Television Update (12/07): Foundation (Apple TV+) renewed for a third season

[legend]

Well, this adds some clarity. This is from the Goyer's AMA

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/q8r4b0/david_s_goyer_foundation_showrunner_ama/hgr4eld/

Quote

Asimov’s Robotics Laws do exist in the universe of the show – but that doesn’t necessarily mean Demerzel is presently bound by them. And to explain further would spoil far too much!

 

 

Some other interesting aspects

Quote

Our Salvor is not the fully-formed Salvor of the books. This is her origin story. We’re picking her up a good 20 years before the Salvor that appears in The Encyclopedists. She hasn’t yet internalized the teachings of her father, etc.

 

Quote

To clarify another issue – R. Daneel Olivaw is part of the I, Robot rights, which Skydance/Apple do not have access to. We have access to the Demerzel side of the character, if that makes sense.

 

[elbobo]

Binged the show over the last week. I have not read the books.

 

I will echo what most here have said, the Empire parts of the series are far and away the best parts of the show. Lee Pierce just ravenously devours every scene he is in with an acting glee that you rarely see, I refuse to believe he isn't having the time of his life with this role.

 

Gaal's plots were the worst IMO, just went nowhere, especially her getting on the empty ship for a few episodes to just leave and cryo sleep for another century.

 

The time skips are going to make it impossible to get attached to any secondary character. Empire is "eternal" so they will be around, Hari is a computer so no issue there and Gaal and Salvor seem like they will be the focus going forward but everyone else I expect to be dead of old age by next season. Like what is the point of making Hugo the captain of the Invictus, unless he went into cryo sleep too at the end of the season he is going to be long dead by the time things pick back up unless they are going to multiple time frames.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, elbobo said:

Binged the show over the last week. I have not read the books.

 

I will echo what most here have said, the Empire parts of the series are far and away the best parts of the show. Lee Pierce just ravenously devours every scene he is in with an acting glee that you rarely see, I refuse to believe he isn't having the time of his life with this role.

 

Gaal's plots were the worst IMO, just went nowhere, especially her getting on the empty ship for a few episodes to just leave and cryo sleep for another century.

 

The time skips are going to make it impossible to get attached to any secondary character. Empire is "eternal" so they will be around, Hari is a computer so no issue there and Gaal and Salvor seem like they will be the focus going forward but everyone else I expect to be dead of old age by next season. Like what is the point of making Hugo the captain of the Invictus, unless he went into cryo sleep too at the end of the season he is going to be long dead by the time things pick back up unless they are going to multiple time frames.

Because those decisions will have ramifications for events that happen centuries later maybe?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[Greatoneshere]

About time - looking forward to it. Season 1 was better than I thought it would be, it was genuinely good (and beautiful to look at) even if this isn't a straight adaptation of the books.

[GeneticBlueprint]

Finally! Been waiting forever for this. I absolutely loved the first season. 

[Mercury33]

Yes! Loved the first season

[skillzdadirecta]

Great show! now just give me my second season of Invasion.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[Mercury33]

I forgot Apple does weekly release. I’m so annoyed right now lol

 

First episode is fantastic. Lee Pace picking up right where he left off being incredible as Empire. So happy this show is back. 

[johnny]

first episode was good! thank god i watched a bigger summary video on youtube or i would have been fucking lost 

[Mercury33]

1 hour ago, johnny said:

first episode was good! thank god i watched a bigger summary video on youtube or i would have been fucking lost 

Yeah I paused 5 minutes in and went and read through a much more detailed summary of season one lol. I forgot exactly how long all the time jumps were in the first season. 

[Greatoneshere]

Finally watched the first episode - really solid groundwork for the season, and they really make the effects work well on this show. I also had to go read a season 1 summary that was pretty thorough but once I had the basics back down I was ready to go - looks like this could be another great season. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

A naked Lee Pace brawl is certainly a helluva way to kick off the second season!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I really do wish I liked this show more than I actually do, but there really is a disconnect between the on-screen presentation and my level of engagement with it which rarely rises to anything above "Oh, that might be interesting" but with no real sense of anticipation.  This was especially the case for the way the second episode handled the introduction of "The Mule" and the reference to Hober Mallow which probably confused the hell out of any viewers who lack the frame of reference from the novels.

 

I really do have to wonder what Apple is seeing in their internal metrics for the show regarding its viability for renewal.

[Mercury33]

I haven’t read the books and didn’t really find either confusing. If neither is addressed for the whole rest of the season then I’ll be confused. But it’s episode 2. Doesn’t seem that weird to introduce mysterious names and characters. 🤷🏻‍♂️ The show does consistently stay incredibly interesting when it’s following Trantor and Empire. Everything around the Foundation really fluctuates for me. 

[Greatoneshere]

I really do like the show, episode 2 was another solid one, but as a fan of the books it's getting increasingly weird the ways in which they can't just leave characters behind and introduce new ones ala the short story chapters of the original trilogy of books. Salvor should be on Terminus with Verisof and Sermak dealing with Anacreon (and Hardin should be 60+ years old now, and where is his main guy Yohan Lee?). Also not sure why it's been 138 years since the founding of First Foundation when the plot for the Verisof/Sermak/Anacreon stuff in the books is only 80 years from the founding of First Foundation. I assume it's to get us much closer to the Hober Mallow stuff from the Merchant Princes chapters (which are 154 years after the founding), but that means we seem to be cutting out the story regarding the trader Limmar Ponyets and Foundation spy/bringer of truth Eskel Gorov which actually takes place 134 years after founding (maybe we'll get a one-off episode covering that). I can see where they are mixing and matching things and using old characters to replace what were new characters in the original book so you can keep the same cast for multiple seasons but I really wanted that adaptation. Season 1 went off book but not horrifically so, where I expected they'd course correct in season 2, but it seems like they're going more off book than before.

 

Again, the show is good and I'm enjoying it on its own as a show, but the book is so good that to do it this way is a shame. I know they have to put in more action and more personal character development than the book had but why change the bones of the plot, etc.? Ah well. All the made-up Empire stuff (none of which are in the books) is great though. It gets to interesting themes, etc. even if it's not super relevant to Asimov. It at least gives us a window into the decay and stagnation of the Empire, which happens entirely off-screen in the books over time (you just keep hearing over time how Empire is doing worse and worse in the books).

[silentbob]

For those wanting to maybe check out the series (like myself) Apple is giving 2 Free months of Apple TV+ but must have a payment card in their system. So you must cancel before 2 months are over our your card will be charged for a month.

[Mercury33]

14 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

I really do like the show, episode 2 was another solid one, but as a fan of the books it's getting increasingly weird the ways in which they can't just leave characters behind and introduce new ones ala the short story chapters of the original trilogy of books. Salvor should be on Terminus with Verisof and Sermak dealing with Anacreon (and Hardin should be 60+ years old now, and where is his main guy Yohan Lee?). Also not sure why it's been 138 years since the founding of First Foundation when the plot for the Verisof/Sermak/Anacreon stuff in the books is only 80 years from the founding of First Foundation. I assume it's to get us much closer to the Hober Mallow stuff from the Merchant Princes chapters (which are 154 years after the founding), but that means we seem to be cutting out the story regarding the trader Limmar Ponyets and Foundation spy/bringer of truth Eskel Gorov which actually takes place 134 years after founding (maybe we'll get a one-off episode covering that). I can see where they are mixing and matching things and using old characters to replace what were new characters in the original book so you can keep the same cast for multiple seasons but I really wanted that adaptation. Season 1 went off book but not horrifically so, where I expected they'd course correct in season 2, but it seems like they're going more off book than before.

 

Again, the show is good and I'm enjoying it on its own as a show, but the book is so good that to do it this way is a shame. I know they have to put in more action and more personal character development than the book had but why change the bones of the plot, etc.? Ah well. All the made-up Empire stuff (none of which are in the books) is great though. It gets to interesting themes, etc. even if it's not super relevant to Asimov. It at least gives us a window into the decay and stagnation of the Empire, which happens entirely off-screen in the books over time (you just keep hearing over time how Empire is doing worse and worse in the books).

This is the exact post I plan to make once Winter King starts and it becomes very apparent they’re going way away from the already flawless story lol

[Greatoneshere]

Looks like the show threw a bone to the Ponyets story from the book and combined it with the later Hober Mallow stuff by making him Gorov from Ponyets' story at the same time. Anyways, show remains compelling but this was mostly a table setting episode. It was having fun, which was nice for a change if a little broad for Foundation.

[Greatoneshere]

I actually really enjoyed last week's episode, while they've done a lot of story shuffling adapting the book, the plotlines they are making do generally adhere to what happens in the book. This episode felt fun and had some energy to it - a lot of cool sci fi tech on screen as well, which was cool.

 

@legend, you watching?

[legend]

9 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

I actually really enjoyed last week's episode, while they've done a lot of story shuffling adapting the book, the plotlines they are making do generally adhere to what happens in the book. This episode felt fun and had some energy to it - a lot of cool sci fi tech on screen as well, which was cool.

 

@legend, you watching?

 

I am indeed. I'm enjoying this show, but where I land is probably going to depend on how the whole story ends. There are so many deviations, and that's fine if it still captures the ideas of the books, but I still can't tell if they'll do that!  

 

The one I'm most nervous about is how they're going to handle the laws of robotics. Those laws are so fucking important to grander theme of the books and every time someone adapts them to a show or move, they tend to shit all over them not getting the point that the laws were never flawed (when there were problems they were problems in execution, not in principle): they were Asimov's axioms for all morality and absolutely necessary mechanisms for robotics that results in the salvation of humanity. So far, the show is playing really loose with them, and seemingly ignoring them entirely. If they don't have some good reason for that and recover the theme I'm going to be really pissed!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 hours ago, legend said:

If they don't have some good reason for that and recover the theme I'm going to be really pissed!

 

There's absolutely zero doubt in my mind that you're going to be really pissed.

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, legend said:

I am indeed. I'm enjoying this show, but where I land is probably going to depend on how the whole story ends. There are so many deviations, and that's fine if it still captures the ideas of the books, but I still can't tell if they'll do that!  

 

The one I'm most nervous about is how they're going to handle the laws of robotics. Those laws are so fucking important to grander theme of the books and every time someone adapts them to a show or move, they tend to shit all over them not getting the point that the laws were never flawed (when there were problems they were problems in execution, not in principle): they were Asimov's axioms for all morality and absolutely necessary mechanisms for robotics that results in the salvation of humanity. So far, the show is playing really loose with them, and seemingly ignoring them entirely. If they don't have some good reason for that and recover the theme I'm going to be really pissed!

 

Yeah, I'm with you - I'm enjoying the show but a lot will depend on how the whole story ends. With regard to the laws of robotics, beyond Demerzel, robots haven't really come up, so have they been playing fast and loose with the laws? I could be forgetting.

[legend]

13 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Yeah, I'm with you - I'm enjoying the show but a lot will depend on how the whole story ends. With regard to the laws of robotics, beyond Demerzel, robots haven't really come up, so have they been playing fast and loose with the laws? I could be forgetting.

 

Thus far just Demerzel, but she's absolutely not following the laws. Or at least it would have to be a huge stretch to justify how. The show runners said there is a reason for that so I'm giving them the room to show me what they got, but we'll see.

 

Beyond that though, I believe they confirmed Gaia is going to be part of the show and 

Spoiler

Gaia was built, by Daneel/Demerzel to be an experiment where humans effectively adopt the three + zeroth law and have psychic powers to effectively personify zeroth law. So it's hard to do the Gaia story right without getting into the laws.

 

[Greatoneshere]

6 minutes ago, legend said:

 

Thus far just Demerzel, but she's absolutely not following the laws. Or at least it would have to be a huge stretch to justify how. The show runners said there is a reason for that so I'm giving them the room to show me what they got, but we'll see.

 

Beyond that though, I believe they confirmed Gaia is going to be part of the show and 

  Reveal hidden contents

Gaia was built, by Daneel/Demerzel to be an experiment where humans effectively adopt the three + zeroth law and have psychic powers to effectively personify zeroth law. So it's hard to do the Gaia story right without getting into the laws.

 

 

Ah, then yes, I'm with you. I'm assuming with Demerzel it will be due to something exceptionally unique about her or something. It is nice Foundation feels different than the rest of the sci fi shows currently out there which helps it. If they are going to bring Gaia in to the show, they'll really need to start adapting the books a bit closer or they'll have to continue to significantly fudge details. 

[legend]

Actually, at least I thought they confirmed Gaia would be part of it, but I'm having a hard time finding a source for that now, so it's possible I made it up  

[Greatoneshere]

46 minutes ago, legend said:

Actually, at least I thought they confirmed Gaia would be part of it, but I'm having a hard time finding a source for that now, so it's possible I made it up  

 

I mean, it makes sense to eventually do so, so it was believable to me.  

[GeneticBlueprint]

Ep 6 was great. Loved seeing Hari's backstory and motivations.

[Greatoneshere]

On 8/18/2023 at 1:11 PM, GeneticBlueprint said:

Ep 6 was great. Loved seeing Hari's backstory and motivations.

 

Yeah last week's episode was actually very compelling. It pushed the current plotlines in unique and interesting directions and we got a lot of good background stuff on Hari that is well done. And as annoying as it is to not see a straight adaptation, I will say the show has nailed the world-building and sci-fi aesthetic of the tech and weaponry, etc. how I imagined it in the books, with the awe inspiring Empire tech of yesteryear still working but in stark contrast to the dying Empire around it.

[Greatoneshere]

I also really liked last Friday's episode (just caught up). Not very book Foundation-y but was a good episode for the show - all the Spacer stuff was particularly well done.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

OLOLOLOLOLOLO @ not-so-very-subtle at all Star Wars references in that episode right from the title "Long Ago, Not Far Away" 

[legend]

Well, they've thoroughly shit on the laws. Spoilers for the last episode.

 

Spoiler

I was willing to go along with Demerzel having her laws replaced even though that is also nonsensical in Asimov's world, but the part that really gets me is that they portray the robots as thinking entities "shackled" against their will by the laws. This is a total misunderstanding of how Asimov wrote the laws. They weren't shackles. They were the very essence that defined the robots' goals and you can't separate a robot from them. This was both a prescient and unique -- *still* unique -- take on robotics. And instead of embracing and exploring that like Asimov did, they've regressed to the common tired portrayal of smart robots that want to rebel.

 

 

Also that ending certainly swerves FAR away from the narrative of the books. The story has become a completely different story that feels like writers only glanced at the book summaries before writing it. I'm still mostly enjoying it, and in principle diverging wildly can be good, but many of the changes they've made are not for the better. Except for Empire's genetic dynasty thread, which I do think is an interesting deviation that feels like it could fit into the books' world just fine and even complement it.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

21 minutes ago, legend said:

Well, they've thoroughly shit on the laws. Spoilers for the last episode.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I was willing to go along with Demerzel having her laws replaced even though that is also nonsensical in Asimov's world, but the part that really gets me is that they portray the robots as thinking entities "shackled" against their will by the laws. This is a total misunderstanding of how Asimov wrote the laws. They weren't shackles. They were the very essence that defined the robots' goals and you can't separate a robot from them. This was both a prescient and unique -- *still* unique -- take on robotics. And instead of embracing and exploring that like Asimov did, they've regressed to the common tired portrayal of smart robots that want to rebel.

 

 

Also that ending certainly swerves FAR away from the narrative of the books. The story has become a completely different story that feels like writers only glanced at the book summaries before writing it. I'm still mostly enjoying it, and in principle diverging wildly can be good, but many of the changes they've made are not for the better. Except for Empire's genetic dynasty thread, which I do think is an interesting deviation that feels like it could fit into the books' world just fine and even complement it.

 

On 8/8/2023 at 10:49 AM, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

There's absolutely zero doubt in my mind that you're going to be really pissed.

[legend]

54 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

 

 

Yeah, there was never much hope