General Gaming Kotaku: The Video Games That Made People Question Their Beliefs

[Pikachu]

https://kotaku.com/the-video-games-that-made-people-question-their-beliefs-1836045401

 

Quote

When Scott Udall first played Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance shortly after it came out in 2005, he was in a vulnerable spot. Udall, who grew up Mormon in Salt Lake City, Utah, was very religious, and his family were all politically active Republicans. His parents had gone through a messy divorce, and he’d lost contact with his father’s side of the family. He found solace in Path of Radiance’s world, and when the sequel, Radiant Dawn, came out two years later, he was excited to revisit the characters. He didn’t realize when he started playing that Radiant Dawn would become a catalyst that shook him from his previously held convictions.

 

Path of Radiance is pretty standard Japanese role-playing game fare. The world in which it takes place is on the brink of war, with the larger nation of Daein occupying the smaller nation of Crimea. With your party, you drive the Daein occupiers away from Crimea. Radiant Dawn, a direct sequel, takes place largely in Daein, where the tables have turned: Now Daien is the country being occupied. Path of Radiance is told from the point of view of the Daein rebels, who form a guerilla group to protest the way they’re being oppressed by their occupiers.

 

By 2007, the Iraq War was in full swing. Udall told Kotaku over the phone that as a kid, he hadn’t really considered the humanity of the Iraqi people. He was just barely out of childhood when the war started, and his entire family and community supported it. But Radiant Dawn forced him to think about what it would be like to live in an occupied country. It changed something for him.

 

“Ex-Mormons talk about your shelf. You put stuff on your shelf that makes you question the church, and then you can keep it up there,” Udall said. “For some people, eventually the shelf just breaks.”

 

Continued

 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I freaking loved Path of Radiance. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Wow.  That read like a high school essay.  How can you take a piece seriously when it contains?

Quote

Josh Berkstresser, who has a master’s degree in history and works in learning and organizational development, said that the instant feedback of the Mass Effect series strenghtened [sic] his position against genocide.

 

How does anybody on this planet have a position on genocide that isn't extreme.  I have seriously never heard anyone say, "I think genocide is OK under the right circumstances".

[Paperclyp]

5 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Wow.  That read like a high school essay.  How can you take a piece seriously when it contains?

 

How does anybody on this planet have a position on genocide that isn't extreme.  I have seriously never heard anyone say, "I think genocide is OK under the right circumstances".

This kind of ignores the context in that part of the story. It’s a great science fiction question. The Quarians created the Geth, robots, who then acquired sentience. 

 

The piece makes it clear that obviously nobody (who isn’t absurdly racist and evil) supports genocide in the aggregate. But the game makes you think about this in a different way, by having a character you care about wishing this race of robots exterminated for her own reasons, which you can agree or not agree with. I’m guessing a lot of people who played the game just liked Tali and went along with her without thinking about it as genocide, when the guy in the story DID like Tali and felt bad for her but stuck to his guns and said no, this isn’t right. 

 

It’s not like he thought maybe genocide was ok until he played the game. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

This kind of ignores the context in that part of the story. It’s a great science fiction question. The Quarians created the Geth, robots, who then acquired sentience. 

 

The piece makes it clear that obviously nobody (who isn’t absurdly racist and evil) supports genocide in the aggregate. But the game makes you think about this in a different way, by having a character you care about wishing this race of robots exterminated for her own reasons, which you can agree or not agree with. I’m guessing a lot of people who played the game just liked Tali and went along with her without thinking about it as genocide, when the guy in the story DID like Tali and felt bad for her but stuck to his guns and said no, this isn’t right. 

 

It’s not like he thought maybe genocide was ok until he played the game. 

If the topic of the entire article is how video games changed your beliefs, then it's probably not a good choice to include in the story.  Is it?

 

I could write a long diatribe on why I think it is poorly written.  But the fact that I had to add a [sic] to the one sentence that I decided to copy says volumes.

[Paperclyp]

15 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

If the topic of the entire article is how video games changed your beliefs, then it's probably not a good choice to include in the story.  Is it?

 

I could write a long diatribe on why I think it is poorly written.  But the fact that I had to add a [sic] to the one sentence that I decided to copy says volumes.

It’s not a story that made you change them though. It’s made you question your beliefs. 

 

The guy was stoutly against genocide to begin with. The game places reasons in front of you to make you waver in that belief. It made the guy think, and ultimately he was even more stout in the end. 

 

It’s a fun idea for a story. You’re being overly critical. 

[Xbob42]

It's a high school quality article for calling Fire Emblem a JRPG instead of turn-based strategy.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I mean, it's basically both. I usually specify SRPG when referring to Fire Emblem, but I get why it's also called a JRPG at times. 

[Keyser_Soze]

When will they bring out Fire Emblem Auto Chess?

[Xbob42]

If I ask what great JRPGs are out this year and you list Fire Emblem, you and me gonna throw down behind a Walmart dumpster.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Just now, Xbob42 said:

If I ask what great JRPGs are out this year and you list Fire Emblem, you and me gonna throw down behind a Walmart dumpster.

Bring it on, broski. 

[Xbob42]

Well we need to take a ticket first, there's always a long line.

[Bacon]

Ey, yo, fuck the Geth. 

[Mercury33]

If a video game has ever made you challenge your beliefs...they weren’t really beliefs in the fist place, more like considerations. 

[Bloodporne]

Bloodborne was so fucking good, it made me wonder if the Old Ones really do exist and I'm just a pawn in their Lovecraftian schemes to have the moon vomit giant decaying limb monsters into my front yard. Then I turned the console off and continued to live my actual life. 

[SaysWho?]

7 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

If a video game has ever made you challenge your beliefs...they weren’t really beliefs in the fist place, more like considerations. 

 

I feel all media/stories can do this, though? Like TLoU's ending still spawns discussions over 

Spoiler

if Joel made the right decision, if people still like him or if their opinion changed, and other questions surrounding the collective versus the individual.

 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Yeah, I don't think I've ever had a game exactly make me reevaluate my beliefs or anything, but games can definitely be a powerful medium for evoking discussions among people, often as much as movies or books. 

 

Plenty of games have more narrative depth than Pong or Mario.  

[Bloodporne]

10 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I feel all media/stories can do this, though? Like TLoU's ending still spawns discussions over 

  Hide contents

if Joel made the right decision, if people still like him or if their opinion changed, and other questions surrounding the collective versus the individual.

 

I don't disagree with all media/stories being able to do this in some capacity but the way it's presented here, especially the as-always silly hyperbole in their juvenile writing, makes it way funnier than the actual concept would be if it were presented in a more down-to-earth fashion. 

 

I once again have a problem more so with Kotaku itself and their stupid fucking articles rather than the concept behind it.

 

I mean, I found SOMA to be a pretty thought-provoking experience for example. 

 

 

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, Bloodporne said:

I don't disagree with all media/stories being able to do this in some capacity but the way it's presented here, especially the as-always silly hyperbole in their juvenile writing, makes it way funnier than the actual concept would be if it were presented in a more down-to-earth fashion. 

 

I once again have a problem more so with Kotaku itself and their stupid fucking articles rather than the concept behind it.

 

I mean, I found SOMA to be a pretty thought-provoking experience for example. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I mean... I've written a lot of stories, and many people who go into video game journalism have no journalism background. I've actually seen some who are, which is great, but that really affects the quality of the writing/interviews in a lot of this.

 

I think the subject itself is a cool subject to explore, though.

[AbsolutSurgen]

18 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Yeah, I mean... I've written a lot of stories, and many people who go into video game journalism have no journalism background. I've actually seen some who are, which is great, but that really affects the quality of the writing/interviews in a lot of this.

 

I think the subject itself is a cool subject to explore, though.

Generally, the writing in video games is below the standard of other media. It’s an area that has always been subservient to the other disciplines on the teams, IMHO. I’ve heard so many stories of significant structural changes being made to games at the last minute, that it’s sometimes amazing they can cobble together a coherent story. 

[SaysWho?]

28 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Generally, the writing in video games is below the standard of other media. It’s an area that has always been subservient to the other disciplines on the teams, IMHO. I’ve heard so many stories of significant structural changes being made to games at the last minute, that it’s sometimes amazing they can cobble together a coherent story. 

 

I was actually talking about the quality of the writing in these video game pieces.  

 

But yeah, it's such a different beast. A game can have a bad story and terrible dialogue and still be great.

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I was actually talking about the quality of the writing in these video game pieces.  

 

But yeah, it's such a different beast. A game can have a bad story and terrible dialogue and still be great.

My response was a little ambiguous, and I didn't really connect the dots for others.

 

I was trying to convey that the writing is so poor in most video games, that it really doesn't do anything all that thought provoking -- so it is different than other medias, that can challenge your beliefs (with books being the media, that IMHO, have the most impact.) 

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

My response was a little ambiguous, and I didn't really connect the dots for others.

 

I was trying to convey that the writing is so poor in most video games, that it really doesn't do anything all that thought provoking -- so it is different than other medias, that can challenge your beliefs (with books being the media, that IMHO, have the most impact.) 

 

Totally! The only caveat I'd make is I feel many games have really improved their story-telling abilities. I was extremely impressed with the new God of War, for example. And I think as far as a superhero story goes, the newest Spidey was pretty damn good and could work as a short series if they wanted it to work.

[Bloodporne]

3 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Totally! The only caveat I'd make is I feel many games have really improved their story-telling abilities. I was extremely impressed with the new God of War, for example. And I think as far as a superhero story goes, the newest Spidey was pretty damn good and could work as a short series if they wanted it to work.

Having just played God Of War, I was actually amazed that people find its Hallmark Channel son & dad soap dramatics appealing. 

 

I loved the general world building and environmental storytelling, most definitely, and it was also a beautifully done game overall but the story itself would've been ridiculed in any other medium for being a cloying barrel of cliches in my opinion. 

[SaysWho?]

Just now, Bloodporne said:

Having just played God Of War, I was actually amazed that people find its Hallmark Channel son & dad soap dramatics appealing. 

 

I loved the general world building and environmental storytelling, most definitely, and it was also a beautifully done game overall but the story itself would've been ridiculed in any other medium for being a cloying barrel of cliches in my opinion. 

 

I completely disagree. The world building is great, hell yes, but not only does the story work, it works best because it's a game. And the dialogue is extremely well-written, and again, works best as a game because the little stories during your trips wouldn't translate well to TV.

 

Something like Red Dead really surprised me with its story. Don't really want to argue with people who didn't like the game, but it was a hell of a story top to bottom. Dutch is up there with Huey from MGSV as one of the most fascinating characters of the generation, imo.

[Keyser_Soze]

Celeste has the best story that will make you rethink your beliefs about people with anxiety and other mental disorders.

[AbsolutSurgen]

19 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Totally! The only caveat I'd make is I feel many games have really improved their story-telling abilities. I was extremely impressed with the new God of War, for example. And I think as far as a superhero story goes, the newest Spidey was pretty damn good and could work as a short series if they wanted it to work.

I think that games frequently have good lore, dialog, characters and vignettes. 

 

However, I believe that as overall stories, they are very pulpy, and lack any deeper meaning. Which is fine, I don’t typically want Far Cry to try and have a nuanced discussion of religion in a modern context. 

 

On GoW - I enjoyed the overall story beats, and the conversations between the characters. They were very engaging. 

 

But it the overall plot  wasn’t much to write home about. 

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I think that games frequently have good lore, dialog, characters and vignettes. 

 

However, I believe that as overall stories, they are very pulpy, and lack any deeper meaning. Which is fine, I don’t typically want Far Cry to try and have a nuanced discussion of religion in a modern context. 

 

On GoW - I enjoyed the overall story beats, and the conversations between the characters. They were very engaging. 

 

But it the overall plot  wasn’t much to write home about. 

 

Its plot was simple, but even movies/shows can have a simple plot that's driven as a character study.

 

Games have an advantage of being able to tell stories via the environment. The story of Ish from The Last of Us is a great example of this.

 

Shadow of the Colossus.... actually, all the Team ICO games have great minimalist stories that work because they're games. Your relationship with Trico works due to your interactions with Trico. The adventure of the colossi and saving the girl works because you went up against the colossi. It's not something that would translate as well into a movie or show, but as a game, it does something that other media can't do.

[Bloodporne]

I still haven't played The Last of Us actually. I sometimes wanna grab it at the story but then remember the only time I see it mentioned is for its story. 

[SaysWho?]

23 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I still haven't played The Last of Us actually. I sometimes wanna grab it at the story but then remember the only time I see it mentioned is for its story. 

 

Loved the gameplay and had a lot of fun in all the environments. The minute I got to the first big environment where you have to determine how to stealth your way around, I was hooked. The exploration element is really fucking good, especially for a linear game.

[XxEvil AshxX]

43 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I still haven't played The Last of Us actually. I sometimes wanna grab it at the story but then remember the only time I see it mentioned is for its story. 

 

I enjoyed the game quite a bit but the combat could be really clunky at times. The close quarter combat mechanics were pretty poor, which was kind of important because the infected would bum rush you if you made a noise. Most of the time it was used as punishment for failing a stealth section, but there was a time or two when you were forced to fight waves of them and those were easily the worst parts of the game. I will be 100% happier if they ditch that mechanic for TLoU2.

 

That said, those segments are few and far between, and they're not bad enough to tarnish the rest of the game.

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Loved the gameplay and had a lot of fun in all the environments. The minute I got to the first big environment where you have to determine how to stealth your way around, I was hooked. The exploration element is really fucking good, especially for a linear game.

I'll buy it and just skip all the emotional cutscenes and report that I'm doing so here just to annoy you guys.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Its plot was simple, but even movies/shows can have a simple plot that's driven as a character study.

 

Games have an advantage of being able to tell stories via the environment. The story of Ish from The Last of Us is a great example of this.

 

Shadow of the Colossus.... actually, all the Team ICO games have great minimalist stories that work because they're games. Your relationship with Trico works due to your interactions with Trico. The adventure of the colossi and saving the girl works because you went up against the colossi. It's not something that would translate as well into a movie or show, but as a game, it does something that other media can't do.

A good story has a strong beginning, middle and end.  That is a cohesive whole.  I agree with you that the Last of Us had this -- but I can't think of other games that do this particularly well.  Outside of this, I think most games rise to the level of "poorly written" TV and movies.

 

The environmental stories you were referring to, is what I was trying to convey as "vignettes" in my previous post.

 

I think the Shadow of the Colossus story gives great context to the gameplay -- the puzzle solving of the Colossi was the real shining moment here.  IMHO, The Last Guardian was hot garbage, ruined by the abysmal controls and camera (so I wasn't able to experience any story, as I gave up just a couple of hours in).

 

I don't think games need well written stories to succeed.  I don't think they need deep character development.  And for the most part, I don't think any of them make me reflect on the real world (Assassin's Creed, Bioshock and Mass Effect certainly never have -- even though I enjoyed them immensely as games).  IMHO, it's really hard to put much nuance into the story, when the gameplay loop has you being a mass murderer.

[Paperclyp]

The Last of Us is an example of a game that just from a story perspective, floored me, especially the ending. It’s on par with certainly with a decent Hollywood film and I’d argue quite a bit better than that. 

[SaysWho?]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

A good story has a strong beginning, middle and end.  That is a cohesive whole.  I agree with you that the Last of Us had this -- but I can't think of other games that do this particularly well.  Outside of this, I think most games rise to the level of "poorly written" TV and movies.

 

The environmental stories you were referring to, is what I was trying to convey as "vignettes" in my previous post.

 

I think the Shadow of the Colossus story gives great context to the gameplay -- the puzzle solving of the Colossi was the real shining moment here.  IMHO, The Last Guardian was hot garbage, ruined by the abysmal controls and camera (so I wasn't able to experience any story, as I gave up just a couple of hours in).

 

I don't think games need well written stories to succeed.  I don't think they need deep character development.  And for the most part, I don't think any of them make me reflect on the real world (Assassin's Creed, Bioshock and Mass Effect certainly never have -- even though I enjoyed them immensely as games).  IMHO, it's really hard to put much nuance into the story, when the gameplay loop has you being a mass murderer.

 

I think there are a ton of ways to do a good story, but I think the main point I'm driving at is similar to what you're saying with vignettes. With a video game, the direction and ability to explore and things only a game can do (there's a part at the end of Last Guardian that involves player input that cannot be replicated by any movie or show or book and got me in a way no movie can.  In fact, the entire climax works better because it's a game), the ability to actually have agency over the character, that can elevate the story. A B-Action movie can't match an Uncharted game because being in the moment with well-written characters (story isn't breaking ground, but the characters are freaking great) is a ton more entertaining for me than a Liam Neeson action movie. 

 

Depends on the game since we both agree that a game can have the shittiest story and still be an excellent game.