Microsoft Senua's Saga: Hellblade II - Information Thread, update (05/24): "Can Xbox Series S (and Steam Deck/ROG Ally) handle Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2?" (Digital Foundry technical analysis)

[skillzdadirecta]

59 minutes ago, ShreddieMercury said:

It's undeniably a slow, cinematic experience first, and rudimentary video game second. 

This is what I was afraid of. If that's the case then the narrative better be damn good. I don't have a problem with "games" like this, but when their narrative loses me and I stop giving a shit then without engaging gameplay, all of the atmosphere and presentation in the world won't save the game for me. I just restarted the first game last night and while the puzzles can get a little tedious, so far I think the pacing is right about where it should be for a game like this. Pacing is where Alan Wake 2 let me down... amongst other things. We'll see with Hellblade 2.

[stepee]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 I mean, PC Gamer gave it a 58, and Gamespot gave it a 6/10 -- isn't that the definition of mixed?

 

I think that is more the definition of some major outlier outside the norm. By metacritic’s own definition the games review reception is considered “generally favorable” with 71% “positive”, 21% “mixed” and 1% “negative” - Even if you count mixed as negative here, the reception is definitely positive overall.

 

That sounds like a positive reception with a couple standout majors that didn’t get along with it.

 

For an example of a game with a “mixed reception”, Harold Halibit mentioned earlier is a game that fits the bill more accurately as an example. That has a 69 (nice) meta that according to metacritic is “mixed or Average” with a division of only 37% positive, 56% mixed, and 0% negative.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

55 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

So read a couple of reviews, summary:

1)  Only 6 hours long

2)  Combat is super simple

3)  Puzzles are so simple a child could solve them

4)  Story is not good.

But the visuals and audio are amazing.  Hard to swallow for a full priced game.  

 

I mean, PC Gamer gave it a 58, and Gamespot gave it a 6/10 -- isn't that the definition of mixed?

on the one hand I like that we live in a world a game with the kind of development focus as Hellblade 2 can get made and have spent nearly 5 years being developed. 
 

on the other hand why is taking nearly 5 years to make a 6 hour game with simplistic game mechanics when there has been reportedly upwards of 80 people working on it.  

[Best]

8 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

why is taking nearly 5 years to make a 6 hour game with simplistic game mechanics when there has been reportedly upwards of 80 people working on it.  

 

I think you answered your own question. 80 people developing a game is nothing these days. They did accomplish making a game look photo-realistic so there's that. 

[Keyser_Soze]

Just watch some of the videos ITT. They have someone making real costumes for the actors to move around in. That's what's taking so long!

[Best]

What engine is being used here?

 

As I was playing I kept saying to myself what if ES6 had these types of visuals. 

[stepee]

I think part of it is just the game was likely very very early when they first showed it because they had nothing else to show at that time. It looks like Hellblade took a bit over 3 years. Add a studio transition to moving under MS, development and support for Bleeding Edge, an incredibly high bar for graphic fidelity, the lead writer/director/co founder leaving the company, adopting UE5 when it was very early, still being developed, and very un-performant, and judging by track record, probably some fuckery by MS leadership, and you got your half decade eaten up! 

[Greatoneshere]

24 minutes ago, stepee said:

I think part of it is just the game was likely very very early when they first showed it because they had nothing else to show at that time. It looks like Hellblade took a bit over 3 years. Add a studio transition to moving under MS, development and support for Bleeding Edge, an incredibly high bar for graphic fidelity, the lead writer/director/co founder leaving the company, adopting UE5 when it was very early, still being developed, and very un-performant, and judging by track record, probably some fuckery by MS leadership, and you got your half decade eaten up! 

 

All of this. The development team has said that the gameplay trailer shown in December 2021 at The Game Awards was really when development ramped up. Everything before then from the announcement trailer in December 2019 until this gameplay trailer they were working on Bleeding Edge and then transitioning to being under the Microsoft Game Studios umbrella. Not saying 3 years of full on development is short or anything, but given the experience they've managed to create where everything is a set piece, it's impressive. It's fair to think that game development was 5 years (or more) given the announcement trailer in December 2019 but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

Ninja Theory Reveals When Hellblade 2 Development Started

GAMERANT.COM

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Ninja Theory studio head Dom Matthews reveals that Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 hasn't been in development as long as fans may believe.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

29 minutes ago, best3444 said:

What engine is being used here?

Unreal Engine 5

[Best]

7 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Unreal Engine 5

 

Yummy. I can't wait to see more from it.

[AbsolutSurgen]

47 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

Yummy. I can't wait to see more from it.

Listened to the Kinda Funny podcast today.  They were really positive on the graphics/sound.

[stepee]

9 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Listened to the Kinda Funny podcast today.  They were really positive on the graphics/sound.

 

Instead of waiting for it to hit $20 - get a month of gamepass and play now then buy it for $10 next year on cdkeys if you want to own it!

 

Its going to be hard to put it against Avatar/CP77 because it’s the scale along with everything else but it’s at least on par with path traced AW2 imo.

[Best]

17 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Listened to the Kinda Funny podcast today.  They were really positive on the graphics/sound.

 

I'm about to play more. I'm going to make sure I turn subtitles on because there is so much inner dialogue that I'm missing. 

[Best]

Halfway through. In daylight these are hands down the most realistic visuals I've ever seen. UR5 is incredible. I really can't distinguish this from a videogame to watching a movie. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I've updated the OpenCritic reviews post:

 

 

[Best]

Finally a story is developing which makes things worth while moving on. There was litteraly nothing going on in the first 3 hours lol. What's now presented is really cool and GOW like. 

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, best3444 said:

Halfway through. In daylight these are hands down the most realistic visuals I've ever seen. UR5 is incredible. I really can't distinguish this from a videogame to watching a movie. 

Did you ever play the Enter the Matrix XSX/PS5 tech demo?

[Best]

Just now, Spork3245 said:

Did you ever play the Enter the Matrix XSX/PS5 tech demo?

 

Yes and I was really impressed at the time. Its been at least 3 years since I saw it though. 

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, best3444 said:

 

Yes and I was really impressed at the time. Its been at least 3 years since I saw it though. 

That’s also UE5. Hellblade 2 is using a newer more optimized version of the engine.

[Dexterryu]

Looking forward to playing it this weekend (gamepass). My sense based on the reviews/feedback in this thread is it's a true sequel... more basic but fun combat, amazing sound and graphics. Narrative enjoyment is subjective... if you like norse and the elements of psychosis, which is what the first one had quite a bit of then this seems like a better version of all of these things.

[Best]

7 minutes ago, Dexterryu said:

Looking forward to playing it this weekend (gamepass). My sense based on the reviews/feedback in this thread is it's a true sequel... more basic but fun combat, amazing sound and graphics. Narrative enjoyment is subjective... if you like norse and the elements of psychosis, which is what the first one had quite a bit of then this seems like a better version of all of these things.

 

This is correct. 

[crispy4000]

4 hours ago, best3444 said:

Halfway through. In daylight these are hands down the most realistic visuals I've ever seen. UR5 is incredible. I really can't distinguish this from a videogame to watching a movie. 

 

I think this is the game that gets console gamers to say 30fps isn’t that bad again.  Until more powerful console hardware comes around and we do the same song and dance.

[Best]

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Text article that accompanies the Digital Foundry video:

 

Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 is a defining moment in the evolution of real-time graphics

WWW.EUROGAMER.NET

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The Digital Foundry verdict on the technology of Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2.

 

Quote

 

Hellblade 2 is one of the Unreal Engine 5 games to ship that takes full advantage of everything the engine has to offer to produce visuals that feel like a genuine leap forward. So how does it manifest? Firstly, there's Lumen global illumination. Hellblade 2 is a game that relies primarily on natural lighting split between natural sunlight and light sources such as fire. Hellblade 2 is largely a dark game but there are scenes which take place during the day and Lumen allows very natural indirect and direct lighting. As the lighting is entirely real-time without a baked component, this also allows the developers to pull off some fancy visual tricks. For instance, when there is a time jump, the game can pull the camera out and shift the position of the sun in real-time. Shadows and indirect lighting update accordingly enhanced by the volumetric cloud sim above.

 

Lumen reflections are also in use on shiny surfaces such as pools of water, though it would appear to be using the software Lumen path (as opposed to hardware-accelerate ray tracing) as the reflections visible beneath the layered screen-space reflections exhibit obvious SDF artefacts. The only issue with this configuration is that screen-space reflections can cause issues with certain dynamic objects such as when carrying your torch through sunken ruins - it reflects across the surface unrealistically due to the use of SSR. What's neat is that thanks to the fully real-time lighting, the photo mode even allows players to add lights into a scene and manipulate them in real-time. Suddenly, photo mode itself behaves more like an actual film shoot where you can manually place key lights to get the best shots

 

 

Quote

 

Feeding into the lighting is the heavy reliance on environmental effects. For instance, the robust volumetric effects are a standout with many scenes exhibiting mist, low hanging clouds, smoke and more. Ninja Theory seems to combine Unreal's volumetric fog system with additional fog materials designed to give the impression of swirling smoke. You'll see these effects used across the entire game and the fidelity on Series X is kept impressively high with minimal break-up and noise.

 

Another effect that impressed me is the water - specifically the way it interacts with the environments. You begin the game washed up on a beach and I immediately appreciated the excellent visualisation of waves crashing on the shore. In that same scene, an intense rainfall fills the scene with beautiful particles that convincingly capture the feeling of inclement weather. The mix of rain and volumetrics is simply beautiful, but I was equally impressed by the game's water streaming system - which often falls short in even some of the most high-profile triple-A titles. There's even a scene where you drain a lake to reveal an underground passage which just looks amazing in motion.

 

 

Quote

 

Then there's Epic's next-gen geometry system: Nanite. This is designed to allow extreme mesh density while virtually eliminating visible pop-in. That means that as you move through the game world, everything remains stable without asset draw-in and other distracting artefacts. That aspect by itself is deeply impressive and contributes to the photorealism on display. Ninja Theory really flexes this when transitioning between different scenes: as the camera swoops down from above, there is simply no visible pop-in within the presentation - a rare thing when moving at speed over vast vistas.

 

Nanite also helps the artists create large-scale scenes with minimal repetition and tiling. The assets themselves rely on scanned photogrammetry assets based on various trips the team took during development. Interestingly, the locale of choice for this game is a perfect match for the initial release of Unreal Engine 5 - that is, lots of rocks. Of course, Hellblade does feature scenes with foliage, but a lot of the game world reminds me of that initial tech demo and it's cool to see it come to fruition in a shipping game. That's not to say everything is flawless here - the scenes look their best from the normal gameplay perspective but if you stop and zoom in, you will certainly notice limitations in the raw assets at times. In other scenes, things hold up much better, but it is something you might notice when poking and prodding. This isn't really a complaint, however, and it doesn't negatively affect the in-game visuals - just an observation. I think this is more a limitation of manpower and time than anything else.

 

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

On 5/22/2024 at 2:51 PM, Greatoneshere said:

 

All of this. The development team has said that the gameplay trailer shown in December 2021 at The Game Awards was really when development ramped up. Everything before then from the announcement trailer in December 2019 until this gameplay trailer they were working on Bleeding Edge and then transitioning to being under the Microsoft Game Studios umbrella. Not saying 3 years of full on development is short or anything, but given the experience they've managed to create where everything is a set piece, it's impressive. It's fair to think that game development was 5 years (or more) given the announcement trailer in December 2019 but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

Ninja Theory Reveals When Hellblade 2 Development Started

GAMERANT.COM

---

Ninja Theory studio head Dom Matthews reveals that Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 hasn't been in development as long as fans may believe.

 

That’s still a long time for ~80 people to make what is essentially a visual novel.

[stepee]

Damn John’s DF review was great. Sounds like an absolute triumph especially for real time rendering on console. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

That’s still a long time for ~80 people to make what is essentially a visual novel.

 

Is it when it looks and feels like Hellblade II? I've played VN's and this is more walking simulator like Firewatch than VN if you want to be dismissive of the game.  

[Ominous]

Shocked my 3090 can run this 1440p with DLAA and hit 60 FPS (so far). Need to find time to get this in at some point, sure is purdy. 

[atom631]

just finished it! I will say... this was certainly an experience (more than its a game). It makes me excited to see what's to come because it's a technical marvel. MUST PLAY WITH HEADPHONES!!!! You will be doing yourself a disservice if you dont. 

 

As for the game... its more of Hellblade, which to me is a good thing. The puzzles are just as easy and the combat is basically the same, but its enjoyable. I never found it to be a slog..which is probably bc its really short. Im actually OK that its short because the gameplay arc gets repetitive towards the end and I dont need every game I play taking me dozens of hours (especially since the nice weather is finally here on the east coast). My gamepass says I spent a total of 8.4 hours playing. I had some issues in the beginning getting it running right on my PC.  So i spent a good 30-45 min making changes. I also went back after I completed it to get the rest of lore trees and faces (missed a total of 3, all in the beginning bc my HDR was messed up and I couldn't see shit). 

 

EDIT - Need to discuss the story once more of you finish. Not sure how I feel about it or ultimately what it all means. 

 

Is it worth $50?  Only if you really liked the first one. Otherwise, just play it on gamepass. 

[stepee]

I’ll probably start this weekend (only checking the beginning to get all my settings right and testing it on different devices) for realz, definitely looking forward to it. It could definitely be a GOTY for me like the original one was but some of these platformers coming out have also been fire.

[Best]

Playing more now. I'm over halfway through. I'm not as enthusiastic as others about it. Once you get past the visuals and sound design there is very, very little gameplay. I barely played the first so this is new to me. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

As @atom631 said, this series really shouldn't be called "videogames" per se, but rather "interactive experiences".

[Best]

Just now, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

As @atom631 said, this series really shouldn't be called "videogames" per se, but rather "interactive experiences".

 

Yea I have to get that ingrained in my head. It’s an interactive movie. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

22 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Playing more now. I'm over halfway through. I'm not as enthusiastic as others about it. Once you get past the visuals and sound design there is very, very little gameplay. I barely played the first so this is new to me. 

 

7 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

Yea I have to get that ingrained in my head. It’s an interactive movie. 

Greg Miller decided to put the last few encounters (incl. final boss) on the "autoplay" mode, because he disliked the combat so much.

[Best]

14 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

Greg Miller decided to put the last few encounters (incl. final boss) on the "autoplay" mode, because he disliked the combat so much.

 

The combat is extremely basic but it's fun to execute blows and dodge. I completely forget if part 1 was like this where each combat encounter is a one on one cinematic....

 

I just solved a "puzzle" that my niece could figure out.