Comics First There Was "Gamergate" now there's "Comicsgate"?

[skillzdadirecta]

For fuck's sake! 

And Ethan Van Sciver is down with these clowns? Say it ain't so Ethan!

[Guest]

There is something absolutely fascinating about people who seem to genuinely think diversity and representation don’t matter AND get upset that people who look like them are appearning slightly less frequently but still predominantly. There are obviously plenty who get why diversity matters and hate it for that reason.

[Reputator]

Why does it feel like decades of social and politcal progress has been undone in just the last couple of years?

[Remarkableriots]

13 hours ago, Reputator said:

Why does it feel like decades of social and politcal progress has been undone in just the last couple of years?

Look at all the despicable hate at John Boyega & Daisy Ridley when The Force Awakens released.  

[Wild]

14 hours ago, Reputator said:

Why does it feel like decades of social and politcal progress has been undone in just the last couple of years?

 

You know how in college when you skip your first class you wait for the "punishment" but then realize it's not coming, and suddenly skipping class loses that foreboding sense of dread? It's kind of like that. The last couple years has shown that the only thing holding the racists and misogynists back was fear of retribution. Once politicians and provocateurs made it ok to openly be an asshole as long as you're their asshole, the assholes were emboldened.

 

Shame was the barrier that kept these morons at bay. Now they have no shame, and echo chambers that reassure them if they do start to feel it.

[Man_of_X]

Van Sciver has been know to shove his foot in his mouth on more than one occasion.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely just shitty fucking people whose opinion doesn't really matter.  The tough task trying to organically create diversity from hundreds of characters that were created when it was white city is fucking hard.

 

Now, excluding the above shitty people, what other people have a problem with is taking a character that has decades of history, fucking murdering them or killing them off in some form or fashion and then, wham, here's a brand new diverse character with legacy character's name.  This is not the way to do it, and quite frankly, it's fucking lazy.

 

It puts more pressure on creators to be extremely smart with how these characters are introduced.  Ms. Marvel was done perfectly.  Miles Morales Spider-Man was initially alternate universe, but is now in the main Marvel universe and he was done excellent as well.

 

If a replacement character also has a long history with the original, that can work well too.  Female Thor and Awesome Hulk were examples of this.

 

As it is, I don't have a single problem with getting the industry more diverse and reflective of real life, as long as they're doing it in a creative way.

 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

27 minutes ago, Man_of_X said:

Van Sciver has been know to shove his foot in his mouth on more than one occasion.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely just shitty fucking people whose opinion doesn't really matter.  The tough task trying to organically create diversity from hundreds of characters that were created when it was white city is fucking hard.

 

Now, excluding the above shitty people, what other people have a problem with is taking a character that has decades of history, fucking murdering them or killing them off in some form or fashion and then, wham, here's a brand new diverse character with legacy character's name.  This is not the way to do it, and quite frankly, it's fucking lazy.

 

It puts more pressure on creators to be extremely smart with how these characters are introduced.  Ms. Marvel was done perfectly.  Miles Morales Spider-Man was initially alternate universe, but is now in the main Marvel universe and he was done excellent as well.

 

If a replacement character also has a long history with the original, that can work well too.  Female Thor and Awesome Hulk were examples of this.

 

As it is, I don't have a single problem with getting the industry more diverse and reflective of real life, as long as they're doing it in a creative way.

 

 

Let's be real, comic do that shit all the time... how many Captain America's have there been? Or Green Lanterns? When John Stewart and Jim Rhodes replaced  Hal Jordan and Tony Stark respectively,  comic fans went along for the ride. Maybe there were some grumblings, but they were restricted to the letters page and without an echo chamber created by the internet,  those characters were allowed to develop and eventually become beloved characters who developed fans in their own right. Same with Monica Rambeau who became the first female Captain Marvel. Fans back the just read the books and judges the characters and stories on their merits... not today's entitled man babies who dismiss shit outright without even trying it first. X23's run as Wolverine and The Female Thor arc were two of the best things Marvel has done on recent times. The problem is fans didn't really give those books and characters a chance and saw any attempt at diversity as a threat despite the quality of the execution. Some fans may legitimately be bothered by characters being changed for whatever reason, but my thing with those "fans" is that they clearly don't know comics or haven't been reading long because comics have been doing this for as long as I can remember.  I don't even really understand what " forced diversity" even means... the world is diverse and comics should reflect that reality.

[Kal-El814]

“Forced diversity” is shitheels insisting that the inclusion of people of color, or LGBTQ characters, or non-Christian characters, or god forbid some combo of the above is pandering in the interest of sales. You know, as if ALL decisions in mainstream comics from Marvel and DC aren’t based on what they think is going to move books. 

[SimpleG]

18 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Let's be real, comic do that shit all the time... how many Captain America's have there been? Or Green Lanterns? When John Stewart and Jim Rhodes replaced  Hal Jordan and Tony Stark respectively,  comic fans went along for the ride. Maybe there were some grumblings, but they were restricted to the letters page and without an echo chamber created by the internet,  those characters were allowed to develop and eventually become beloved characters who developed fans in their own right. Same with Monica Rambeau who became the first female Captain Marvel. Fans back the just read the books and judges the characters and stories on their merits... not today's entitled man babies who dismiss shit outright without even trying it first. X23's run as Wolverine and The Female Thor arc were two of the best things Marvel has done on recent times. The problem is fans didn't really give those books and characters a chance and saw any attempt at diversity as a threat despite the quality of the execution. Some fans may legitimately be bothered by characters being changed for whatever reason, but my thing with those "fans" is that they clearly don't know comics or haven't been reading long because comics have been doing this for as long as I can remember.  I don't even really understand what " forced diversity" even means... the world is diverse and comics should reflect that reality.

Not sure why people are so opposed to the notion of gay ,lesbian or a race other then white. Those stories to me are vastly more interesting then young/middle age white male fights crime.

i would say I prefer they create new hero’s rather then rehash existing characters but only for the reason that it feels lazy and feels like a disservice to the new character. Not sure if this shitty but I would also prefer gay character be written by a gay person or a black character written by a black person. 

[Slug]

On 7/25/2018 at 8:16 PM, Reputator said:

Why does it feel like decades of social and politcal progress has been undone in just the last couple of years?

I don't know about being undone.  I think we're just witnessing a painfully slow death.  The feeling I get is that of watching someone about to drown in the ocean.  They're tired.  They know they're too far from the shore.  But rather than sink into the depths they struggle and fight in a panicked, doomed attempt to regain some kind of purchase on solid ground.  It may seem like taking steps backwards, but what we're really seeing is just the splashes and ripples caused by the desperate flailing of the lost before they're pulled under.

[skillzdadirecta]

6 minutes ago, Slug said:

I don't know about being undone.  I think we're just witnessing a painfully slow death.  The feeling I get is that of watching someone about to drown in the ocean.  They're tired.  They know they're too far from the shore.  But rather than sink into the depths they struggle and fight in a panicked, doomed attempt to regain some kind of purchase on solid ground.  It may seem like taking steps backwards, but what we're really seeing is just the splashes and ripples caused by the desperate flailing of the lost before they're pulled under.

Last gasps of the racist and intolerant? I'd like to think so...

[Hurdyb1]

It's crazy cause people actually belive comics adressing social issues, gender, diversity, and etc  is a new trend. Comics been doing this well before we were born and probably before some of this group's parents were born. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Hurdyb1 said:

It's crazy cause people actually belive comics adressing social issues, gender, diversity, and etc  is a new trend. Comics been doing this well before we were born and probably before some of this group's parents were born. 

 

 

I wonder if part of that comes from comics being seen as a “lesser” art form such that many of the creators of comic book icons were from marginalized groups, be they the poor or religious/ethnic/racial minorities.

[Hurdyb1]

12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

I wonder if part of that comes from comics being seen as a “lesser” art form such that many of the creators of comic book icons were from marginalized groups, be they the poor or religious/ethnic/racial minorities.

Good point. 

[Man_of_X]

21 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Let's be real, comic do that shit all the time... how many Captain America's have there been? Or Green Lanterns? When John Stewart and Jim Rhodes replaced  Hal Jordan and Tony Stark respectively,  comic fans went along for the ride. Maybe there were some grumblings, but they were restricted to the letters page and without an echo chamber created by the internet,  those characters were allowed to develop and eventually become beloved characters who developed fans in their own right. Same with Monica Rambeau who became the first female Captain Marvel. Fans back the just read the books and judges the characters and stories on their merits... not today's entitled man babies who dismiss shit outright without even trying it first. X23's run as Wolverine and The Female Thor arc were two of the best things Marvel has done on recent times. The problem is fans didn't really give those books and characters a chance and saw any attempt at diversity as a threat despite the quality of the execution. Some fans may legitimately be bothered by characters being changed for whatever reason, but my thing with those "fans" is that they clearly don't know comics or haven't been reading long because comics have been doing this for as long as I can remember.  I don't even really understand what " forced diversity" even means... the world is diverse and comics should reflect that reality.

 

I don't disagree in the slightest.  You've also given more good examples of the people replacing the legacy character having a good history with that character, so it makes sense.  X-23 as Wolverine, Jim Rhodes with Tony Stark.  I also enjoyed when Bucky took over for Captain America.

 

Hell, one of the most interesting stories in recent years was Superior Spider-Man.

 

I'm game for pretty much anything if it's well written and interesting.

[Hurdyb1]

3 hours ago, Man_of_X said:

 

 

I'm game for pretty much anything if it's well written and interesting.

THIS!!!!!!!

 

And for the most part, most of them are and have been written that way. I wonder how many of the vocal folks are constant and current readers? It seems to me that the loud haters don't read frequently but I am not naive to know that many folks just don't care for different color or gender legacy character, which has been done decades before. As we all know, legacy character may go away for a period for story telling purposes but they will never go away forever. 

[Hurdyb1]

And what I meant to say as well is that Superior Spider-Man was a great read and I think a very necessary shake up for the Spider-Man world at that point that was written with legacy in mind that could be enjoyed. And Jason Aaron's Thor between Jane as Thor and Unworthy Odindon was a phenomenal read. 

 

(I also met Jason Aaron when D1P was experiencing issues. The man is one cool as hell dude!!!! My son and him talked wrestling for about 4 mins, lol)

[Man_of_X]

38 minutes ago, Hurdyb1 said:

And what I meant to say as well is that Superior Spider-Man was a great read and I think a very necessary shake up for the Spider-Man world at that point that was written with legacy in mind that could be enjoyed. And Jason Aaron's Thor between Jane as Thor and Unworthy Odindon was a phenomenal read. 

 

(I also met Jason Aaron when D1P was experiencing issues. The man is one cool as hell dude!!!! My son and him talked wrestling for about 4 mins, lol)

 

You met Jason Aaron!  At a con?

 

That's awesome.  By my estimation, he's easily my favorite writer at Marvel right now.  That's why I'm on Avengers again. lol.

[Hurdyb1]

26 minutes ago, Man_of_X said:

 

You met Jason Aaron!  At a con?

 

That's awesome.  By my estimation, he's easily my favorite writer at Marvel right now.  That's why I'm on Avengers again. lol.

I met and talked to him along with Chris Claremont at the Chicago C2E2 in June a few weeks back. Chris is a real chatter box but he's so passionate. Jason Aaron though was really cool. I wasn't his biggest fan but after that experience  and just how he connected with son made me a huge fan.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

On 7/26/2018 at 2:11 PM, Man_of_X said:

Van Sciver has been know to shove his foot in his mouth on more than one occasion.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely just shitty fucking people whose opinion doesn't really matter.  The tough task trying to organically create diversity from hundreds of characters that were created when it was white city is fucking hard.

 

Now, excluding the above shitty people, what other people have a problem with is taking a character that has decades of history, fucking murdering them or killing them off in some form or fashion and then, wham, here's a brand new diverse character with legacy character's name.  This is not the way to do it, and quite frankly, it's fucking lazy.

 

It puts more pressure on creators to be extremely smart with how these characters are introduced.  Ms. Marvel was done perfectly.  Miles Morales Spider-Man was initially alternate universe, but is now in the main Marvel universe and he was done excellent as well.

 

If a replacement character also has a long history with the original, that can work well too.  Female Thor and Awesome Hulk were examples of this.

 

As it is, I don't have a single problem with getting the industry more diverse and reflective of real life, as long as they're doing it in a creative way.

 

 

I have a friend that is definitely more on the scale towards "racist". He hates the Ms. Marvel, Awesome Hulk, and female Thor, etc. 

 

He even took issue with Idris Elba as Heimdall, because he said in comics Heimdall is also known as "the pale god". 

 

These people are out there. He and some of his comics buddies believe that Marvel Comics is struggling because they are trying to force diversity into their books.  

[Remarkableriots]

19 hours ago, Hurdyb1 said:

THIS!!!!!!!

 

And for the most part, most of them are and have been written that way. I wonder how many of the vocal folks are constant and current readers? It seems to me that the loud haters don't read frequently but I am not naive to know that many folks just don't care for different color or gender legacy character, which has been done decades before. As we all know, legacy character may go away for a period for story telling purposes but they will never go away forever. 

I wish I could keep up with the comics but I just don't have the extra cash to do so. I want to see characters like Spider-Gwen, She-Hulk, female Thor,  Awesome Hulk and many others used in the MCU for upcoming phases. Looking forward to Captain Marvel in early 2019! I try to keep up with the characters reading the wikis and character bios. I need to get Marvel Unlimited again.

[Bacon]

I always thought comics were diverse on purpose. It shows that anyone can be a hero. I mean, sure there are a lot of white guys, but there were more non-white guys than in other media. Like, I didn't even know there was a white green lantern. I thought it was dumb that GL was white in the movie until I knew there were other green lanterns. 

 

Even if that isn't true, that was my perspective growing up. 

[TwinIon]

I think that especially when you take an existing character and change their race/religion/gender/etc. it's a lot like changing a superhero's powers or their origin story. You do it because it allows you to tell different stories within a familiar framework. It's not a wholesale replacement for creating new stories with those characteristics, it's just another tool one can use to try and tell a good story. I feel like a lot of the fan reaction to this kind of thing in comics and any other media comes from a place of wanting the same stories to be told again and again ad nauseum, and I personally find that boring.