Movies Kevin Feige Says He Regrets Whitewashing

[SimpleG]

Marvel President Kevin Feige Says He Regrets 'Doctor Strange' Whitewashing

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"We thought we were being so smart, and so cutting-edge,” he says.

I never really had an issue with this. I dont think the MCU ever specifically stated what The Ancient Ones Ethnic back round is. Comics have its fair share of bad stereotypes and this bound to be some slip ups as they try to modernize them. I wouldnt even have minded if they leaned in hard into the trope for a moment as gag but it wouldnt have went over well. 

[Keyser_Soze]

Not really something I thought about especially one that had Benedict Wong in the same movie

[Bloodporne]

Oh I thought that was him without the baseball hat on the right

[number305]

With all the character changes that have been made it makes very little sense to me to have to apologize for any of them.

 

 

[Kal-El814]

46 minutes ago, number305 said:

With all the character changes that have been made it makes very little sense to me to have to apologize for any of them.

 

Whitewashing is always bad.

[Brick]

5 hours ago, SimpleG said:

I dont think the MCU ever specifically stated what The Ancient Ones Ethnic back round is.

 

Mordo states that she's Celtic. 

 

I understand that Marvel didn't want to use such a tired ethnic clichéd stereotype (and potentially piss off China since in the comics The Ancient One is Tibetan), but they could have handled it better. Change the character to a woman, yes, but maybe not a White woman, get a woman of colour rather than whitewashing the role. 

[skillzdadirecta]

54 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

Mordo states that she's Celtic. 

 

I understand that Marvel didn't want to use such a tired ethnic clichéd stereotype (and potentially piss off China since in the comics The Ancient One is Tibetan), but they could have handled it better. Change the character to a woman, yes, but maybe not a White woman, get a woman of colour rather than whitewashing the role. 

 

Agreed. I think it worked better than it should have... Swinton was great as The Ancient One, but the impulse to change her was the same one that led to them casting Ben Kingsley as "The Mandarin" even though they had the foresight to not make him the ACTUAL Mandarin. A lot of this was done in order to not piss off China.

 

Warner Bros whitewashed R'as Al Ghul TWICE. In the Nolan Batman movies AND on Arrow. R'as is Asian as well (Chinese) I believe in the comics. Not British or Australian. So interesting how afraid these companies are at pissing off China.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

Whitewashing is always bad.

 

But it's basically guaranteed that they would have gotten grief for doing a racist caricature if they'd stuck with the comics-accurate version of the character.

[Fizzzzle]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

But it's basically guaranteed that they would have gotten grief for doing a racist caricature if they'd stuck with the comics-accurate version of the character.

Yeah, they have to thread that needle pretty tight when it comes to a lot of the Asian or Asian-inspired characters. I don't envy the task, they're going to piss some people off no matter what they do. They've done pretty well so far

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

But it's basically guaranteed that they would have gotten grief for doing a racist caricature if they'd stuck with the comics-accurate version of the character.

Is it though? I think it depends on how they would have done it. They're gonna get grief no matter WHAT they do... they know that. I think pissing off China is what they were more concerned with. Not what the mob on the internet, woke or not, says. The Ancient One is from Tibet... don't think that would have played too well in Today's China. They're FINALLY doing The Mandarin in Shang Chi so they've seemed to figure it out.

[number305]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Whitewashing is always bad.

 

Sorry but that is BS.  Intent and storytelling are way more important.  There are many good reasons to use different actors in different roles.  To single out one race and say you can never substitute this one race into roles is absurd.  

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

20 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Agreed. I think it worked better than it should have... Swinton was great as The Ancient One, but the impulse to change her was the same one that led to them casting Ben Kingsley as "The Mandarin" even though they had the foresight to not make him the ACTUAL Mandarin. A lot of this was done in order to not piss off China.

 

Warner Bros whitewashed R'as Al Ghul TWICE. In the Nolan Batman movies AND on Arrow. R'as is Asian as well (Chinese) I believe in the comics. Not British or Australian. So interesting how afraid these companies are at pissing off China.

Kingsley played Gandhi too. He’s got mad range. 

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, number305 said:

 

Sorry but that is BS.  Intent and storytelling are way more important.  There are many good reasons to use different actors in different roles.  To single out one race and say you can never substitute this one race into roles is absurd.  

Yeah but what you described isn't Whitewashing. Whitewashing is when a character's race is changed to a white character because the studio wants to appeal to a "broader audience" (a white one). This was an actual practice in Hollywood. I don't know if you've ever heard the term "Will it play in Peoria?" That was studio speak for "Will White people go see this?" 

 

I can tell you a story a friend of mine told me once. Years ago he was working on a show that took place in New Orleans post Katrina. In the background of a pivotal scene, there were a bunch of residents of the neighborhood the show took place in that in real life, was 90% black. When one of the showrunners watched the footage from the shoot, he ordered them to reshoot the scene with more White People to "make it a neighborhood that people will care about." a direct quote  THAT is Whitewashing.

 

Incidentally, it was this incident and a couple of others that led to this friend quitting the screenwriting business entirely and going back to school to get his Law degree. He's a Law Professor and activist dealing with Juvenile Justice and racial disparities in the legal system now. THAT is how pervasive racism is in "woke" Hollywood.

[number305]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Yeah but what you described isn't Whitewashing. Whitewashing is when a character's race is changed to a white character because the studio wants to appeal to a "broader audience" (a white one). This was an actual practice in Hollywood. I don't know if you've ever heard the term "Will it play in Peoria?" That was studio speak for "Will White people go see this?" 

 

I can tell you a story a friend of mine told me once. Years ago he was working on a show that took place in New Orleans post Katrina. In the background of a pivotal scene, there were a bunch of residents of the neighborhood the show took place in that in real life, was 90% black. When one of the showrunners watched the footage from the shoot, he ordered them to reshoot the scene with more White People to "make it a neighborhood that people will care about." a direct quote  THAT is Whitewashing.

 

Incidentally, it was this incident and a couple of others that led to this friend quitting the screenwriting business entirely and going back to school to get his Law degree. He's a Law Professor and activist dealing with Juvenile Justice and racial disparities in the legal system now. THAT is how pervasive racism is in "woke" Hollywood.

 

I'm against "whitewashing".  Whitewashing is bad.  What I called BS was his comment - because this is not a case of whitewashing and to throw the term around is a disservice to all.  

[Ghost_MH]

I love Benedict Cumberbatch and he's been amazing as Dr Strange, but I think the mistake here was casting him as Dr Strange. @Jason is right. Marvel gets grief no matter what. You have as character that is a racist caricature with a white savior that comes in, resolves the Asian guy's failures, and replaces him as an even greater sorcerer supreme; nay, the greatest sorcerer supreme. Everything that Marvel was skittish about here goes away if they just cast Dr Strange as like Asian American.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, number305 said:

 

I'm against "whitewashing".  Whitewashing is bad.  What I called BS was his comment - because this is not a case of whitewashing and to throw the term around is a disservice to all.  

You're saying Fiege saying that the Ancient One being changed to a white woman wasn't white washing? Why wasn't it? The guy who actually made the decision to do it  is saying it was a case of whitewashing... unprompted too. He didn't have to disclose that. You even said that intent is part of it and clearly they changed that character more for reasons that had NOTHING to do with the story. It was a political and business decision... THAT'S IT. He would know better than anyone here why they did it and he's owning up to it. The fact that it actually worked  has nothing to do with it. Making the Ancient One an immortal female Celt rather than an immortal male Tibetan had little impact on the story and like I said, Swinton was actually good in the role but it was still done to not offend China, one of the biggest markets for the film. Remember, Mordo was race swapped too making him a less stereotypical "Evil Eastern European Baron" and changing him to a modern African American (or Brit.. not sure what Mordo's nationality is in the film)

 

Feige knows why these decisions were made... he made them. The fact that he's calling himself out should be met with applause... not derision. In my humble opinion.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

I love Benedict Cumberbatch and he's been amazing as Dr Strange, but I think the mistake here was casting him as Dr Strange. @Jason is right. Marvel gets grief no matter what. You have as character that is a racist caricature with a white savior that comes in, resolves the Asian guy's failures, and replaces him as an even greater sorcerer supreme; nay, the greatest sorcerer supreme. Everything that Marvel was skittish about here goes away if they just cast Dr Strange as like Asian American.

I think Strange works as ANY nationality particularly if you made him Indian/Pakistani or Persian. I dont; think Marvel made a mistake casting Strange as a white man. Nobody is complaining or screaming about it at all. But they COULD have made him something else with little impact to the actual character. It's why I think making Superman black is a mistake unless you're just creating a COMPLETELY new Superman. Having him be a black farm boy from Kansas of all places will change the character significantly if you're being honest and if THAT'S the case... just make a new character. Icon is RIGHT THERE. There's your Black Superman RIGHT THERE. Make THAT movie. Don't make "Black Superman".

[Brick]

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Agreed. I think it worked better than it should have... Swinton was great as The Ancient One, but the impulse to change her was the same one that led to them casting Ben Kingsley as "The Mandarin" even though they had the foresight to not make him the ACTUAL Mandarin. A lot of this was done in order to not piss off China.

 

Warner Bros whitewashed R'as Al Ghul TWICE. In the Nolan Batman movies AND on Arrow. R'as is Asian as well (Chinese) I believe in the comics. Not British or Australian. So interesting how afraid these companies are at pissing off China.

 

Ra's is Arabic. His name translates as "head of the demon". I get Nolan wanted it to be a twist, i.e. "surprise Liam Neeson is the bad guy", but yeah it's whitewashing. Unfortunately he whitewashed Bane as well who is supposed to be Hispanic. The thing WB was afraid of pissing China off with in The Dark Knight was Lau having control of the police in Hong Kong, so they never even released The Dark Knight in China. 

[skillzdadirecta]

9 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

Ra's is Arabic. His name translates as "head of the demon". I get Nolan wanted it to be a twist, i.e. "surprise Liam Neeson is the bad guy", but yeah it's whitewashing. Unfortunately he whitewashed Bane as well who is supposed to be Hispanic. The thing WB was afraid of pissing China off with in The Dark Knight was Lau having control of the police in Hong Kong, so they never even released The Dark Knight in China. 

Ra's NAME Is arabic... the character himself is Asian. At least according Birth of the Demon, the current canon origin of Ra's.

 

Ra's al Ghul - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

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As told in Birth of the Demon, Ra's al Ghul (known only as The Physician prior to adopting the moniker) was born over 600 years before his first appearance in Batman comics, to a tribe of Chinese nomads settling in the desert in eastern North Africa, near a city governed by a Sultan. Developing an interest in the sciences at an early age, Ra's abandoned his tribe to live in the city, where he pursued life as a researcher. He subsequently became a physician and married a woman named Sora.

 

I assumed he was arab too until I looked that up and remembered Birth of the Demon (hadn't read that in YEARS). But yeah Ra's was originally created as part of the whole "Yellow Peril" phase in American fiction in the late 60's and 70's and was basically DC'S answer to Fu Manchu. Marvel was already using Fu Manchu as a character in their comics and he was originally the father of Shang Chi. That has since been retconned. Never the less, Ra's is definitely Asian of Chinese descent. 

 

I forgot that Bane was whitewashed as well... Bane is at least bi-racial as his father is a brit named King Snake.

[Ghost_MH]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I think Strange works as ANY nationality particularly if you made him Indian/Pakistani or Persian. I dont; think Marvel made a mistake casting Strange as a white man. Nobody is complaining or screaming about it at all. But they COULD have made him something else with little impact to the actual character. It's why I think making Superman black is a mistake unless you're just creating a COMPLETELY new Superman. Having him be a black farm boy from Kansas of all places will change the character significantly if you're being honest and if THAT'S the case... just make a new character. Icon is RIGHT THERE. There's your Black Superman RIGHT THERE. Make THAT movie. Don't make "Black Superman".

 

Yeah, Strange could be any nationality. I think Feige's original worries were about getting into all the troublesome tropes of Dr Strange. It's literally the amazing, white savior that learns from and then surpasses the magical Asian. It's not very different than the issues they were worried about dealing with in regards to Iron Fist...and which they utterly failed to deal with.

 

All the casting here worried out great, but this was absolutely white washing. To avoid the white savior AND the magical Asian trope, they just decided to recast the magical Asian as a white women to sidestep the white savior AND magical Asian tropes. I get it and I also completely understand why he made the choice he did. It makes sense if he's trying to be the most faithful he can be too the source material without pissing off China or treading down tired, racist tropes. I just think swapping their nationalities would have been a totally easy fix. I say that in spite of really loving both actors for their roles. They're both incredible actors. They aren't the problem.

[Brick]

Weird I had never seen that before, especially when everything about his appearance, especially his clothing screams Middle Eastern. Was that a retcon? I see the book came out in the 90s, so it's not like they changed him from Middle Eastern for a post-9/11 world to not have an Arabic leader of a terrorist organisation, and yet another Brown skinned bad guy. 

 

The pronunciation of his name is weird too since in Arabic it is indeed supposed to be "Rawz", but his creator Dennis O'Neil says it's pronounced as "Raysh" for some reason. 

 

His only appearance where he looked more Eastern Asian was in the Arkham games. 

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, number305 said:

I'm against "whitewashing".  Whitewashing is bad.  What I called BS was his comment - because this is not a case of whitewashing and to throw the term around is a disservice to all.  

 

I don't know what to say, casting a white women as The Ancient One is literal whitewashing.

 

2 hours ago, number305 said:

 

Sorry but that is BS.  Intent and storytelling are way more important.  There are many good reasons to use different actors in different roles.  To single out one race and say you can never substitute this one race into roles is absurd.  

 

Of course intent and storytelling are important, but representation matters as well. At that point the only Asian actors with speaking parts in MCU movies aside from Benedict Wong in that movie had been, what... Claudia Kim? It's a short list, and it was lousy casting. Tilda Swinton is rad, it's not about her.

 

49 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I think Strange works as ANY nationality particularly if you made him Indian/Pakistani or Persian. I dont; think Marvel made a mistake casting Strange as a white man. Nobody is complaining or screaming about it at all. But they COULD have made him something else with little impact to the actual character. It's why I think making Superman black is a mistake unless you're just creating a COMPLETELY new Superman. Having him be a black farm boy from Kansas of all places will change the character significantly if you're being honest and if THAT'S the case... just make a new character. Icon is RIGHT THERE. There's your Black Superman RIGHT THERE. Make THAT movie. Don't make "Black Superman".

 

I kinda go back and forth on this. I think in movies, you're probably right, especially if it's a character that we haven't seen on screen before. There have been enough Superman movies where I personally think it's fine if someone wanted to make a black Superman movie now. Same with comics, if someone wanted to do the black equivalent of Red Son, that could be interesting.

 

But if they cast a black dude as Daredevil or something the first time he was in a movie... I get why people would want to see the character represented the way they're used to the first time he hit the screen.

 

2 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

Yeah, Strange could be any nationality. I think Feige's original worries were about getting into all the troublesome tropes of Dr Strange. It's literally the amazing, white savior that learns from and then surpasses the magical Asian. It's not very different than the issues they were worried about dealing with in regards to Iron Fist...and which they utterly failed to deal with.

 

All the casting here worried out great, but this was absolutely white washing. To avoid the white savior AND the magical Asian trope, they just decided to recast the magical Asian as a white women to sidestep the white savior AND magical Asian tropes. I get it and I also completely understand why he made the choice he did. It makes sense if he's trying to be the most faithful he can be too the source material without pissing off China or treading down tired, racist tropes. I just think swapping their nationalities would have been a totally easy fix. I say that in spite of really loving both actors for their roles. They're both incredible actors. They aren't the problem.

 

This is the thing, exactly right on the money.

[skillzdadirecta]

My issue with Superman is that if you make him black, fundamental aspects of his character would have to change. Alien raised in middle american farmland by decent hardworking americans takes on a whole different meaning if that alien looks black. Then you have an entirely different character. Clark Kent's midwestern upbringing is as much a part of his character as his powers are. You throw race into that mix and it's entirely different character. You ignore that then what's the point. Its why Falcon and Winter Soldier directly tackling the implications of a Black Captain America was so refreshing. Was how they tackled perfect? No. But they addressed it which for a Disney show is saying A LOT. 

 

If you make Superman black then you'd have to change him to the point where he's basically another character and if that's the case... MAKE ANOTHER CHARACTER. Like what if you did a Superman movie where Clark Kent dies and he's replaced by Val Zod, the Black Superman of Earth 2? How would the public react to their white savior being replaced by a black one? THAT'S how you do that movie. Don't just make Clark Kent black and ignore the racial implications of that. That's what I'm NOT interested in seeing personally. If you're going to make a racial statement then make it.

 

1 hour ago, Brick said:

Weird I had never seen that before, especially when everything about his appearance, especially his clothing screams Middle Eastern. Was that a retcon? I see the book came out in the 90s, so it's not like they changed him from Middle Eastern for a post-9/11 world to not have an Arabic leader of a terrorist organisation, and yet another Brown skinned bad guy. 

 

The pronunciation of his name is weird too since in Arabic it is indeed supposed to be "Rawz", but his creator Dennis O'Neil says it's pronounced as "Raysh" for some reason. 

 

His only appearance where he looked more Eastern Asian was in the Arkham games. 

 

I've heard his name pronounced both ways... and while he is Chinese by heritage, he came of age in Northern Africa so that's why he has so many middle Eastern Influences. 

[SimpleG]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Like what if you did a Superman movie where Clark Kent dies and he's replaced by Val Zod, the Black Superman of Earth 2? How would the public react to their white savior being replaced by a black one? THAT'S how you do that movie. .

 

 

Sold!

When does it the hit theaters? also

[Fizzzzle]

I think they're handling race pretty well these days. Like how they handled Sam Wilson in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Though I worry that in the next movie it'll be like none of that ever mattered, they tackled it in a series they know not as many people will see

[skillzdadirecta]

It's interesting that in a recent Future STate storyline they show Clark Kents descendents in the far future and the are multi-racial even multi-species... which makes perfect sense.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Fizzzzle said:

I think they're handling race pretty well these days. Like how they handled Sam Wilson in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Though I worry that in the next movie it'll be like none of that ever mattered, they tackled it in a series they know not as many people will see

Huh? 

 

‘Falcon and Winter Soldier’ Makes Solid Debut in Nielsen Streaming Rankings

WWW.HOLLYWOODREPORTER.COM

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The Marvel show makes a strong first impression in the weekly Nielsen streaming rankings.

Quote

The Disney+ series starring Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan racked up 495 million minutes of viewing time for the week of March 15-21. That ranks second among original series (behind Netflix’s Ginny & Georgia at 540 million minutes) for the week, and seventh among all programming on Disney+, Amazon’s Prime Video, Hulu and Netflix.

The series also drew a bit more viewing time than Disney+’s previous Marvel show, WandaVision, whose January debut drew 434 million minutes of watch time. The 495 million minutes for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier equates to an audience of about 9.9 million accounts, based on the 50-minute running time of the premiere episode.

 

They were trying to get as many eyes on that show as possible and succeeded for the most part. I don't think they were trying to "bury" the storyline at all. That's an odd take.

[Jason]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I think Strange works as ANY nationality particularly if you made him Indian/Pakistani or Persian. I dont; think Marvel made a mistake casting Strange as a white man. Nobody is complaining or screaming about it at all. But they COULD have made him something else with little impact to the actual character. It's why I think making Superman black is a mistake unless you're just creating a COMPLETELY new Superman. Having him be a black farm boy from Kansas of all places will change the character significantly if you're being honest and if THAT'S the case... just make a new character. Icon is RIGHT THERE. There's your Black Superman RIGHT THERE. Make THAT movie. Don't make "Black Superman".

 

I think the point was just that it avoids any perceptions of Asian-to-white whitewashing by making the Ancient One a white person if you in turn make Strange an Asian person. Just invert the race of the characters so you can avert the Magical Asian tropes. 

[Fizzzzle]

13 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Huh? 

 

‘Falcon and Winter Soldier’ Makes Solid Debut in Nielsen Streaming Rankings

WWW.HOLLYWOODREPORTER.COM

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The Marvel show makes a strong first impression in the weekly Nielsen streaming rankings.

 

They were trying to get as many eyes on that show as possible and succeeded for the most part. I don't think they were trying to "bury" the storyline at all. That's an odd take.

I didn't actually look up numbers, I just assumed it's not going to be as big as the next avengers movie or whatever. I might be wrong.

[Fizzzzle]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

I think the point was just that it avoids any perceptions of Asian-to-white whitewashing by making the Ancient One a white person if you in turn make Strange an Asian person. Just invert the race of the characters so you can avert the Magical Asian tropes. 

You're right, that might have resulted in the minimal amount of pissed off people

[skillzdadirecta]

Except the fanboys would have been pissed if you changed Dr. Strange to an Asian character. They were pissed enough at the Ancient One and Mordo being changed.

[SimpleG]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Except the fanboys would have been pissed if you changed Dr. Strange to an Asian character. They were pissed enough at the Ancient One and Mordo being changed.

I think @Fizzzzle is right though,  the hard core fanboys are the minimal amount. Let be real though, they gonna be pissed no matter what, and they still gonna watch it.

[best3444]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

My issue with Superman is that if you make him black, fundamental aspects of his character would have to change. Alien raised in middle american farmland by decent hardworking americans takes on a whole different meaning if that alien looks black. Then you have an entirely different character. Clark Kent's midwestern upbringing is as much a part of his character as his powers are. You throw race into that mix and it's entirely different character. You ignore that then what's the point. Its why Falcon and Winter Soldier directly tackling the implications of a Black Captain America was so refreshing. Was how they tackled perfect? No. But they addressed it which for a Disney show is saying A LOT. 

 

If you make Superman black then you'd have to change him to the point where he's basically another character and if that's the case... MAKE ANOTHER CHARACTER. Like what if you did a Superman movie where Clark Kent dies and he's replaced by Val Zod, the Black Superman of Earth 2? How would the public react to their white savior being replaced by a black one? THAT'S how you do that movie. Don't just make Clark Kent black and ignore the racial implications of that. That's what I'm NOT interested in seeing personally. If you're going to make a racial statement then make it.

 

So fucking dead on.

[Remarkableriots]

On 5/21/2021 at 1:45 PM, skillzdadirecta said:

My issue with Superman is that if you make him black, fundamental aspects of his character would have to change. Alien raised in middle american farmland by decent hardworking americans takes on a whole different meaning if that alien looks black. Then you have an entirely different character. Clark Kent's midwestern upbringing is as much a part of his character as his powers are. You throw race into that mix and it's entirely different character. You ignore that then what's the point. Its why Falcon and Winter Soldier directly tackling the implications of a Black Captain America was so refreshing. Was how they tackled perfect? No. But they addressed it which for a Disney show is saying A LOT. 

 

If you make Superman black then you'd have to change him to the point where he's basically another character and if that's the case... MAKE ANOTHER CHARACTER. Like what if you did a Superman movie where Clark Kent dies and he's replaced by Val Zod, the Black Superman of Earth 2? How would the public react to their white savior being replaced by a black one? THAT'S how you do that movie. Don't just make Clark Kent black and ignore the racial implications of that. That's what I'm NOT interested in seeing personally. If you're going to make a racial statement then make it.

 

 

I've heard his name pronounced both ways... and while he is Chinese by heritage, he came of age in Northern Africa so that's why he has so many middle Eastern Influences. 

 

[best3444]

13 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

 

 

Not bad lol.