Television The Plot Against America - David Simon alternate history HBO miniseries. What if the US turned fascist before WWII?

[CitizenVectron]

 

 

Quote

From creators David Simon and Ed Burns comes The Plot Against America, an alternate American history story of the country’s turn to fascism told through the eyes of a working-class Jewish family in New Jersey. Starring Zoe Kazan, Morgan Spector, Winona Ryder, and John Turturro, the limited series premieres on March 16th at 9PM.

 

 

Looks great!

 

[Greatoneshere]

I'm tired of "what if" series. Maybe focus on the actual problems we're actually facing? Despite that, David Simon is great so I hope it's good. I just wish we'd stop going to the past to make up alternate histories that are metaphors for the present. Just, ya know, focus on the present. 

 

Like: "what if the US turned facist before WWII?" Yeah, who cares, we didn't. How about how we're turning fascist right now? It's like the more the present scares us, the more we put our heads in the sand to remember the past, where it was "better" or remember how it "could have gone". Okay, boomer.  

[SuperSpreader]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm tired of "what if" series. Maybe focus on the actual problems we're actually facing? 

 

Like: "what if the US turned facist before WWII?" Yeah, who cares, we didn't. How about how we're turning fascist right now?

What I was about to say!

[CastlevaniaNut18]

A coworker gave me the book to read. I've been meaning to get around to it. Didn't know they were doing a series.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm tired of "what if" series. Maybe focus on the actual problems we're actually facing? Despite that, David Simon is great so I hope it's good. I just wish we'd stop going to the past to make up alternate histories that are metaphors for the present. Just, ya know, focus on the present. 

 

Like: "what if the US turned facist before WWII?" Yeah, who cares, we didn't. How about how we're turning fascist right now? It's like the more the present scares us, the more we put our heads in the sand to remember the past, where it was "better" or remember how it "could have gone". Okay, boomer.  

It is an easy way to appear more thoughtful and creative than the filmmakers involved actually are. It’s cheap texture at this point.

[Greatoneshere]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

It is an easy way to appear more thoughtful and creative than the filmmakers involved actually are. It’s cheap texture at this point.

 

Yeah, I totally agree! I mean, it could be good (Man in the High Castle was solid enough) but at this point I feel like everyone is trying to avoid grim reality, when that's what people need to be confronting. Scientists moved the doomsday clock to 100 seconds to midnight this month, maybe, ya know, make a show addressing the issues causing that.  

[sexy_shapiro]

43 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm tired of "what if" series. Maybe focus on the actual problems we're actually facing? Despite that, David Simon is great so I hope it's good. I just wish we'd stop going to the past to make up alternate histories that are metaphors for the present. Just, ya know, focus on the present. 

 

Like: "what if the US turned facist before WWII?" Yeah, who cares, we didn't. How about how we're turning fascist right now? It's like the more the present scares us, the more we put our heads in the sand to remember the past, where it was "better" or remember how it "could have gone". Okay, boomer.  

I know you were a big fan of Watchmen, which is an alternate present. How is that much different than an alternate past?

[Greatoneshere]

22 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

I know you were a big fan of Watchmen, which is an alternate present. How is that much different than an alternate past?

 

An alternate future is much more interesting than an alternate past. Additionally, Watchmen already exists in an alternate universe, so I was ready to forgive it a lot, but it still needed to be compelling. As I said, it's not that this show can't be good, I just wish we'd deal with our present more. More and more shows seem uninterested in dealing with climate change, poor world leadership, and the potential for real nuclear war when that's what we're dealing with today. 

[sexy_shapiro]

24 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

An alternate future is much more interesting than an alternate past. Additionally, Watchmen already exists in an alternate universe, so I was ready to forgive it a lot, but it still needed to be compelling. As I said, it's not that this show can't be good, I just wish we'd deal with our present more. More and more shows seem uninterested in dealing with climate change, poor world leadership, and the potential for real nuclear war when that's what we're dealing with today. 

I think an alternate present functions pretty much the same way as an alternate past. You also loved the Watchmen movie, which is essentially an alternate past.

An alternate past still seems way more relevant than a lot of the escapist shit that Disney is churning out. It seems like a weird double standard to be overly critical of something like this, which is clearly intending to say something about the present, while simultaneously giving a pass to media that is designed to keep people from thinking about the news as much as possible.

[CitizenVectron]

I mean, also, the book already exists.

[thewhyteboar]

The book is fantastic. 

[johnny]

I don’t really mind if people want to do alternate past stuff. I don’t see anything wrong with it in theory. If it’s good then I’m in. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, sexy_shapiro said:

I think an alternate present functions pretty much the same way as an alternate past. You also loved the Watchmen movie, which is essentially an alternate past.

An alternate past still seems way more relevant than a lot of the escapist shit that Disney is churning out. It seems like a weird double standard to be overly critical of something like this, which is clearly intending to say something about the present, while simultaneously giving a pass to media that is designed to keep people from thinking about the news as much as possible.

 

No, I don't think it's the same.

[sexy_shapiro]

21 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

No, I don't think it's the same.

Well I don’t understand what is different about it, and I’ll await a good explanation. It sounds  more like your personal preference than an actual critique.

 

Media about the past can still very much be about the present. Jojo Rabbit, I would argue, has as much to say about the present as it does the past.

[Greatoneshere]

17 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

Well I don’t understand what is different about it, and I’ll await a good explanation. It sounds  more like your personal preference than an actual critique.

 

Media about the past can still very much be about the present. Jojo Rabbit, I would argue, has as much to say about the present as it does the past.

 

Are you suggesting you don't see the difference between alternate pasts and alternate futures? Yes, I think alternate futures have more value than alternate pasts. And the focus by showrunners for the latter than the former tells me that creators have given up on understanding the current climate. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

It’s a show. If it’s good, that’s all that really matters. There are plenty of options out there. 

[Keyser_Soze]

6 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm tired of "what if" series. Maybe focus on the actual problems we're actually facing? Despite that, David Simon is great so I hope it's good. I just wish we'd stop going to the past to make up alternate histories that are metaphors for the present. Just, ya know, focus on the present. 

 

Like: "what if the US turned facist before WWII?" Yeah, who cares, we didn't. How about how we're turning fascist right now? It's like the more the present scares us, the more we put our heads in the sand to remember the past, where it was "better" or remember how it "could have gone". Okay, boomer.  

 

Because people like old things. This is why COD Future Wallrunning edition didn't work.

[Greatoneshere]

13 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

It’s a show. If it’s good, that’s all that really matters. There are plenty of options out there. 

 

Obviously. I'm just speaking towards the general trend, not that it can't be a good show.

[Bloodporne]

Allegorical storytelling, the Alt-Right Trumpster scheme catering to Satanic boomers. 

 

Okay millenial. 

 

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I like my fiction taking place along time ago in a galaxy far far away, or in the 24th century. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

6 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Obviously. I'm just speaking towards the general trend, not that it can't be a good show.

I didn't know two shows in the last several years was a trend or am I missing out on a bunch of other shows?

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I didn't know two shows in the last several years was a trend or am I missing out on a bunch of other shows?

 

There have been a lot of announced "alternate history" shows, like the cancelled Confederate. Then The Man in the High Castle and this show. There are others, but they are all at different levels of pre-production. It's just as the current world deteriorates, there seems to be this big push to do lots of "alternate history" shows has been my sense of it at least. I'm not against "alternate history" shows, they do work as metaphor and allegory, I just worry it's a trend of yet more people putting their heads in the sand and not dealing with today's issues. It's why a show like Euphoria is so good. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

There have been a lot of announced "alternate history" shows, like the cancelled Confederate. Then The Man in the High Castle and this show. There are others, but they are all at different levels of pre-production. It's just as the current world deteriorates, there seems to be this big push to do lots of "alternate history" shows has been my sense of it at least.

Well, if a show was canceled, then I guess you really can't count it.

 

Either way, there are countless great shows out there to watch that aren't alternative history.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Well, if a show was canceled, then I guess you really can't count it.

 

Either way, there are countless great shows out there to watch that aren't alternative history.

 

No doubt - I was simply making an observation in my original post. It's just not a route I want to personally see someone as talented as David Simon bother to go down is all. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I just know the book got moved way up on my TBR pile. Sometimes it's hard to pick when you've got 200 books on your shelves waiting to be read.

[sexy_shapiro]

20 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Are you suggesting you don't see the difference between alternate pasts and alternate futures? Yes, I think alternate futures have more value than alternate pasts. And the focus by showrunners for the latter than the former tells me that creators have given up on understanding the current climate. 

I understand the difference from the most basic level. What I don’t understand is how one premise is inherently more valuable than the other. I don’t understand how you think a show like this is escapism and is trying to ignore the present. It’s like you think subtext needs to be be made explicitly into text in order for it to comment on the present.

 

Just based on the trailer alone it clearly is intended to be timely. It’s certainly more timely than say, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, an alternate history movie that was more about Hollywood and Tarantino’s filmography than actual current events.

[Greatoneshere]

9 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

I understand the difference from the most basic level. What I don’t understand is how one premise is inherently more valuable than the other. I don’t understand how you think a show like this is escapism and is trying to ignore the present. It’s like you think subtext needs to be be made explicitly into text in order for it to comment on the present.

 

Just based on the trailer alone it clearly is intended to be timely. It’s certainly more timely than say, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, an alternate history movie that was more about Hollywood and Tarantino’s filmography than actual current events.

 

Not at all - I was simply making an observation that I think there are more interesting storytelling avenues than "alternate history" premises - such a premise just strikes me as lazy is all, not that it can't be done well. I enjoyed The Man in the High Castle, for instance. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I just know the book got moved way up on my TBR pile. Sometimes it's hard to pick when you've got 200 books on your shelves waiting to be read.

 

So true - in every medium there's just too much good shit! Remember when we used to be able to actually consume it all when it wasn't too much? 

[sexy_shapiro]

2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Not at all - I was simply making an observation that I think there are more interesting storytelling avenues than "alternate history" premises - such a premise just strikes me as lazy is all, not that it can't be done well. I enjoyed The Man in the High Castle, for instance. 

It’s more of an opinion than an observation. I’m just asking questions here. I would love hear your explanation as to why this is a lazy premise or not interesting. I’m just trying to understand your line of thinking here haha. I don’t get why something timely like this is burying your head in the sand and not accepting reality while something like F9 or Mandalorian is perfectly fine.

[Greatoneshere]

15 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

It’s more of an opinion than an observation. I’m just asking questions here. I would love hear your explanation as to why this is a lazy premise or not interesting. I’m just trying to understand your line of thinking here haha. I don’t get why something timely like this is burying your head in the sand and not accepting reality while something like F9 or Mandalorian is perfectly fine.

 

The only reason that I think it's "burying their head in the sand" is because this cavalcade of alternate history shows is a new trend, that happens to be happening at the same time as the present is at its very worst. It's just a theory on my part, but those two things don't seem mutually exclusive to me. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

To a certain extent, alternative history almost acts as a sort of "moral absolution" in which people can pat themselves on the back that those pasts were avoided while failing to recognize the reality of the current situation.

 

They aren't so much "cautionary" tales (as is supposedly their intent) as much as "congratulatory" ones.

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

To a certain extent, alternative history almost acts as a sort of "moral absolution" in which people can pat themselves on the back that those pasts were avoided while failing to recognize the reality of the current situation.

 

They aren't so much "cautionary" tales (as is supposedly their intent) as much as "congratulatory" ones.

 

Exactly. Said better than I could have. Nicely worded, sir. 

[sexy_shapiro]

39 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

To a certain extent, alternative history almost acts as a sort of "moral absolution" in which people can pat themselves on the back that those pasts were avoided while failing to recognize the reality of the current situation.

 

They aren't so much "cautionary" tales (as is supposedly their intent) as much as "congratulatory" ones.

This book was written by a Jewish American near the beginning of the Iraq War. Considering the timing, I don’t think he wrote he wrote it to congratulate America for being infallible.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, sexy_shapiro said:

This book was written by a Jewish American near the beginning of the Iraq War. Considering the timing, I don’t think he wrote he wrote it to congratulate America for being infallible.

 

I think it's less about the book and the timing of the announcement of the TV show. 

[sexy_shapiro]

6 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think it's less about the book and the timing of the announcement of the TV show. 

If the book was written at the beginning of the Iraq War and was a response to Bush-era rhetoric and policy, then it is just as relevant today! And let’s have some good faith here. I don’t think David Simon would work on a show thar exists to congratulate America’s moral superiority. That is... just not what he’s into.

 

Did you watch the trailer? I don’t see how anyone with half a brain could watch that and say, “Oh, this clearly has nothing to do with current events.” I honestly got chills based on how real it seems compared to today’s events. I’m going to have a hard time watching this show knowing how bad things are getting in today’s America.