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~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

Commissar SFLUFAN
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Chris-

Chris-

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55 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I’ve not seen it yet nor read any spoilers.

 

But taking a look at the impressions here and some of the reactions to The Mandalorian... it’s really strange to me that so many people want things to have such a solid trajectory. The Mandalorian should be going SOMEWHERE. The sequel trilogy is problematic because not everything was plotted IN ADVANCE.

 

And it sure seems like that kind of mentality is driving a lot of what happened in Rise of Skywalker.

 

Which is so bizarre to me because the most beloved Star Wars movie, Empire, generally ignores ALL of those impulses and it asks the audience to take a TREMENDOUS amount on faith. I feel it’s largely successful because of that. It sure seems like JJ felt compelled to put a bow on things and “end the saga,” which feels like such a weird take for a property that’s obviously going to continue.

 

For as entertaining as they might be, I well and truly think the popularity of properties like the MCU, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, etc., and the cottage industry of YouTube analysis they have inspired, has poisoned how people experience modern pop culture. Nothing matters more than driving plot, lore development and continuity are tantamount, and the audience demands to be given a reason to care as opposed to reaching a conclusion on their own.

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CitizenVectron

CitizenVectron

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People on Resetera are going crazy trying to rationalize the negative takes by critics. Some choice rationalizations include:

 

  • The critics overall liked TLJ, so they need to hate TROS to save TLJ
  • They pre-wrote harsh things to say because they wanted JJ to fail
  • This movie was made for TLJ haters, so it makes sense that anyone who liked TLJ would dislike it (despite the fact that TLJ was loved by audiances and critics alike)
  • Critics loved TLJ and it sucked, so therefore them disliking TROS means it is good

 

I wonder if, when they see the movie, these same people will see faults in it, or will they still attempt to rationalize it? Again, not saying that there is noithing to like about TROS (it sounds like it is well-shot and acted, and once again the Ben-Rey stuff is great), but generally speaking the earliest takes are the best...and the early takes so far have not been strong.

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1 minute ago, Chris- said:

 

For as entertaining as they might be, I well and truly think the popularity of properties like the MCU, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, etc., and the cottage industry of YouTube analysis they have inspired, has poisoned how people experience modern pop culture. Nothing matters more than driving plot, lore development and continuity are tantamount, and the audience demands to be given a reason to care as opposed to reaching a conclusion on their own.

 

I think this is true. Someone else summed it up well as (paraphrasing): "Movies are no longer something to be enjoyed, flaws included. They are now something to beat."

 

Personally I am more of a plot-driven person rather than character-driven. It's one reason why I know I dislike re-reading books, since I already know what is going to happen. But having said that, I also don't need to know everything about a backstory to appreciate something as long as the experience is good. I liked learning about the Emperor and who he was, but I didn't need to know that stuff to enjoy ROTJ, when all we knew was that he was the Emperor and was a bad guy. Maybe that's why I bought into Snoke, even as a non-important character. He had a purpose in the plot, and that is all that mattered. But for some people, it's not enough, every single thing needs to work perfectly together and explain everything else...which is neurotic.

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3 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I'll prolly like this more than TLJ, but not my much. I already hate the

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Spoiler

It doesn't even make sense. Her and Luke had a relationship, but it was short and rough. If anything, her taking the Solo name would have made more sense. Or Organa.

 

EDIT - Unrelated to the above spoilers: Say what you will about TLJ, but at least Johnson was brave enough to try and say something with his movie, and have a message that pushed into something new. JJ seems incapable of anything other than providing mystery boxes and callbacks to nostalgia. We shouldn't be surprised after his handling of the Star Trek reboots (especially Into Darkness).

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CitizenVectron

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Also, not sure if Rian intended it this way, but he may have just fired back at JJ after the months of sly comments by JJ towards TLJ/him:

 

 

Quote

“I think approaching any creative process with [making fandoms happy] would be a mistake that would lead to probably the exact opposite result,” Johnson said. “Even my experience as a fan, you know if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like ‘oh, okay,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me.”

 

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Bacon

Bacon

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2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:
Spoiler

It doesn't even make sense. Her and Luke had a relationship, but it was short and rough.

 

Spoiler

Well there was also her relationship with leia. Which I think is expanded upon. I mean, Leia is still a Skywalker by blood. So, her taking on the name of her masters isn't too bad, but I still don't like it. 

 

4 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:
Spoiler

If anything, her taking the Solo name would have made more sense.

 

I prefer this without having seen the movie, but I am still not a huge fan of this idea. 

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CitizenVectron

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1 minute ago, Bacon said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

I prefer this without having seen the movie, but I am still not a huge fan of this idea. 

 

Spoiler

Honestly, the best response would have been something like:

 

"Who are you?"

 

"No one important."

 

Have her accept the humility that Luke was teaching her in TLJ and accept that she can be good without having a title, without assuming any role.

 

 

 

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Chris-

Chris-

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I would also like to add that The Lord of the Rings - one of the most influential and cherished pop culture properties of all time - infamously committed some of these 'sins', including sections with no plot development and other sections where major characters literally go away for awhile to do other things.

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CitizenVectron

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24 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

 

 

It's sad that they just went back to being:

  • Rey - The Jedi good guy
  • Finn - The funny good guy
  • Poe - The brash good guy
  • Ben - The sexy bad guy (or good guy!?)

TLJ set it up soooo perfectly to explore their new arcs:

  • Rey - The fight to become a Jedi as we know it, or redefine what that means?
  • Finn - Losing the need to be a hero in the traditional sense (message at the end of the movie to him)
  • Poe - Becoming a mature leader of the Resistance who doesn't need to be a Man of Action to have value (violence and action aren't the only qualities of a hero)
  • Ben - Examining how an immature and unstable young leader behaves
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CitizenVectron

CitizenVectron

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9 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Rose isn't even a bad character at the core, just everything with her was bad. 

 

Exactly! Her message as a character was great!

  • Fight to save, not to kill
  • The little people matter too
  • Heroes aren't always as great as you believe

If you think the material wasn't great (I didn't mind it, but I understand the critiques), then just use her in a better way! But instead, the message of the new movie is "blowing up stuff saves the galaxy."

 

EDIT -

 

 

 

 

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Chris-

Chris-

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2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

It's sad that they just went back to being:

  • Rey - The Jedi good guy
  • Finn - The funny good guy
  • Poe - The brash good guy
  • Ben - The sexy bad guy (or good guy!?)

TLJ set it up soooo perfectly to explore their new arcs:

  • Rey - The fight to become a Jedi as we know it, or redefine what that means?
  • Finn - Losing the need to be a hero in the traditional sense (message at the end of the movie to him)
  • Poe - Becoming a mature leader of the Resistance who doesn't need to be a Man of Action to have value (violence and action aren't the only qualities of a hero)
  • Ben - Examining how an immature and unstable young leader behaves

 

 

 


But that would require fans to be challenged, and fans don’t want that. 

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Kal-El814

Kal-El814

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30 minutes ago, Chris- said:

For as entertaining as they might be, I well and truly think the popularity of properties like the MCU, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, etc., and the cottage industry of YouTube analysis they have inspired, has poisoned how people experience modern pop culture. Nothing matters more than driving plot, lore development and continuity are tantamount, and the audience demands to be given a reason to care as opposed to reaching a conclusion on their own.

Yeah that tracks. It’s a real bummer. I can’t imagine a show like The X-Files hanging in this environment, which is... fucking weird. It’s not THAT old.

 

Then again I guess stuff like NCIS is super popular and as far as I know, they don’t have super long arcs or a big plot overall?

 

12 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

 

The notion that this is being called a way “to end 42 years of storytelling” bums me the fuck out.

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Commissar SFLUFAN

Commissar SFLUFAN

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4 minutes ago, Chris- said:

But that would require fans to be challenged, and fans don’t want that. 

Rian Johnson Believes Movies Should “Challenge” Fans, Not Placate Them

Quote

Even my experience as a fan, you know, if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like, ‘Oh, okay,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me… I want to be shocked, I want to be surprised, I want to be thrown off-guard, I want to have things recontextualized, I want to be challenged as a fan when I sit down in the theater… What I’m aiming for every time I sit down in a theater is to have the experience with Empire Strikes Back, something that’s emotionally resonant and feels like it connects up and makes sense and really gets to the heart of what this thing is and in a way that I never could have seen coming.

 

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Anzo

Anzo

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I did not come away with the impression that JJ tried to undo anything that Rian did but maybe I’m bad at character analysis. He builds upon all of the force powers and relationships that Rian introduced in TLJ. 
 

yes Rose’s role was significantly reduced. They easily could have had her along with the big 3 and Chewie. 

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