Microsoft Rumor: 4TF Lockhart to 'effectively replace' One X, possible May event, revised headset

[crispy4000]

38 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Doom was 1024x576 on Switch, and people raved about how it was a technical marvel.  I would have to double check, but I thought the Switch handheld screen was only capable of 720p?

 

If you are looking for a next gen technical marvel, you're not buying the 4 TF Lockhart.  If the 4TF Lockhart exists, you are buying it because of the $$$, and the fact that you don't care too much about the graphics.

 

Edit:  Have you seen the graphics on Animal Crossing?

People raved about Doom at 576p on a portable.  There’s your reason.  It is a 720p screen by the way.  Still a much smaller screen in size than a tv. 

 

I have Animal Crossing, it looks clean to me.  Nothing super regressive about it other than what could be chalked up as stylized.  (Have you seen Goose Game?)

 

Lockhart won’t be about getting the best graphics.  Neither was the Wii.  Difference is that 720p would feel two generations behind.  I’d hope for 1080p, with the caveat that there will still be optimization troubles.

[AbsolutSurgen]

20 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

People raved about Doom at 576p on a portable screen.  There’s your reason.  It is a 720p screen by the way.  Still a much smaller screen in size than a tv. 

 

I have Animal Crossing, it looks clean to me.  Nothing super regressive about it other than what could be chalked up as stylized.  (Have you seen Goose Game?)

 

Lockhart won’t be about getting the best graphics.  Neither was the Wii.  Difference is that 720p would feel two generations behind.  I’d hope for 1080p, with the caveat that there will be optimization troubles.

That's the resolution for Doom on a TV too.

Lockhart should be capable of running Animal Crossing at 4k.

 

Aren't most of the CoD games and Battlefront/Battlefield games running at 720p today on Xbox?

[crispy4000]

25 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

That's the resolution for Doom on a TV too.

Lockhart should be capable of running Animal Crossing at 4k.

 

Aren't most of the CoD games and Battlefront/Battlefield games running at 720p today on Xbox?

No one is praising Doom on Switch on the TV, because no one is playing Doom Switch on a TV.  Same goes for Witcher 3.

 

Next gen CoD at 720p on 4K TV will feel archaic for anyone conditioned to a range of 1080p to 4K content.  Which will be most everyone next gen.  

You’re correct that Animal Crossing wouldn’t be a demanding game to run at 4K on new machines.  The issue would be games perhaps too demanding to hit 1080p30 on Lockhart without major concessions.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

20 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

No one is praising Doom on Switch on the TV, because no one is playing Doom Switch on a TV.  Same goes for Witcher 3.

 

Next gen CoD at 720p on 4K TV will feel archaic for anyone conditioned to a range of 1080p to 4K content.  Which will be most everyone next gen.  

You’re correct that Animal Crossing wouldn’t be a demanding game to run at 4K on new machines.  The issue would be games perhaps too demanding to hit 1080p30 on Lockhart without major concessions.

 

Why is that an issue for a budget console, for people who don't give a shit about graphics?  People who buy this, WON'T be conditioned for 4k graphics.  They will be walking from a Xbox or Xbox S and be gobsmacked by how much better their new console looks on their 4-year old 40-inch Vizio TV.  Or they are a 10-year old who will be thrilled that their mother finally brought home a machine that they can play games on , rather than having to go to their friends house.

(On a side note:  According to Amazon Canada, their best selling TV is a 40" 1080p TV -- of their top ten best selling TVs, 4 are 4k, 4 are 1080p, and 2 are 720p.)

 

Just because it isn't for you (or me), doesn't mean there isn't a market at all for this.

[JPDunks4]

Why are you guys bringing up 720p? 

 

You think they are going to be targeting 720p on Lockhart?  It's going to be a 1080p or 1440p machine.  

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, JPDunks4 said:

Why are you guys bringing up 720p? 

 

You think they are going to be targeting 720p on Lockhart?  It's going to be a 1080p or 1440p machine.  

 

Was first brought up like this:

  

13 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Lots of high profile Xbox One games render at 720p, and I suspect there are some with variable resolution that render even lower.  I am not sure this would be any different if Lockhart becomes a thing.

... If SeX targets 1440p rendering resolution for a 4k output, Lockhart could target 720p for a 1080p output.  Both represent ~44% of the rendered pixels vs output pixels.

I personally doubt we'd see any universal resolution target for it realized.  I'd sooner guess it'd be all across the map throughout the generation as devs make different choices, and shift priorities.

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Why is that an issue for a budget console, for people who don't give a shit about graphics?  People who buy this, WON'T be conditioned for 4k graphics.  They will be walking from a Xbox or Xbox S and be gobsmacked by how much better their new console looks on their 4-year old 40-inch Vizio TV.  Or they are a 10-year old who will be thrilled that their mother finally brought home a machine that they can play games on , rather than having to go to their friends house.

(On a side note:  According to Amazon Canada, their best selling TV is a 40" 1080p TV -- of their top ten best selling TVs, 4 are 4k, 4 are 1080p, and 2 are 720p.)

 

Just because it isn't for you (or me), doesn't mean there isn't a market at all for this.

 

Almost every new TV model that hits the market these days is 4K.  Most 1080p TVs sold these days are either small or extreme budget.  The market is shifting to mainstream 4k, and so are most content providers.  This is the new generation's starting point.

And we're not even in it yet.  It's far from a climate like the Wii's launch where HDTVs weren't close to a critical mass.

The type of consumer you're speaking about isn't usually the sort that buys consoles at launch, or early into the cycle.  You do realize there's a significant uphill battle in getting them to drop money on the brand new gimped model, right?  According to you, they can't even be bothered with cheapo 4K TVs...

[skillzdadirecta]

6 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Almost every new TV model that hits the market these days is 4K.  Most 1080p TVs sold these days are either small or extreme budget.  The market is shifting to mainstream 4k, and so are most content providers.  This is the new generation's starting point.

And we're not even in it yet.  It's far from a climate like the Wii's launch where HDTVs weren't close to a critical mass.

The type of consumer you're speaking about isn't usually the sort that buys consoles at launch, or early into the cycle.  You do realize there's a significant uphill battle in getting them to drop money on the brand new gimped model, right?  According to you, they can't even be bothered with cheapo 4K TVs...

Even thought most TV's being sold today are 4K, most people aren't watching a lot of 4K content on them. There just isn't a lot of 4K content out there yet and most folks legit don't know the difference. I know that ABC and ESPN both broadcast in 720p... at least that's the resolution we deliver cuts to them at.

[crispy4000]

4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Even thought most TV's being sold today are 4K, most people aren't watching a lot of 4K content on them. There just isn't a lot of 4K content out there yet and most folks legit don't know the difference. I know that ABC and ESPN both broadcast in 720p... at least that's the resolution we deliver cuts to them at.

Steaming services are the biggest exceptions.  Cable and local broadcasters haven’t caught up yet, though if you buy a UHD version of a newer broadcasted TV show you’ll typically get it in a higher-than HD resolution.

 

Technically, there’s not a lot of ‘4K video’ that’s true 4K either, even in theatrical releases.   But you don’t have to look far on YouTube for content that, at the very least, pushes above HD.  It’s ironic that streaming services are higher quality than a cable feed you’d pay a ton more for, but that’s the reality we live in.  It also follows with how society is switching its viewing habits.

 

Just to mention it, there’s more games have to worry about in regard to resolution and clarity.  Dynamic-res leads to a blurrier picture than a native feed.  And live video doesn’t have to worry about AA and jaggies in the same way.

 

[skillzdadirecta]

26 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Steaming services are the biggest exceptions.  Cable and local broadcasters haven’t caught up yet, though if you buy a UHD version of a newer broadcasted TV show you’ll typically get it in a higher-than HD resolution.

 

Technically, there’s not a lot of ‘4K video’ that’s true 4K either, even in theatrical releases.   But you don’t have to look far on YouTube for content that, at the very least, pushes above HD.  It’s ironic that streaming services are higher quality than a cable feed you’d pay a ton more for, but that’s the reality we live in.  It also follows with how society is switching its viewing habits.

 

Just to mention it, there’s more games have to worry about in regard to resolution and clarity.  Dynamic-res leads to a blurrier picture than a native feed.  And live video doesn’t have to worry about AA and jaggies in the same way.

 

 

All of these is true... it's also true that the average consumer has yet to demonstrate that they really give a shit about 4K despite owning 4K tv's. That's just a fact. I try to convince my parents to watch their cable shows through the apps on their smart TV rather than watching through the cable box... it goes right over their heads. They are not the exception but rather the rule. And my nieces and nephews watch everything either on their phones or tablets. 4K doesn't mean that much to them either... The streaming services are more future proofing their content by having 4K be the norm (I've seen the delivery specs for Netflix, Amazon and others) but right now? 4K resolution is not as important as you seem to think it is.

[TwinIon]

I couldn't find any real numbers, but I doubt even 20% of people pay Netflix for 4K content. Amazon provides 4K shows, but they do so in a way that generally surfaces the non-4K versions. HBO doesn't do 4K. Hulu does very little. As far as I know, non of the streaming TV platforms offer 4K, and thanks to VP9 shenanigans, few people can watch YouTube in 4K on their TVs. Disney+ is the only streaming service I can think of that provides 4K for everyone and doe so seamlessly, but I don't think it's a huge factor quite yet.

 

I did find some studies that say that half of people with 4K sets have ever watched something in 4K, but that was just if they were aware of having done so even once. If I were to venture a complete guess, I'd say that maybe 10-20% of people care enough about 4K to actually pay for it, get it working, and find the content, and even for those people (like myself) a huge amount of their content is still not in 4K.

 

Bottom line, for a budget next gen console, rendering around 1080p is absolutely good enough for the customers that would be buying it. There is no doubt in my mind, and I'm sure that MS is considering that when setting their graphics targets.

[JPDunks4]

I have a 2080ti an i9-9900k, and play at 1440p max  I know a few others with similar setups that are running 1080p monitors.  I just really think there is a huge portion of the gaming base, specifically the multiplayer focused games, that don't care at all about 4k, and just care purely on performance and frame rates.  I think great single player story driven games should continue to push the boundaries of graphics and performance, but so many games need to focus in on performance first.

 

From a competitive gaming standpoint especially, Valorant is set to be one of the hotter games coming out, and it can run in Intel HD Graphic cards.

 

 

 

[Duderino]

As I see it, the biggest potential pitfall of Lockhart is not it dropping to even lower resolutions.  Instead, It's maintaining enough parity with Series X and PS5 as the generation progresses.  Further resolution drops alone are not gaurenteed to get this hypothetical 4TF console capable of running games its big brother can.  There is a possibility here that this sku could require special considerations and different solutions from developers.

 

Keep in mind the compute gains of lowering the res are relative to the GPU's output.  The more future games leverage resolution independent compute tasks, the harder it will be to port to Lockhart.

[silentbob]

Now could the lower end price mean that they can try to make up the graphical presence by allowing/forcing Ray Tracing to make it seem 4K? Although Ray Tracing is t cheap either, right?

 

I'm completely new to the whole PC and graphics cards and shit, but I got my first gaming pc to play Halo with buddies again. 

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Bottom line, for a budget next gen console, rendering around 1080p is absolutely good enough for the customers that would be buying it. There is no doubt in my mind, and I'm sure that MS is considering that when setting their graphics targets.

 

1080p would be the threshold, IMO.  I don't think we'd see people rushing out to buy a new console in 2020 that can't even promise that.  Not without some other feature, like portability.

 

As I've said, lower-end gamers aren't typically those that buy consoles at launch anyways.

[crispy4000]

5 hours ago, silentbob said:

Now could the lower end price mean that they can try to make up the graphical presence by allowing/forcing Ray Tracing to make it seem 4K? Although Ray Tracing is t cheap either, right?

 

I'm completely new to the whole PC and graphics cards and shit, but I got my first gaming pc to play Halo with buddies again. 

It's not likely that a lower end 4TF console could do much raytracing at all.  The big boy machines could struggle at 1440p or even 1080p with it added to modern games, depending on how far devs take it.  It's more likely they'd straight up remove most raytraced effects for Lockhart.

 

[Brian]

Reviewed plans yesterday for continued sharing through launch. Team is doing great work and adapting. I've never been more excited about Xbox plans. We've heard you, you want transparency/authenticity. We plan to keep showing that way, next step is not too much of a wait (games)

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) April 23, 2020

[Brian]

I’ve been saying for a year that CPU and SSD are key to next-gen consoles, not teraflops. Developers are saying the same thing. I’ve also been saying Lockhart won’t undermine next-gen games... https://t.co/4ydtLbQEwQ

— Tom Warren (@tomwarren) April 23, 2020

[Duderino]

I agree that TF counts will not be the biggest defining factor next gen.

 

Whether or not Lockhart will undermine next-gen games though depends on what individual developers' intend uses are for the true generational GPU bump with the Series X and PS5.