Microsoft Xbox Series X | S OT - Power Your Dreams, update: FTC case unredacted documents leaked, including XSX mid-generation refresh, new gyro/haptic-enabled controller, and next-generation plans for 2028

[XxEvil AshxX]

Microsoft.. you really better bring it. Seriously. I have a sinking feeling that 80% of the games they show will be smaller/cartoony looking titles like Grounded.

 

Halo Infinite and Hellblade 2 better be absolutely jaw-dropping, because if they aren't.....

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

 

Sell Mixer to Facebook gaming, host your show on Youtube Gaming

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, XxEvil AshxX said:

Microsoft.. you really better bring it. Seriously. I have a sinking feeling that 80% of the games they show will be smaller/cartoony looking titles like Grounded.

 

Halo Infinite and Hellblade 2 better be absolutely jaw-dropping, because if they aren't.....

 

They now have 13 studios working under them (essentially equal to Sony's 14 studios) so I'm very excited to see what all that talent has been working on. They snapped up some good studios these last few years.

[XxEvil AshxX]

11 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Sell Mixer to Facebook gaming, host your show on Youtube Gaming

 

To be fair that's the pre-show. The actual games stream with be on everything, including Facebook.

[XxEvil AshxX]

9 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

They now have 13 studios working under them (essentially equal to Sony's 14 studios) so I'm very excited to see what all that talent has been working on. They snapped up some good studios these last few years.

 

Indeed. They have the talent, and some good IP to work with. MS needs that graphical showcase title, though, and it needs to be something other than Halo.

 

I'm hoping for an official Fable announcement, and I really hope it looks amazing. 

[Keyser_Soze]

> Killer Instinct 2

> Fable good reboot

> Perfect Dark is back but in a Sony the Game / Assassin's Creed style adventure game

> Blinx is back?

> Otogi 1 & 2 remaster / backwards compatibility and surprise Otogi 3 announcement

 

[Remarkableriots]

Keyser_Sozed 

[crispy4000]

Quote

Update: Microsoft has provided TrueAchievements with a statement confirming that the removal of the 12-month Xbox Live Gold subscription was not an error.

A Microsoft spokesperson said, "At this time, Xbox has decided to remove the 12 months Xbox Live Gold SKU from the Microsoft online Store. Customers can still sign up for a one month or three month Xbox Live Gold subscription online through the Microsoft Store." Unfortunately, the company did not specify the reason why it has decided to delist the 12-month option.

https://www.trueachievements.com/n42488/xbox-live-gold-12-month-subscription
 

Alright Microsoft, let’s go.  Drop Gold.  Change ‘Games Pass Ultimate’ to ‘Games Pass.’  Stop treating console owners like second class citizens.  
 

A Games Pass price hike is inevitable at some point, but all paywall sins can be forgiven if they strike first.  Now is the time to make Sony and Nintendo look bad.

[XxEvil AshxX]

45 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

https://www.trueachievements.com/n42488/xbox-live-gold-12-month-subscription
 

Alright Microsoft, let’s go.  Drop Gold.  Change ‘Games Pass Ultimate’ to ‘Games Pass.’  Stop treating console owners like second class citizens.  
 

A Games Pass price hike is inevitable at some point, but all paywall sins can be forgiven if they strike first.  Now is the time to make Sony and Nintendo look bad.

 

And lose Games with Gold. If Game Pass becomes the new Xbox Live Gold, then GwG is redundant. You'll lose access to either if your membership lapses anyway.

 

They're not making any new 360 titles back compat so the GwG offerings have been meh for a while. I dont think i would miss them.

[Duderino]

Sounds like Gold could be disappearing in a few months time.

 

Hopefully they do the consumer friendly move and make online play free rather than rolling that paywall into Gamespass.  I could the later happening though as a means to convert more (former) Gold subscribers to Gamespass.

[TomCat]

Secret Sauce     also ps5 has been confirmed not to be fully rdna2.0   No vrs  no mess shaders  

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

Secret Sauce     also ps5 has been confirmed not to be fully rdna2.0   No vrs  no mess shaders  

 

You should start fact checking and substantiating your claims.

 

- Sony didn’t “simply incorporate” an AMD RDNA 2 GPU into the PS5, it helped build it

- PS5 Has VRS, Confirms Lead Activision Artist
 

Mesh shaders we know less about.  Sony's been cagey about what their "Geometry Engine" entails.  But since it has a RDNA 2.0 chip which does do VRS, it'd be more surprising if the PS5 was left out.

[TomCat]

https://twitter.com/KeemaMr/status/1284472463049609216/photo/1

 

Edit lol  I didnt read the whole statement  he didnt confirm no vrs  but he did say its doesnt have ML.  Its not a fully compliant  rdna 2.0 gpu  Its a 1.5 custom Hybrid

 

I dont really do twitta  so how it operates confuses me.  But  this is apparently what happened  Gavin Stevens who did the report on the Velocity Architecture  was having a priviate conversation with a Sony engineer   and he was the one who said that the ps5 doesnt have VRS Mess Shaders and is rdna 1.5  and Gavin Posted the DM for the public to see.  The other sony Engineer was asked to confirm the information but he said he couldnt because of NDA but he confirmed no machine Learning with is an RDNA 2.0 feature

 

[crispy4000]

39 minutes ago, TomCat said:

https://twitter.com/KeemaMr/status/1284472463049609216/photo/1

 

Edit lol  I didnt read the whole statement  he didnt confirm no vrs  but he did say its doesnt have ML.  Its not a fully compliant  rdna 2.0 gpu  Its a 1.5 custom Hybrid

 

 

PS5 uses “a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology,” - Mark Cerny

They're working together with AMD on this, as is Microsoft.   To quote again:

 

Quote

AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech.  For RDNA 2, their goals were, roughly speaking, to reduce power consumption by architecting the GPU to put data where it’s needed, to optimise the GPU for performance, and to add a new, more advanced, feature set. But that feature set is malleable, which is to say we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.

 

So collaboration is formed. If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful, then they can be adopted into RDNA 2 and used broadly, including PC GPUs. If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we’re trying to accomplish, like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about, then they end up being just for us. If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in producing technology in both worlds. It doesn’t mean we simply incorporated a PC part into our console.

 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/ps5-xbox-series-x-specs-vs-gaming-pc

 

[TomCat]

17 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Some Xbox twitter shill vs:

 

“a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology,” - Mark Cerny

They're working together with AMD on RDNA 2 standards, as is Microsoft.  To let the man speak more for himself:

 

 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/ps5-xbox-series-x-specs-vs-gaming-pc

 

 

 

LOL Rosario Leonardi  is not some Xbox twitter shill He is Principal Graphics Engineer at Sony Interactive Europe.  and he is the one saying its not rnda 2.0  but its 1.0 with some 2.0 features added.  He also confirmed no Machine Learning      Gavin Stevens has worked in the industry over 20yrs  he is not an xbox twitter shil either he is getting all kinds of heat for releasing the Dm publicly 

[crispy4000]

31 minutes ago, TomCat said:

LOL Rosario Leonardi  is not some Xbox twitter shill He is Principal Graphics Engineer at Sony Interactive Europe.  and he is the one saying its not rnda 2.0  but its 1.0 with some 2.0 features added.  He also confirmed no Machine Learning      Gavin Stevens has worked in the industry over 20yrs  he is not an xbox twitter shil either

 

No idea who Gavin Stevens is, but the twitter account he runs has an ad for Series X as his banner photo.  I'll admit I jumped the gun on it considering your history of posting colteastwood and such.

Regardless, the Sony source that was said to post that on twitter (it was apparently deleted) said it's "in between."  You read that to mean it's mainly just 1.0 with additions.  Meanwhile:

 

Quote

RDNA 2

One gaming DNA

 

RDNA 2 architecture is the foundation for next-generation PC gaming graphics, the highly anticipated PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X consoles.

 

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/rdna-2

 

Whatever the PS5's custom architecture is (and Series X), AMD is still calling it fundamentally RDNA2.

[TomCat]

All I'm saying is that MS is more fully RDNA 2.0 compliant then Sony and as far as VRS is concerned  I dont care what an Artist for Activision says  He probably doesnt even know what VRS is

 

and Sony themselves have never confirmed  VRS Mesh Shaders and ML

[crispy4000]

52 minutes ago, TomCat said:

All I'm saying is that MS is more fully RDNA 2.0 compliant then Sony and as far as VRS is concerned  I dont care what an Artist for Activision says  He probably doesnt even know what VRS is

 

AMD gets to say what is fully RDNA 2.0 compliant and what isn't.

 

 

All signs point to VRS being a baseline ingredient.  As with raytracing.
 

Quote

 

and Sony themselves have never confirmed  VRS Mesh Shaders and ML

 

Doesn't mean developers can't leak.  Which is where we're getting information on VRS in the PS5.

[TomCat]

From an Artist LOL  yet a Graphics engineer from sony says it not fully rdna 2.0

 

[crispy4000]

3 hours ago, TomCat said:

From an Artist LOL  yet a Graphics engineer from sony says it not fully rdna 2.0

 

Tell us then, what exactly about the PS5 isn't fully RDNA 2.0?  What does "fully" RDNA 2.0 even mean?

 

Confirm with sources.   I'll even take a lead artist's leaks.

[Duderino]

6 hours ago, TomCat said:

Secret Sauce     also ps5 has been confirmed not to be fully rdna2.0   No vrs  no mess shaders  

There hasn’t been much in the way of confirmation regarding VRS’s inclusion or exclusion on PS5, but we do know that UE5’s Nanite demo leverages RDNA 2.0’s primative shaders:

Quote

"The vast majority of triangles are software rasterised using hyper-optimised compute shaders specifically designed for the advantages we can exploit," explains Brian Karis. "As a result, we've been able to leave hardware rasterisers in the dust at this specific task. Software rasterisation is a core component of Nanite that allows it to achieve what it does. We can't beat hardware rasterisers in all cases though so we'll use hardware when we've determined it's the faster path. On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders."

I assume the same will also be true for Nanite on the XSX, but how developers interface with it may be different (DX12 API vs PS5’s API).  The differences in performance, if even notable, will probably come down to the finer details.  Things like the XSX's extra horsepower, the PS5’s coherency engine, etc.  It all depends on where the bottlenecks are.

[TomCat]

22 hours ago, Duderino said:

There hasn’t been much in the way of confirmation regarding VRS’s inclusion or exclusion on PS5, but we do know that UE5’s Nanite demo leverages RDNA 2.0’s primative shaders:

I assume the same will also be true for Nanite on the XSX, but how developers interface with it may be different (DX12 API vs PS5’s API).  The differences in performance, if even notable, will probably come down to the finer details.  Things like the XSX's extra horsepower, the PS5’s coherency engine, etc.  It all depends on where the bottlenecks are.

primitive shaders have been confirmed for the ps5

[TomCat]

23 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Tell us then, what exactly about the PS5 isn't fully RDNA 2.0?  What even is "fully" RDNA 2.0?

 

Confirm with sources.   I'll even take a lead artists' opinion.
 

lol really I gave you the lead graphic guy from sony europe saying its not fully rdna 2 and that its a hybrid

[Brian]

they set them up and Tom knocks them do. 

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, TomCat said:

lol really I gave you the lead graphic guy from sony europe saying its not fully rdna 2 and that its a hybrid

What’s in?  What’s out?  Where do the bespoke changes fit in?  We don’t really know.  We have generalities to go by.  But AMD isn’t even telling us yet what RDNA2 cards and devices must have by default.
 

They are saying themselves that Series X and PS5 both qualify.  AMD’s perspective on what RDNA2 apparently differs from this Sony engineers’.  So It all goes back to the question of what qualifies as ‘fully RDNA2.’

 

You’ve heavily implied, assumed, vrs is out.  I’d like to know who is saying that besides you.

[crispy4000]

@TomCat

 

Turns out this is an evolving story.  (Translated) Statement from the same Sony engineer, in the article/pic below:

 

Twitter doofus sounds like he’s extrapolating, but the quotes speak for themselves.

 

It’ll be interesting to know what that “one less” feature is, and why they opted out.

[TomCat]

47 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

@TomCat

 

Turns out this is an evolving story.  (Translated) Statement from the same Sony engineer, in the article/pic below:

 

Twitter doofus sounds like he’s extrapolating, but the quotes speak for themselves.

 

It’ll be interesting to know what that “one less” feature is, and why they opted out.

I'm taking his clarification statement differently  He was Chastized by his boss so he tried to fix it.  I still taking his first statement as fact.  On the RDNA2 scale its more rdna1 then two. but when you compare the custom Features added by Sony its only" one less" then full rdna2.   We know they have the Geometry Engine that hasnt been explained. someone mentioned something about a Coherency engine.  " 

[JPDunks4]

My only real take from all this, is for whatever reason, Sony is being extremely quiet and reserved in all its messaging revolving around PS5.  It's a very stark difference than how they handled the PS4 launch, when they actively mocked and joked about Microsoft's messaging.  Now Sony also is in a different market position, and may think they just simply don't have to do much messaging, but I still do find it odd how they haven't really clarified much of anything.

 

It wouldn't take much to come out and just confirm, yes we are using these new solutions, but they haven't. They could come out and say, we can confirm at launch we'll have thousands of PS4 games Back Compat, but they haven't.  It just leaves so much up in the air.

 

But I've stated in the past, Cerny and their team seem to know what they are doing, and learned their mistakes from the PS3 launch, and I expect the PS5 to be just fine.  The hardware will still be more than capable enough to put out amazing games.  Their 1st party will continue to release absolutely amazing games.  

 

The biggest ? I think will be how the game streaming and Game Pass stuff may change the gaming landscape over this gen, and how quickly Sony can competitively enter that space if they really need to.

[crispy4000]

22 minutes ago, TomCat said:

I'm taking his clarification statement differently  He was Chastized by his boss so he tried to fix it.  I still taking his first statement as fact.  On the RDNA2 scale its more rdna1 then two.

His first statement was that it was somewhere in between.  You’re the one who spun that to mean more 1.0 than 2.0.

 

So of course you find it hard to take his clarification at face value.  You misinterpreted what he said.  And have decided to stick to that misrepresentation, in spite of AMD, Cerny, and now him saying PS5 is foundationally RDNA2 based.

 

22 minutes ago, TomCat said:

. but when you compare the custom Features added by Sony its only" one less" then full rdna2.   We know they have the Geometry Engine that hasnt been explained. someone mentioned something about a Coherency engine.  " 

I actually agree with you here.  Whatever custom stuff they have in there could make up for that one less feature.  Or it might have nothing to do with it.

 

We just don’t know.

[crispy4000]

23 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

My only real take from all this, is for whatever reason, Sony is being extremely quiet and reserved in all its messaging revolving around PS5.  It's a very stark difference than how they handled the PS4 launch, when they actively mocked and joked about Microsoft's messaging.  Now Sony also is in a different market position, and may think they just simply don't have to do much messaging, but I still do find it odd how they haven't really clarified much of anything.

 

It wouldn't take much to come out and just confirm, yes we are using these new solutions, but they haven't. They could come out and say, we can confirm at launch we'll have thousands of PS4 games Back Compat, but they haven't.  It just leaves so much up in the air.

 

But I've stated in the past, Cerny and their team seem to know what they are doing, and learned their mistakes from the PS3 launch, and I expect the PS5 to be just fine.  The hardware will still be more than capable enough to put out amazing games.  Their 1st party will continue to release absolutely amazing games.

I think bespoke solutions will always be a little cagey to discuss.  There’s an art to giving just enough away explain a process, but not enough to give away competitive advantage.

 

I’m actually reminded of MS in that too with the X1X.  They’d often throw out statements like ‘we’ve made hundreds of optimizations’ without going into the nitty gritty.

 

Microsoft probably isn’t playing their full hand with Series X either.  But what they’ve highlighted is probably what they felt is most impactful.  As did Cerny in his presentation.

[TomCat]

14 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

His first statement was that it was somewhere in between.  You’re the one who spun that to mean more 1.0 than 2.0.

 

So of course you find it hard to take his clarification at face value.  You misinterpreted what he said.  And have decided to stick to that misrepresentation, in spite of AMD, Cerny, and now him saying PS5 is foundationally RDNA2 based.

 

I actually agree with you here.  Whatever custom stuff they have in there could make up for that one less feature.  Or it might have nothing to do with it.

 

We just don’t know.

nope no misinterpretation here

[crispy4000]

3 minutes ago, TomCat said:

nope no misinterpretation here

do you always round down?

[TomCat]

9 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I think bespoke solutions will always be a little cagey to discuss.  There’s an art to giving just enough away explain a process, but not enough to give away competitive advantage.

 

I’m actually reminded of MS in that too with the X1X.  They’d often throw out statements like ‘we’ve made hundreds of optimizations’ without going into the nitty gritty.

 

Microsoft probably isn’t playing their full hand with Series X either.  But what they’ve highlighted is probably what they felt is most impactful.  As did Cerny in his presentation.

Ms does there homework but they do it a different way.  they optimizations that they make are base on data they get from the engines and how they perform.  thats why they was able to get 4k60 out of a damn jaguar core.  Now just imagine what they are going to do with a fully optimized system from head to toe. directx12 ultimate was created for the series X

 

1.5 gets rounded down in my book

[crispy4000]

35 minutes ago, TomCat said:

Ms does there homework but they do it a different way.  they optimizations that they make are base on data they get from the engines and how they perform.  thats why they was able to get 4k60 out of a damn jaguar core.  Now just imagine what they are going to do with a fully optimized system from head to toe. directx12 ultimate was created for the series X

No doubt there’s different approaches they take.  But of course Sony is also looking at performance data and making decisions from there on how to reduce bottlenecks.  They’re both testing, and both engineering.  (And both working with the same chip manufacturer too!)

 

Oh, and there is no such thing as a fully optimized system.  No idea where you get that.

[crispy4000]

32 minutes ago, TomCat said:

1.5 gets rounded down in my book

 

Unorthodox logic aside...  He never said 1.5.  You did.

 

You can be between things without being equidistant from them.