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Pokémon OT - Gotta Catch 'Em All

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Xbob42

Xbob42

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Just now, johnny said:

it’s a pain in the ass to try and be elite in competitive with the IV training and stuff. 

It is so exhausting. And none of it is about "being a better trainer." For one, I'm playing a fuckin' video game, not raising a real animal, and two, it's well known that many people just hack in their perfect Pokemon via many different means.

 

I'm sure to people who value that part of the game that might be fun and rewarding, but for me it's so much work resulting in so little to show for it. I'm doing the same exact battles but now I have to fuss about my stats and use optimal meta movesets or create my own movesets that I hope can outplay the meta, which is going to be rough given how many people math the hell out of the entire game.

 

So I'm doing the same battles but now I get hundreds of hours of prep time. They've tried their best to make EV training and such way easier, but at some point just let me edit the stats myself by putting my Pokemon into the PC at the Pokemon Center and editing their .ini file!

 

But then it all comes back to the core combat just not being as good as several other turn-based games. How good would the competitive scene be if we got an entirely revamped combat system that tried to innovate instead of almost 3 decades of stagnation?

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GameDadGrant

GameDadGrant

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8 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I know I've wounded you on a deeply personal level for not investing hundreds of hours into competitive Pokemon, as you seem to think "the rest of us" do, but the reality is that the competitive scene is tiny (given how enormous the franchise is) for a reason. I want the baseline series to be better. If it's only meant to be a competitive game, then sell it as that and get rid of the campaign.

 

On the other hand, people are saying this is the best game in the franchise for years and somehow I doubt they're doing many competitive battles... Hm. I wonder why?

 

You apparently misunderstood my post. 

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johnny

johnny

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27 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

It is so exhausting. And none of it is about "being a better trainer." For one, I'm playing a fuckin' video game, not raising a real animal, and two, it's well known that many people just hack in their perfect Pokemon via many different means.

 

I'm sure to people who value that part of the game that might be fun and rewarding, but for me it's so much work resulting in so little to show for it. I'm doing the same exact battles but now I have to fuss about my stats and use optimal meta movesets or create my own movesets that I hope can outplay the meta, which is going to be rough given how many people math the hell out of the entire game.

 

So I'm doing the same battles but now I get hundreds of hours of prep time. They've tried their best to make EV training and such way easier, but at some point just let me edit the stats myself by putting my Pokemon into the PC at the Pokemon Center and editing their .ini file!

 

But then it all comes back to the core combat just not being as good as several other turn-based games. How good would the competitive scene be if we got an entirely revamped combat system that tried to innovate instead of almost 3 decades of stagnation?

people are saying the combat system is better in legends 

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Xbob42

Xbob42

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Just now, best3444 said:

@Xbob42 I'm being serious here. What games do you actually like and think are well done?

Well liking a game and the game being well done are two different things, but as for games that meet both criteria for me? I don't have a definitive list but going by memory (and some scrolling through my Steam library):

 

Most Monster Hunter games, Final Fantasy XI and XIV, FF6, God of War, Life is Strange, Outer Wilds, Tales of Arise, Deathloop, Breath of the Wild, the Bravely Default games to an extent, Psychonauts 1 and 2, the Fatal Frame games, the Resident Evil series, Baba is You, Until Dawn, Dragon Quest XI, Inscryption, Spelunky 1 anda 2, the Sam & Max games, Super Monkey Ball, Donut County, Disco Elysium, Grandia 1 and 2, the Ys series, Lost in Vivo, the Dread X Collections are usually pretty good, Phantasy Star Online, the Persona series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, Tetris 99 (less of a fan of normal Tetris, 99 somehow makes it super fun), Crosscode, Omori, Loop Hero, the mainline Mario games, Metroid Dread, Hollow Knight, the Dead Space series, Axiom Verge, Katamari Damacy, the Doom series, Control, the Dark Souls series, most of the Batman games, Hunt Showdown, Rogue Legacy, Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2, Return of the Obra Dinn, the Titanfall series, Okami (though I like it less than most Okami fans), the Dishonored series, La Mulana, Fez, Ori 1 and 2, What Remains of Edith Finch, Xanadu Next, the Zero Escape series in its entirety, Super Mario RPG, Kentucky Route Zero, the Shantae series, the Witcher series, Darkest Dungeon, Steamworld Dig 1 and 2, Slay the Spire, Hypnospace Outlaw, Stardew Valley/Harvest Moon, Prey, and I think that's all my brain can remember off the top of my head, why?

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Xbob42

Xbob42

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Well aside from being the first AAA game I've ever seen that requires beer goggles, and a questionably long tutorial, it has been pretty fun so far! Basic but fun. Still far too early to say much more than they seem to have tried a lot of interesting things here. (The previous sentence was written when I had planned a two-sentence reply, ignore it.) The mix of trying to sneak up to catch a Pokemon, catching them or failing and then battling them (or running away) is great. It makes the gameplay feel much more varied, and since you're actively trying to catch them by throwing a ball (turn on motion controls like a fucking ADULT if you want the throwing to feel better, stick aiming is for chumps) which you'll need to adjust a bit depending on distance, it makes going in and out of the combat a lot more varied and enjoyable.

 

Also, the simple act of being able to run around in combat (including just saying fuck it and walking away and abandoning the battle, which counts the same as choosing the "run" option) makes the battles feel a lot less rigid, but they also appear to have added a strong/agile version of some attacks that you can switch between with R/L, so you'll have the base move, then you can swap it to strong or agile. I'm still very early and have spent a lot of time wandering around not finishing all the tutorials, so the differences in these moves hasn't even been explained to me yet, and not every move seems to have different styles, but this seems like a much needed extra bit of depth.


You can run inbetween the Pokemon to get hit by their moves, it only knocks you down but it's still funny. Outside of combat, wild Pokemon can and will try to attack you, though. The people in this weird pseudo ancient Japan setting are terrified of Pokemon, and it's obvious why: they're mean little fucks. Your trainer has CoD-style health. No actual bar, but the screen will get Pokeblood around the edges if you get hit once, and you'll black out and return to town if you get hit again before your health regen kicks in. Dunno if you lose money, but based on these charms I can buy, you definitely lose items in your field satchel, so crafting materials, Pokeballs, etc, if you black out. Very cool change.

 

Also, since you can spend so long in the wild, and since there's Pokemon of varying levels, I found myself having Pokemon faint left and right as I chained battles together and tried to take on really strong stuff. Found an Alpha Rapidash (which was huge and had glowing fiery red eyes and had a really loud cry from a mile away) but it was level 40 and one-shot my stuff, which is where I found out about being able to escape from battle just by walking away.

 

I tried to whittle down some level 20 Pokemon with my level 9s, and they kept getting one-shot, eventually I got it into the red but failed to catch it. All my Pokemon fainted, but I didn't black out, instead, I just couldn't fight anymore. It also meant my exploration options became limited, because aside from things like plants, you need to throw a Pokeball containing a (conscious) Pokemon at a gathering point such as a tree full of berries, ore, etc to gather it. I had none so I couldn't gather, meaning it made the most sense for me to carefully make my way back to camp to rest, as I hadn't purchased any revives at this point.


Funnily enough, I saw more of the same level 20 Pokemon on the way back and was able to sneak catch them in a single try, which was definitely cool. Of course, you can't switch Pokemon in your party on the fly, gotta head either to town or to camp to do that, so it didn't exactly help me make it back.

 

All the elements of a proper Pokemon game in terms of stats seem to be here, which is one thing I was worried about. I always worry about getting an ultra simplified version. While I'm not a huge fan of EVs/IVs, etc, I do like natures and having a full list of every stat, and it all appears to be here. It also appears that you can change a Pokemon's moves on the fly without going to a move deleter/teacher/etc. That's a huge change I am 100% in favor of, unless it was in BD/SP, which I didn't play.


The tone seems lighthearted as usual, but also notably darker than most Pokemon games. The concept of death has been mentioned several times, which is usually relegated to ghost-related areas in most Pokemon games, or that one ghost girl meme. But the game starts with someone asking if you're still alive, and not so much later you're told you may have to be left to fend for yourself or die in the wild, which is hardly Witcher 3 levels of darkness or anything, but it's nice that the tone seems a little more serious. Also, your character is 15ish (according to someone trying to guess your age) instead of 10/11, which is a cosmetic but nice change of pace.

 

Customization seems better than other games in the series so far. You still choose from 1 of 8 generic portraits, but quickly get access to new clothes and hairstyles and everything, and you can even preview your hairstyle before choosing it, unlock some piece of shit games out there!

 

The game opens up a dodge roll after a while for avoiding wild Pokemon attacks, but I'd really like a jump, there's a lot of areas where you're awkwardly trying to walk up a small but steep piece of terrain and if you hit a "stop" for too long you slide back down, often with no discernible intended route, and you can get up there, as there'll often be things to gather. If it's an ore vein you can just toss up a Pokeball to have your Bidoof or whatever collect it (which I very much enjoy) but if it's something you have to grab (Unless your Pokemon can collect the plants you can collect, haven't checked) then it's Skyrimming it, but without a jump.

 

One minor disappointment for me is that so far it doesn't seem to be proper open world. You go to town and then choose a region to visit and you just kind of warp there. Hoping that's not the case forever, but the areas you explore are still quite large. I just like the feeling of travel and exploration and learning the lay of the land.

 

Oh! Also, there's crafting now, fuckin' crafting. It seems basic and easy. An Apricorn and some Shitrock makes a Pokeball, I guess. A Medicinal Leek and I think an Oran Berry make a potion, and that's all I've learned as of now. You can craft multiple of the same item at once and there's no obnoxious animations or anything, it's very quick. Seems good!

 

And finally, either they're retconning how Pokeballs work or I just haven't been keeping up, but right from the start they're talking about some bullshit about how Pokemon have "the ability to shrink to miniscule size" and thus I guess the Pokeballs (which in the setting of this game have only VERY recently been invented and everyone sucks at using them) force that power to activate. I always thought Pokeballs converted Pokemon to energy or something, this is the first I'm hearing of them just being able to fuckin' shrink like a reverse shrinky dink. Whatever, I honestly love that they're getting into it. Why does my dumb Pokeball made out of rock and acorns work? Well, we won't tell you that but here's why Pokemon can fit in them, haha. I'll take this over the vagueness and "clean" explanations in most Pokemon games.

 

I'll post more once my fingers stop aching from typing.

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Brick

Brick

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I'm relieved and glad to hear you're enjoying it so far @Xbob42. I knew about being able to move while in battle, but not that you could walk between them and get hit lol. I'm assuming the attacks go right through you when knocking you down, otherwise you'd be able to block things like beam attacks from hitting your Pokémon.

 

It makes me think how a new system for battles could work in the next generation though. Yeah we'd all love real time combat and make our battles look like the ones from the anime, but with 800 different creatures maybe that is too much at this point, and maybe something the evolves the turn based, but gives more control could work. Maybe something like Xenoblade where you can control your Pokémon, and move it around the opponent, and all your moves are on a cooldown after you use them. Let's say you have a Squirtle, and you can use a ranged move like Water Gun , but then to use something like Bite you actually have to move in and get close to the opponent to use it, but that puts you at risk of them using one of their physical attacks on you like Fury Swipes or something. Not sure how cooldowns would work. Each move has its own timer, with more powerful moves having longer cooldowns? Should the Speed stat affect cooldowns, or the literal speed of the Pokémon you're controlling while moving around, make faster Pokémon physically able to avoid attacks (should a dodge mechanic be in). There's a lot of ways they could improve things, and I do hope they take some of the ideas from this game and bring them forward into the next generation and refine them. 

 

I've heard speculation that Creatures Inc./The Pokémon Company basically make Game Freak make a new generation every 3-4 years so they can get new creature designs out there, and merchandise it all to rake in the cash, therefore never really getting enough time to really make big changes to the formula. Not sure if that's true, but I hope not. I don't know why Nintendo hasn't just outright bought Game Freak/The Pokémon Company/Creatures Inc. like Microsoft and Sony are doing with developers and publishers lately, that way they can give the time, talent, and money to the development team to truly take the next generation to a whole new level. Pokémon needs its Breath of the Wild moment, and Legends Arceus seems to almost be that, but not quite right. I also don't get why this game released so soon after the D/P remakes. Could have given a few more months to space things out, and get some extra development time. I thought for sure it would get delayed when they first announced it was releasing in January. 

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Xbob42

Xbob42

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Yeah I was specifically trying to see if I could block attacks, sadly they do just go through you. Having limited trainer health in battle to actively block attacks and save your Pokemon (and maybe having that build bonding points or whatever if this game has a system like that) would be super neat.


Another thing, if you gather a bunch of wild Pokemon in one spot, or just get chased by a bunch/they're already gathered, they'll all fight you at once. Not sure what the limit is, but I've fought 4 at once a few times now. I'm wondering if there's a way to bring out more than one Pokemon to fight back, because me having one turn and then 4 enemies each beating my buttcheeks was a bit rough.

 

There's so many places they could take this formula, I really like it so far.

 

Oh and what do you know, those strength and agile versions of attacks can affect the turn order. Both use more PP than normal, strength hits harder and delays your next turn, while agile is weaker but your next turn comes faster. Meaning you can get multiple turns in a row. But you can also get multiple turns (by which I mean probably 2 at most) in a row by massively outspeeding your opponent, even without using agile or strength move variations. This is an excellent change!

 

And I'm also angry at how much of my enjoyment might just be because it's not normal Pokemon. Of course, I've played many spin-off games and didn't enjoy most of them so it's definitely more than that.

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best3444

best3444

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11 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Well liking a game and the game being well done are two different things, but as for games that meet both criteria for me? I don't have a definitive list but going by memory (and some scrolling through my Steam library):

 

Most Monster Hunter games, Final Fantasy XI and XIV, FF6, God of War, Life is Strange, Outer Wilds, Tales of Arise, Deathloop, Breath of the Wild, the Bravely Default games to an extent, Psychonauts 1 and 2, the Fatal Frame games, the Resident Evil series, Baba is You, Until Dawn, Dragon Quest XI, Inscryption, Spelunky 1 anda 2, the Sam & Max games, Super Monkey Ball, Donut County, Disco Elysium, Grandia 1 and 2, the Ys series, Lost in Vivo, the Dread X Collections are usually pretty good, Phantasy Star Online, the Persona series, the Shin Megami Tensei series, Tetris 99 (less of a fan of normal Tetris, 99 somehow makes it super fun), Crosscode, Omori, Loop Hero, the mainline Mario games, Metroid Dread, Hollow Knight, the Dead Space series, Axiom Verge, Katamari Damacy, the Doom series, Control, the Dark Souls series, most of the Batman games, Hunt Showdown, Rogue Legacy, Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2, Return of the Obra Dinn, the Titanfall series, Okami (though I like it less than most Okami fans), the Dishonored series, La Mulana, Fez, Ori 1 and 2, What Remains of Edith Finch, Xanadu Next, the Zero Escape series in its entirety, Super Mario RPG, Kentucky Route Zero, the Shantae series, the Witcher series, Darkest Dungeon, Steamworld Dig 1 and 2, Slay the Spire, Hypnospace Outlaw, Stardew Valley/Harvest Moon, Prey, and I think that's all my brain can remember off the top of my head, why?

 

I'll have to read all of this later and respond. I'm hoping you are using a laptop or computer to write your novels in each post. 

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stepee

stepee

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Yeah I only got to play a couple hours before I had to sleep but it’s a very promising start. I didn’t realize part of the story was, spoiler for 10 seconds into the game but this is something Nintendo embargoed,

you are from the future and get sent back to the past

, which instantly made that part more interesting to me. But we will see where they go with that.

 

I didn’t have time yet to read bob’s impressions but I’m assuming he covered all the positive gameplay stuff you find early on. Everything is so much quicker and it respects your time a lot more, that’s probably the tldr of it. Oh and it just feels more about the Pokémon, the gameplay loop seems built around you learning them more intimately, and actually seems to pin the focus more back on catching them all.
 

But yeah you can’t talk about it without at least mentioning that the “open world” is unfortunately pretty ugly. The skybox can be a saving grace sometimes but the lod is really bad and they are doing something with the textures and im not sure what it is, but it looks off. Like they tried to do a painterly look but it’s too low res to show through. The water seems to have some intentional “worlds worst ssr” thing going on to try to hide how it looks? The whole thing kind of looks strange.

 

And I really liked how Sword and Shield looked still, but it’s just stretched too thin now and too obvious now that it’s less towns and the art style is doing less work. On the plus side, the people, the town, and most importantly, the pokémon themselves look great. But my goodness, they need to hire tech staff and be given a Switch 2 platform to  release on.

 

That said I had tons of fun at the beginning and I’m excited to play more, in many ways this is finally Pokémon being more like how I dreamed about back on N64 (after being teased it in Sword/Shield), took a little longer than I expected lol.

 

 

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Xbob42

Xbob42

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30 minutes ago, Biggie said:

@Xbob42yay or nay on this?

 

You get a mount that can actually jump which resolved my one traversal complaint, so yay!

 

21 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

I mean

 

 

 

 

I literally, as in maybe 2 minutes ago, just beat that Alpha Snorlax. It one-shot my entire team but I had a few revives and managed to paralyze it and whittle it down. Only my Luxio was alive when it died (killed itself with a wild charge on another Pokemon) and so got the entire 4,000 exp, boosting it from level 20ish to 25. I wanted to catch it but it was a glorious victory either way, considering all my Pokemon were level 20ish.

 

So glad there's challenges like that available, I love actually having to try in some of these battles.

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