Remarkableriots Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: What am I missing here? Who is saying we should release violent criminals with no regard? Most people in the prison system are there for nonviolent offenses. #4 in the demands where no human shall be sentenced to death by imprisonment or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 @Bacon @Remarkableriots There is a world of difference between non-rehabitable violent offenders and 95% of the incarcerated population. The miserable American prison system with its limited opportunities for rehabilitation and larger societal issues also effectively increases the probability that a non-violent offender may become a repeat offender or a violent one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Remarkableriots said: #4 in the demands where no human shall be sentenced to death by imprisonment or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole. Even violent offenders can be rehabilitated and the possibility of parole should be based on that determination. However, there are violent offenders who simply are beyond rehabilitation and they should not be paroled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Remarkableriots said: #4 in the demands where no human shall be sentenced to death by imprisonment or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole. Most people can be rehabilitated, so there are extremely few cases were life without parole is an acceptable sentence. Our prison system is terrible and doesn't do justice to those incarcerated. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misfit410 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I'm for prison labor but it does seem right there should be incentive for them to do so, perhaps a decreased sentence and a bit of pay for the work, and that being their choice to participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Even violent offenders can be rehabilitated and the possibility of parole should be based on that determination. However, there are violent offenders who simply are beyond rehabilitation and they should not be paroled. This is supposed to be what prison is about. A combination of punishment and rehabilitation. The United States focuses much more on the former. But even violent criminals should be given the opportunity to rehabilitate and be released back into society. If they can't then they can stay in prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 25 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Even violent offenders can be rehabilitated and the possibility of parole should be based on that determination. However, there are violent offenders who simply are beyond rehabilitation and they should not be paroled. 25 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Most people can be rehabilitated, so there are extremely few cases were life without parole is an acceptable sentence. Our prison system is terrible and doesn't do justice to those incarcerated. Period. And you don't need to sentence people to life without parole. Let the parole board handle it. For the handful that are truly irredeemable, they're far less likely to slip through the cracks if there isn't pressure to parole people to relieve prison overcrowding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyle5150 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 48 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said: This is supposed to be what prison is about. A combination of punishment and rehabilitation. The United States focuses much more on the former. But even violent criminals should be given the opportunity to rehabilitate and be released back into society. If they can't then they can stay in prison. I think prison should be 100% about rehabilitation. Saying that we can't rehabilitate everyone, is merely a problem based in our own ignorance of the human brain, and will one day be reconciled (so long as we don't kill ourselves first). The problem that we have is that we don't understand that if we were born with the genes and life experiences of any of these "criminals", then we would behave exactly as they did. We need to study the shit out of the brain so as to help identify the areas that we can change for the betterment of our societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Even if someone is 100% rehabilitated that doesn't mean the people they have negatively impacted want them to be free. I know my grandma would have preferred to never see that guy ever again. Same with my grandma's niece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bacon said: Even if someone is 100% rehabilitated that doesn't mean the people they have negatively impacted want them to be free. I know my grandma would have preferred to never see that guy ever again. Same with my grandma's niece. Why should the justice system give a shit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Jason said: Why should the justice system give a shit? Why should they go free when their victims still suffer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaladinSolo Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bacon said: Why should they go free when their victims still suffer? Because they don't get to decide their fate, its literally that simple, otherwise no one would ever get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bacon said: Why should they go free when their victims still suffer? Because keeping people who would be productive citizens incarcerated is a big drain on society. The damage they caused is a sunk cost; keeping a "100% rehabilitated" person in jail in won't solve the damage any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 IDK, seems kinda shitty that just because someone is rehabilitated they can continue their life as "normal" while their victims may not be able to. It also sounds like a good way to make more killers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Just now, Bacon said: IDK, seems kinda shitty that just because someone is rehabilitated they can continue their life as "normal" while their victims may not be able to. It also sounds like a good way to make more killers. Why is it shitty? And I don't follow why that makes more killers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 19 minutes ago, Bacon said: Even if someone is 100% rehabilitated that doesn't mean the people they have negatively impacted want them to be free. I know my grandma would have preferred to never see that guy ever again. Same with my grandma's niece. I can completely understand these sentiments as they are only human and natural. I would not expect them to feel otherwise. However, the criminal justice system does not exist to mollify the victims of a crime - it exists to maintain the social order of the state/society. This is why criminal cases involve "The People vs..." and not the direct victims of a crime. In essence, the crime is committed against the entirety of society and the punishment of that crime should reflect the larger interests of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 1 minute ago, legend said: Why is it shitty? And I don't follow why that makes more killers. Victim goes to the store and sees the person who beat them, raped them, or killed their family member. That is shitty. And it would totally make more killers. Sometimes, the only thing that stops the victim from getting revenge is the fact that the criminal will rot in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bacon said: Victim goes to the store and sees the person who beat them, raped them, or killed their family member. That is shitty. And it would totally make more killers. Sometimes, the only thing that stops the victim from getting revenge is the fact that the criminal will rot in jail. Then that person needs to seek help if they would murder the person themselves. I'd also be entirely supportive of the state offering services for victims, or really anyone, if they're struggling with such problems. Seeing someone shouldn't be so shitty to justify the drain on society keeping an otherwise now good person in jail causes. To be clear, our human reaction to be adverse to letting such a person go is understandable. Indeed, I fall victim to any number of irrational bad decisions because my emotions can at times get the better of me just like anyone else and losing a loved one is one of the most emotionally powerful events a person can suffer. But reactions being understandable does not make them acceptable. Under no circumstances would I ever want society to shape its policy around emotional human reactions, including my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I mean, it would be better if the person could not be within 100 miles of the victim. 2 minutes ago, legend said: Then that person needs to seek help if they would murder the person themselves. They are helping themselves. 4 minutes ago, legend said: Seeing someone shouldn't be so shitty to justify the drain on society keeping an otherwise now good person in jail causes. There are ways so they won't be a drain and the victim will never see the other person again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 We would 100% see more people like this guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Plauche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Someone doesn't understand what the justice system is supposed to be about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 18 minutes ago, Bacon said: I mean, it would be better if the person could not be within 100 miles of the victim. They are helping themselves. There are ways so they won't be a drain and the victim will never see the other person again. I don't think a restraining order is unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Someone doesn't understand what the justice system is supposed to be about. I don't. Cuz I'm still waiting to see some justice. Edit: I feel super dumb posting this and I regret it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 Personally, I would also be fine with removing the truly and completely unrehabilitative from existence. Unlike the current death penalty, this would not be a futile exercise in "justice" or "deterrence", but rather based on pure utilitarianism. Come at me, liberals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I do think there are people in jail who don't need to be in jail or should get a chance at getting out. But none of them are in there for violent crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Come at me, liberals! Welcome to the Trump Train, Wade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 28 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Personally, I would also be fine with removing the truly and completely unrehabilitative from existence. Unlike the current death penalty, this would not be a futile exercise in "justice" or "deterrence", but rather based on pure utilitarianism. Come at me, liberals! I'm perfectly okay with the death penalty for some in principle, for the same reason I think war is sometimes necessary. But I have yet to see a method proposed that seems like it would be cheap and robust to corruption, idiocy, and other gross aspects of humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, legend said: robust to corruption, idiocy, and other gross aspects of humanity. Everything is corruptible so just focus on cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsida Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 On 8/21/2018 at 10:03 PM, Jason said: Slavery during incarceration is specifically allowed in the 13th Amendment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 11 hours ago, Bacon said: Everything is corruptible so just focus on cheap. Because all possible government policies are equally bad and good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gangs-of-new-york_us_58b720dbe4b015675cf65b4e https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/preet-bharara-is-not-a-goddamn-hero_us_58c6ed1ee4b022817b2915d2 cops like to label people as gang members to rack up convictions and long sentences. It doesn’t matter if a person was added to a gang database as a baby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Yup, it's super easy just to switch your insurance around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePi Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 12 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Yup, it's super easy just to switch your insurance around. I'm actually really confused as to how insurance companies and banks would use prison labor in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, ThreePi said: I'm actually really confused as to how insurance companies and banks would use prison labor in the first place. For free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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