Television Update (12/07): Foundation (Apple TV+) renewed for a third season

[Greatoneshere]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:27 PM, legend said:

Well, they've thoroughly shit on the laws. Spoilers for the last episode.

 

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I was willing to go along with Demerzel having her laws replaced even though that is also nonsensical in Asimov's world, but the part that really gets me is that they portray the robots as thinking entities "shackled" against their will by the laws. This is a total misunderstanding of how Asimov wrote the laws. They weren't shackles. They were the very essence that defined the robots' goals and you can't separate a robot from them. This was both a prescient and unique -- *still* unique -- take on robotics. And instead of embracing and exploring that like Asimov did, they've regressed to the common tired portrayal of smart robots that want to rebel.

 

 

Also that ending certainly swerves FAR away from the narrative of the books. The story has become a completely different story that feels like writers only glanced at the book summaries before writing it. I'm still mostly enjoying it, and in principle diverging wildly can be good, but many of the changes they've made are not for the better. Except for Empire's genetic dynasty thread, which I do think is an interesting deviation that feels like it could fit into the books' world just fine and even complement it.

 

Yeah, I think I'm in a similar place. The show is a fun and entertaining sci-fi show but like a lot of showrunner David S. Goyer's work (which is usually trash, but when it happens to be good), it's all very blockbuster-y at best but not typically substantive. Having Hari Seldon dropping one liners while bashing a person's brains in and having huge sci-fi battles are cool but we've strayed so far from the typically more dialogue-driven, contemplative tone of Asimov's work in general and Foundation in this case. It's kind of bizarre why they bothered to "adapt" Foundation except maybe they did it on brand name alone since Raised by Wolves was trying to do sci-fi but as an original work and that got cancelled by comparison (for a lot of reasons, but still). 

 

As for Demerzel: 

 

Spoiler

While I agree completely that there's no way Goyer and this show handle the Laws of Robotics correctly, I will say they seem to be intimating that Demerzel is "unique" and "special" even among robots. That happens in certain Asimov works though in very different ways than here. Demerzel appears to "feel" and feel shackled against her desire to have complete freedom, but at the same time she didn't seize freedom when the opportunity presents itself. There seems to be something unique about her whilst she still seems to subsconsciously submit herself to humans when it appears she doesn't want to. That doesn't necessarily mean all robots will be the same way so maybe there's still some wiggle room here for the show but I'm not counting on it.

 

I feel the same way about the Will Smith movie I, Robot. Fun and entertaining sci-fi movie but a bad Asimov adaptation. The Bicentennial Man is much the same way, but that seems to at least understand Asimov adaptations aren't action movies. We just can't seem to get a good Asimov adaptation. An anthology series adapting Foundation would have been a far better approach than serialized storytelling in the traditional way Goyer went with.

[legend]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

I feel the same way about the Will Smith movie I, Robot. Fun and entertaining sci-fi movie but a bad Asimov adaptation. 

 

Oh yeah. In a vacuum I found that movie dumbly entertaining enough, but making the "hero robot" be one with incomplete laws (or something of that sort) that would free the others would have Asimov rolling in his grave. The robot-foundation novels are my favorite book series and yet its message and themes have never been replicated in movies and maybe not even many books (though I'm less of a book reader so maybe I'm just ignorant of them). It's both baffling and frustrating. And in this era where everyone is freaking out about AI coming to kill us, we could really use more of those messages.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, legend said:

 

Oh yeah. In a vacuum I found that movie dumbly entertaining enough, but making the "hero robot" be one with incomplete laws (or something of that sort) that would free the others would have Asimov rolling in his grave. The robot-foundation novels are my favorite book series and yet its message and themes have never been replicated in movies and maybe not even many books (though I'm less of a book reader so maybe I'm just ignorant of them). It's both baffling and frustrating. And in this era where everyone is freaking out about AI coming to kill us, we could really use more of those messages.

 

Agreed - now is the perfect time. Adapting Foundation this way is a really missed opportunity for what could have been some fascinating, time-jumping, short story sci-fi.

[GeneticBlueprint]

I thought that was a fantastic episode. Every actor in the show brining their A-game. I mean god damn that was such a cool sequence watching the Invictus make planetfall and making Terminus crack like an egg. Day soaking it all in and loving every second of it. Lee Pace is amazing. Glaywin's farewell was heartbreaking because of Bel's reaction. Apparently those two actors are in a long running stage play together where they play lovers and that's why their chemistry has worked so well this season. But I think my Tellum being a bastardized spelling of The Mule theory isn't going to pan out.

[TwinIon]

I never really expected a straightforward adaptation of the book, and while I agree with some of the issues brought up, I think the show is really finding it's stride. It's doing crazy sci-fi on a big scale and real quality and I've really enjoyed this season. I'm hoping that they get another season, even if it wouldn't surprise me if it got canceled. Apple has enough other big budget sci-fi now that Foundation feels more expendable now.

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, TwinIon said:

I never really expected a straightforward adaptation of the book, and while I agree with some of the issues brought up, I think the show is really finding it's stride. It's doing crazy sci-fi on a big scale and real quality and I've really enjoyed this season. I'm hoping that they get another season, even if it wouldn't surprise me if it got canceled. Apple has enough other big budget sci-fi now that Foundation feels more expendable now.

 

I certainly want another season of the show for its own sake, but this isn't an adaptation of the books at all except in extremely broad terms, much less a straightforward adaptation, and that's the shame here. How long because of the existence of this show until we get another, more direct and correct adaptation of Asimov's philosophy and writings? Probably as long as between Dune (1984 to 2000 to 2021; 16 years and then 21 years) or LOTR adaptations (1978 to 2001 to 2022; 23 years and then 21 years). It's going to be awhile unfortunately. In the meantime, I'll continue watching Foundation as if it's called something else and enjoy it for what it is, almost completely unrelated to Foundation the book series.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

 How long because of the existence of this show until we get another, more direct and correct adaptation of Asimov's philosophy and writings? 

 

I can answer that question right now:  never.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

I can answer that question right now:  never.

 

Yeah I'd say that's very likely.

[TwinIon]

2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

I certainly want another season of the show for its own sake, but this isn't an adaptation of the books at all except in extremely broad terms, much less a straightforward adaptation, and that's the shame here. How long because of the existence of this show until we get another, more direct and correct adaptation of Asimov's philosophy and writings? Probably as long as between Dune (1984 to 2000 to 2021; 16 years and then 21 years) or LOTR adaptations (1978 to 2001 to 2022; 23 years and then 21 years). It's going to be awhile unfortunately. In the meantime, I'll continue watching Foundation as if it's called something else and enjoy it for what it is, almost completely unrelated to Foundation the book series.

You're not wrong that this isn't really an adaptation, but the difference between Foundation and other sci-fi/fantasy series is that it was never going to be a straightforward adaptation. There's a reason that it took nearly 70 years before a major adaptation was finally made and that when it finally was that it didn't resemble the books.

 

It's been a long time since I read them, but I remember thinking that they were not inherently cinematic at all. Now, I think the level of complexity that viewers are willing to accept has certainly changed, especially when you have a big budget TV show vs a movie, but Foundation was always a hard sell.

 

At the same time, I don't think that this series has reached the level of acclaim or profit to make it feel definitive. They haven't hit a gold mine such that they'll hold onto the property forever, and by the time the rights lapse I doubt the general sentiment will be "you can't remake Foundation" in the same way that people feel about LOTR. I think the ultimate issue preventing a second adaptation is the same one that prevented the first: the nature of the story.

[Greatoneshere]

11 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

You're not wrong that this isn't really an adaptation, but the difference between Foundation and other sci-fi/fantasy series is that it was never going to be a straightforward adaptation. There's a reason that it took nearly 70 years before a major adaptation was finally made and that when it finally was that it didn't resemble the books.

 

It's been a long time since I read them, but I remember thinking that they were not inherently cinematic at all. Now, I think the level of complexity that viewers are willing to accept has certainly changed, especially when you have a big budget TV show vs a movie, but Foundation was always a hard sell.

 

At the same time, I don't think that this series has reached the level of acclaim or profit to make it feel definitive. They haven't hit a gold mine such that they'll hold onto the property forever, and by the time the rights lapse I doubt the general sentiment will be "you can't remake Foundation" in the same way that people feel about LOTR. I think the ultimate issue preventing a second adaptation is the same one that prevented the first: the nature of the story.

 

Yeah, I agree with all of that, but revisiting any IP, big or small or done well or not in the past takes a lot of time between adaptations, usually (unless it's something like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Jack Ryan, etc.). I'll just say though that having just re-read the first two books (and counting), I actually think they could be done incredibly cinematically. Foundation the show does nail the sort of large scope/intimate drama that the books have, and I'd say the show even nails the tone of a decaying Empire. But the show is too straightforward and too generic in terms of "typical" prestige TV. With the right showrunner at the helm it could have been something special as opposed to entertaining and merely good. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

3 hours ago, TwinIon said:

You're not wrong that this isn't really an adaptation, but the difference between Foundation and other sci-fi/fantasy series is that it was never going to be a straightforward adaptation. There's a reason that it took nearly 70 years before a major adaptation was finally made and that when it finally was that it didn't resemble the books.

 

It's been a long time since I read them, but I remember thinking that they were not inherently cinematic at all. Now, I think the level of complexity that viewers are willing to accept has certainly changed, especially when you have a big budget TV show vs a movie, but Foundation was always a hard sell.

 

At the same time, I don't think that this series has reached the level of acclaim or profit to make it feel definitive. They haven't hit a gold mine such that they'll hold onto the property forever, and by the time the rights lapse I doubt the general sentiment will be "you can't remake Foundation" in the same way that people feel about LOTR. I think the ultimate issue preventing a second adaptation is the same one that prevented the first: the nature of the story.

Asimov himself said that what’s on the pages couldn’t be adapted 1:1. And he was fine with that. Even encouraged it. 
 

Quote

"My nonappearance on the screen has not bothered me. I am strictly a print person. I write material that is intended to appear on a printed page, and not on a screen, either large or small. I have been invited on numerous occasions to write a screenplay for motion picture or television, either original, or as an adaptation of my own story or someone else's, and I have refused every time. Whatever talents I may have, writing for the eye is not one of them, and I am lucky enough to know what I can't do.

 

"On the other hand, if someone else -- someone who has the particular talent of writing for the eye that I do not have -- were to adapt one of my stories for the screen, I would not expect that the screen version be 'faithful' to the print version."

Broad strokes and themes are there.
 

I agree that it might not be a definitive work. But the fact we have to point to a 20 year old franchise as an example of such? Nobody is making definitive things anymore. Not that don’t shit the bed and ruin their goodwill at any rate. But I do think it’s some of the best sci-fi I’ve seen on the screen big or small in I don’t know how long. Visually stunning. Fantastically acted. Generates a sense of wonder and awe. Makes you wonder about the ethical application of advanced technologies and contact with other intelligent life. That’s everything I want in sci-fi that so many movies and shows can’t seem to get right.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

I agree that it might not be a definitive work. But the fact we have to point to a 20 year old franchise as an example of such? Nobody is making definitive things anymore. Not that don’t shit the bed and ruin their goodwill at any rate. But I do think it’s some of the best sci-fi I’ve seen on the screen big or small in I don’t know how long. Visually stunning. Fantastically acted. Generates a sense of wonder and awe. Makes you wonder about the ethical application of advanced technologies and contact with other intelligent life. That’s everything I want in sci-fi that so many movies and shows can’t seem to get right.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree. The issue is Asimov is much more like the film Ad Astra tonally (the Brad Pitt sci-fi film) or something less blockbuster-y. And this isn't an adaptation at all - it doesn't follow the storyline of the books at all. So why is it called Foundation? That's the only issue here.

[legend]

12 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

Asimov himself said that what’s on the pages couldn’t be adapted 1:1. And he was fine with that. Even encouraged it. 
 

Broad strokes and themes are there.
 

I agree that it might not be a definitive work. But the fact we have to point to a 20 year old franchise as an example of such? Nobody is making definitive things anymore. Not that don’t shit the bed and ruin their goodwill at any rate. But I do think it’s some of the best sci-fi I’ve seen on the screen big or small in I don’t know how long. Visually stunning. Fantastically acted. Generates a sense of wonder and awe. Makes you wonder about the ethical application of advanced technologies and contact with other intelligent life. That’s everything I want in sci-fi that so many movies and shows can’t seem to get right.

 

I completely welcome changes. I'm not happy that the changes have also changed the message of the books. I'll enjoy it, but that's what is disappointing to me.

[brucoe]

I realize they've strayed way off from the original IP, but we're still operating in Asimov's territory, and I really want them to find Earth no matter how many seasons they have to somehow manage to squeak out.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, brucoe said:

I realize they've strayed way off from the original IP, but we're still operating in Asimov's territory, and I really want them to find Earth no matter how many seasons they have to somehow manage to squeak out.

 

Agreed but I can say with little doubt Asimov would probably hate this adaptation of his books.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

That was definitely a season finale alright.

 

I wish I could say that the dramatic moments felt resonant because they're earned, but most of the characters are so one-dimensionally paper thin (especially Gaal who genuinely appears to have done little more this entire season other than cry) that those moments simply land with a resounding thud for me.

[Greatoneshere]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:48 PM, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

That was definitely a season finale alright.

 

I wish I could say that the dramatic moments felt resonant because they're earned, but most of the characters are so one-dimensionally paper thin (especially Gaal who genuinely appears to have done little more this entire season other than cry) that those moments simply land with a resounding thud for me.

 

I don't think I was as down on the finale as you, but I feel the same way. Characters I was enjoying like Bel Riose and Hober Mallow and Salvor Hardin die but their deaths didn't feel dramatically earned because we were only just starting to get to know these characters. The finale was a lot of fun at least, I liked the reveal that the vault saved the first Foundation (I'll ignore the logistics of how this was pulled off in the time they had last episode) and the stuff with Demerzel was dramatically compelling. I'm definitely interested in a season 3 but I'm hoping for a bit more character depth if the show is going to be adamant about sticking with the same characters the whole show.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

Characters I was enjoying like Bel Riose...

 

His demise was the point where I physically threw up my hands and audibly said, "Whatever."

 

He had the potential to be the most interesting antagonist against the Cleon Dynasty, but Goyer -- for whatever reason -- decided to end his role in order to score some cheap, practically non-existent dramatic points.

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

His demise was the point where I physically threw up my hands and audibly said, "Whatever."

 

He had the potential to be the most interesting antagonist against the Cleon Dynasty, but Goyer -- for whatever reason -- decided to end his role in order to score some cheap, practically non-existent dramatic points.

 

I completely agree! They wrote this really good version of Bel Riose from the book for the show and set him up as doing a potential military coup against Empire in season 3 or something but instead Glawen is alive and he's dead? Lame. The show nails moments on a macro scale and there's an endearing kindness to the way characters interact with each other (the good guys, anyway) like Poly Verisof and Brother Constant's relationship but then when it devolves into trying to be a typical prestige drama with big deaths that try to make people cry, etc. the show fails.

[skillzdadirecta]

two episodes left... this show is Game of Thrones good.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Renewed for a third season:

 

‘Foundation’ Renewed for Season 3 at Apple

VARIETY.COM

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"Foundation" has been renewed for Season 3 at Apple TV+.

 

Quote

 

“Foundation” has been renewed for Season 3 at Apple TV+.

 

“I’m thrilled Apple has given us the opportunity to continue chronicling Asimov’s pioneering galactic saga. This time, the stakes for Foundation and Empire are even higher as the Mule takes center stage, along with fan-favorites Bayta,Toran, Ebling, and Magnifico Giganticus,” said showrunner and executive producer David S. Goyer.