work. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

If framerate and resolution is so poor that streaming would offer a better experience, they should just be building a streaming box.  They don't need even need 4TF for that.  Let alone a SSD.

 

It can play backward compatible games too.

 

4 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

None of which is a good thing.  Microsoft cut too many corners at the start of this gen.  Maybe even because of Kinect 2.0.

 

Next gen, 720p will seem positively archaic considering 4k TVs will be in most households.  I don't think it's a reasonable target for any next gen console considering.  Even Nintendo.

 

If you're buying the cheap box, you probably don't care that much about resolution.  

4 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

It's not that simple.  Generally speaking there's more tricks developers can pull with a higher resolution base (like 1440p).  Dynamic resolution drops are less noticeable.  Upscaling methods like checkerboarding are less noisy and do a better job at faking a higher resolution image.    AA can be less of an issue.  Etc.

 

We've recently seen some magical things with DLSS 2.0 upscaling a 540p base to a 1080p that actually looks better than native 1080p.  If Microsoft and AMD can match that with some new tech we don't know about, then sure, that would be fantastic for Lockhart.

People seem to be making due with Switch graphics ATM, which look archaic to me.  The rumoured Lockhart would be a huge step above Switch.

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

People seem to be making due with Switch graphics ATM, which look archaic to me.  The rumoured Lockhart would be a huge step above Switch.

If we’re talking a 720p norm, then no, that’s not better than Switch on the TV typically. Most it’s games still target 1080p there.  Even Breath of the Wild is at 900p.  720p was the resolution of the Wii U version. 

 

Who knows just how good or bad Lockhart could have it yet.  But I don’t think next gen graphics at 720p will impress much of anyone on a TV set in 2020.

[AbsolutSurgen]

12 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

If we’re talking a 720p norm, then no, that’s not better than Switch on the TV typically. Most it’s games still target 1080p there.  Even Breath of the Wild is at 900. 720p was the resolution of the Wii U version. 

 

Who knows just how good or bad Lockhart could have it yet.  But I don’t think next gen graphics at 720p will impress anyone on a TV set in 2020.

 

 

Doom was 1024x576 on Switch, and people raved about how it was a technical marvel.  I would have to double check, but I thought the Switch handheld screen was only capable of 720p?

 

If you are looking for a next gen technical marvel, you're not buying the 4 TF Lockhart.  If the 4TF Lockhart exists, you are buying it because of the $$$, and the fact that you don't care too much about the graphics.

 

Edit:  Have you seen the graphics on Animal Crossing?