Alabama Governor Fires Education Official over Wokeness

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

46 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

You’re so fundamentally wrong about this, and you refuse to accept it. 
 

There are zero women who can compete at the top levels of men’s sports. You can screen for size, weight, testosterone, or any other metrics, there is no fair competition for women when male athletes are involved. 
 

there are currently 250+ high school track athletes who can beat the women’s world record in almost every event.

 

we are stronger pound for pound by almost 30%, have bigger muscle bellies, higher red blood cell count, heart and lungs for better endurance and oxygen uptake into the bloodstream. We are superior athletes by almost every metric, speed, endurance, strength, body fat percentages. We created women’s sports because theres no place for them in men’s to fairly compete. And then theres contact sports….

 

It doesn’t matter if its only one medal, or only one scholarship, it’s not fair to the biological women competing for that spot after working their whole lives for it. 

All these electrons spilled and missing the next and more crucial point: what should the state do about it? The answer the fascists are more than willing to give, and have shown via the legislation they’re passing, is to police women’s bodies so we’re absolutely, positively, conclusively sure that no trans woman can compete with other women in any aspect of physical competition. As an added bonus this gives structure to make sure that women aren’t getting abortions! Win-win! 
 

But I’ll say this again: no trans person is transitioning so they can better compete in sport, it’s not something that is done, has not been done, and in all likelihood will ever be done. Years of therapy, hormone treatments, social transitioning, and thousands of dollars in medical costs, at minimum, just to win a “$10 trophy”? Get fucking real. This is an issue made up whole cloth to attack women generally, and trans women specifically, all so the right wing can take over and further hand power over to the wealthy. But hey at least we will have competition as pure as the white babies they want to protect in the womb. 

[skillzdadirecta]

It's also not just about Testosterone. Bone density and muscle mass play factors as well. I'm not saying that "The Bigots have a point" at all. I'm saying there are legit safety issues that go beyond "some women just losing some medals". I would like one of you guys to show me a woman, ANY woman that can compete safely on the offensive or defensive line in the NFL. Football isn't safe for MEN so why in god's name would you insert a woman into that sport? I think there was a female kicker at one point, but kickers don't experience a lot of contact.

 

I'm not trying to justify the bigots' argument because this isn't where they are coming from, but this issue, like a lot of others is a little more nuanced than both "sides" want to make it out to be. To be clear, I'm only talking about full contact sports. There ARE legit safety issues there. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Also guess what? Policing this requires a complete rewrite of civil rights laws! Laws which the right wing legal establishment fucking hates and has torn away at these laws for years in the judiciary! Bostock v Clayton county is what they’re fighting here, title 7 of the 1964 civil rights act!

 

they’re coming for everyone who isn’t like me, and the proof is right fucking here 

[Kal-El814]

Obviously individual competitors care about competition and want the playing field to be level, it would be disingenuous to claim otherwise. But that is absolutely not what the broader trans athlete panic is about at all and it's silly to pretend that it is.

 

Nobody here is a child, this is the same exact fucking playbook we've gone through during our lifetimes with gay rights.

 

If we let gay men and boys share locker rooms with straight men and boys, they won't be safe! Think of the opportunities for grooming! I'm not a hateful person I just don't think I should have to be in a position where someone might get their gay AIDS blood get on me during a match!

 

They they added a "fair play" formation to the playbook doesn't make any of their shit more legitimate.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

8 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

It's also not just about Testosterone. Bone density and muscle mass play factors as well. I'm not saying that "The Bigots have a point" at all. I'm saying there are legit safety issues that go beyond "some women just losing some medals". I would like one of you guys to show me a woman, ANY woman that can compete safely on the offensive or defensive in the NFL. Football isn't safe for MEN so why in god's name would you insert a woman into that sport? I think there was a female kicker at one point, but kickers don't experience a lot of contact.

 

I'm not trying to justify the bigots' argument because this isn't where they are coming from, but this issue, like a lot of others is a little more nuanced than both "sides" want to make it out to be. To be clear, I'm only talking about full contact sports. There ARE legit safety issues there. 

one would assume that in any contact sport there would be some practice, even 'non-contact' practice is fairly physical, where one would quickly realize that you were outmatched physically, but again, this isn't the issue here

 

[BloodyHell]

19 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

All these electrons spilled and missing the next and more crucial point: what should the state do about it? The answer the fascists are more than willing to give, and have shown via the legislation they’re passing, is to police women’s bodies so we’re absolutely, positively, conclusively sure that no trans woman can compete with other women in any aspect of physical competition. As an added bonus this gives structure to make sure that women aren’t getting abortions! Win-win! 
 

But I’ll say this again: no trans person is transitioning so they can better compete in sport, it’s not something that is done, has not been done, and in all likelihood will ever be done. Years of therapy, hormone treatments, social transitioning, and thousands of dollars in medical costs, at minimum, just to win a “$10 trophy”? Get fucking real. This is an issue made up whole cloth to attack women generally, and trans women specifically, all so the right wing can take over and further hand power over to the wealthy. But hey at least we will have competition as pure as the white babies they want to protect in the womb. 

I mean, we’re talking about completely different things.

it doesn’t matter why they transitioned, the fact is that transitioning comes with sacrifices, and one of those sacrifices should be that there is no place for them in competitive women’s sports.

 

Rec leagues? Absolutely, as long as they aren’t a danger to others (club boxing leagues and contact sports). Play as whatever gender you wish. 
 

And no, this isn’t like gay rights. Just because the right wing latched on to it, doesn’t mean the trans community is correct on the issue. There’s nothing unfair about a gay man competing against men, that was literal bigotry, it wasn’t about their abilities or advantages, it was because of their sexuality. Nobody is telling trans people they can’t compete because of who they sleep with. I hardly consider female athletes wanting to protect their sports and their position in them to be bigotry.
 

 

[BloodyHell]

6 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

one would assume that in any contact sport there would be some practice, even 'non-contact' practice is fairly physical, where one would quickly realize that you were outmatched physically, but again, this isn't the issue here

 

It’s weird how every legitimate concern “Isn’t the issue here”.

 

you don’t spar with a person before you fight them in the ring, that isn’t how combat sports work. You spar with teammates, not your upcoming opponent. You never touch them till fight night 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, BloodyHell said:

and one of those sacrifices should be that there is no place for them in competitive women’s sports.

See I don't agree with this because I think there are some sports that they can safely compete in where gender doesn't necessarily matter. Basketball for one. That is much more of a skill and endurance game and in some cases a woman might have the advantage if she's quicker. Again... this is a nuanced argument and should be treated as such.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, we’re talking about completely different things.

it doesn’t matter why they transitioned, the fact is that transitioning comes with sacrifices, and one of those sacrifices should be that there is no place for them in competitive women’s sports.

 

Rec leagues? Absolutely, as long as they aren’t a danger to others (club boxing leagues and contact sports). Play as whatever gender you wish. 
 

And no, this isn’t like gay rights. Just because the right wing latched on to it, doesn’t mean the trans community is correct on the issue. There’s nothing unfair about a gay man competing against men, that was literal bigotry, it wasn’t about their abilities or advantages, it was because of their sexuality. Nobody is telling trans people they can’t compete because of who they sleep with. I hardly consider women wanting to protect their sports and their position in them to be bigotry.
 

 

yeah and how do you determine who is trans, and thus ineligible for competition, and who is not? do we keep a list or registry? can an opposing coach request 'proof' that a more dominate player 'prove' their gender? how invasive does the state or private organization need to be so that a vast, vast minority of people are ineligible to compete?

 

like you're so close to getting it but you don't see the ramifications of what you're advocating

[Jason]

7 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

one would assume that in any contact sport there would be some practice, even 'non-contact' practice is fairly physical, where one would quickly realize that you were outmatched physically, but again, this isn't the issue here

 

The fact that the chuds have people arguing about the deep nuances of a total niche edge case as though it's the meat of the issue is evidence that the chuds are winning on this.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

yeah and how do you determine who is trans, and thus ineligible for competition, and who is not? do we keep a list or registry? can an opposing coach request 'proof' that a more dominate player 'prove' their gender? how invasive does the state or private organization need to be so that a vast, vast minority of people are ineligible to compete?

 

like you're so close to getting it but you don't see the ramifications of what you're advocating

Dude they do that NOW. The NCAA has established rules with hormone thresholds and stuff. Other sports governing agencies have as well.

 

Transgender Student-Athlete Participation Policy

WWW.NCAA.ORG

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Transgender Student-Athlete Participation Policy Updated 4/17/2023 to provide increased clarity

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

4 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

It’s weird how every legitimate concern “Isn’t the issue here”.

it's almost like its a deeper issue than "man strong, woman weak and can't compete, it's too dangerous or unfair" like there aren't legitimate and more important legal questions about the basis for this moral panic. Both from "who" is proposing solutions, and "what" the solutions are

[BloodyHell]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

yeah and how do you determine who is trans, and thus ineligible for competition, and who is not? do we keep a list or registry? can an opposing coach request 'proof' that a more dominate player 'prove' their gender? how invasive does the state or private organization need to be so that a vast, vast minority of people are ineligible to compete?

 

like you're so close to getting it but you don't see the ramifications of what you're advocating

I mean, once uou make the rule, its on the trans athlete to follow thr rules and not compete in a league they aren’t entitled to.

 

but also, birth certificates list birth sex. Let’s not pretend this is difficult, nobody is mistaking Lia Thomas for a biological woman. There are definitely more difficult cases, but birth certificates are the simplest answer. We had to carry them to hockey tournaments often growing up.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

Dude they do that NOW. The NCAA has established rules with hormone thresholds and stuff. Other sports governing agencies have as well.

 

Transgender Student-Athlete Participation Policy

WWW.NCAA.ORG

---

Transgender Student-Athlete Participation Policy Updated 4/17/2023 to provide increased clarity

 

sounds like the debate is settled by the respective expert agencies, why are we discussing this again?

 

it's because it's a moral panic to attack trans people

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

sounds like the debate is settled by the respective expert agencies, why are we discussing this again?

 

it's because it's a moral panic to attack trans people

Honestly I have no idea why or how this came up in this topic 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, once uou make the rule, its on the trans athlete to follow thr rules and not compete in a league they aren’t entitled to.

 

but also, birth certificates list birth sex. Let’s not pretend this is difficult, nobody is mistaking Lia Thomas for a biological woman. There are definitely more difficult cases, but birth certificates are the simplest answer. We had to carry them to hockey tournaments often growing up.

 

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

sounds like the debate is settled by the respective expert agencies, why are we discussing this again?

 

it's because it's a moral panic to attack trans people

sounds like there are rules, so why is this such a big issue

[Guest]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Honestly I have no idea why or how this came up in this topic 

 

Just blame it on me 

[BloodyHell]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

 

sounds like there are rules, so why is this such a big issue

Because those rules allowed an athlete like Lia Thomas, a middling male swimmer (at that level) to go from 400+ ranked male to a top 5 female swimmer. It’s evidence that the rules weren’t working.

[finaljedi]

28 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

It's also not just about Testosterone. Bone density and muscle mass play factors as well. I'm not saying that "The Bigots have a point" at all. I'm saying there are legit safety issues that go beyond "some women just losing some medals". I would like one of you guys to show me a woman, ANY woman that can compete safely on the offensive or defensive line in the NFL. Football isn't safe for MEN so why in god's name would you insert a woman into that sport? I think there was a female kicker at one point, but kickers don't experience a lot of contact.

 

I'm not trying to justify the bigots' argument because this isn't where they are coming from, but this issue, like a lot of others is a little more nuanced than both "sides" want to make it out to be. To be clear, I'm only talking about full contact sports. There ARE legit safety issues there. 

 

I don't think this will be a problem in general.  Most sports have tryouts and I'm guessing most women and transmen won't be making the cut on an NFL team.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, BloodyHell said:

Because those rules allowed an athlete like Lia Thomas, a middling male swimmer (at that level) to go from 400+ ranked male to a top 5 female swimmer. It’s evidence that the rules weren’t working.

so we need to have the government weigh in and modify civil rights laws (the actual effect of what you're advocating) because of one person? it's not like this is opening the floodgates, trans people are a very, very small minority of the overall population, even if all trans people were accepted by society.

 

this sounds like an issue for the NCAA to figure out, not the Ohio/Alabama/Florida/Idaho State Legislatures.

[Amazatron]

14 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

See I don't agree with this because I think there are some sports that they can safely compete in where gender doesn't necessarily matter. Basketball for one. That is much more of a skill and endurance game and in some cases a woman might have the advantage if she's quicker. Again... this is a nuanced argument and should be treated as such.

Safely play maybe, but come on, Caitlin Clark, a generational basketball talent, wouldn’t crack a rotation of a D1 men’s basketball team.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, Amazatron said:

Safely play maybe, but come on, Caitlin Clark, a generational basketball talent, wouldn’t crack a rotation of a D1 men’s basketball team.

[BloodyHell]

11 minutes ago, finaljedi said:

 

I don't think this will be a problem in general.  Most sports have tryouts and I'm guessing most women and transmen won't be making the cut on an NFL team.

Not in that direction, but it is in the opposite. There’s no world where biological men should be in women’s mma, boxing, hockey, etc.

 

24 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

See I don't agree with this because I think there are some sports that they can safely compete in where gender doesn't necessarily matter. Basketball for one. That is much more of a skill and endurance game and in some cases a woman might have the advantage if she's quicker. Again... this is a nuanced argument and should be treated as such.

im personally talking about the highest levels of competition. I don’t care about rec leagues, or competitive sports below the HS level. 
 

I mean, I know you know better than to think any player in the WNBA could compete in the NBA?

but get an NBA player’s testosterone down to those levels, and they will dominate women’s sports.

 

I do agree no sane person is transitioning just to win a trophy, nobody is arguing that. But there needs to be limits to protect women’s sports. They work their whole lives for those very few spots on college teams. It IS their life, and they have a right to protect that hard work 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

4 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Not in that direction, but it is in the opposite. There’s no world where biological men should be in women’s mma, boxing, hockey, etc.

 

im personally talking about the highest levels of competition. I don’t care about rec leagues, or competitive sports below the HS level. 
 

I mean, I know you know better than to think any player in the WNBA could compete in the NBA?

but get an NBA player’s testosterone down to those levels, and they will dominate women’s sports.

 

I do agree no sane person is transitioning just to win a trophy, nobody is arguing that. But there needs to be limits to protect women’s sports. They work their whole lives for those very few spots on college teams. It US their life, and they have a right to protect that hard work 

do the newly updated NCAA rules not do this? what specifically are you concerned about? and where and why does the power of the state need to intervene?

[BloodyHell]

14 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

do the newly updated NCAA rules not do this? what specifically are you concerned about? and where and why does the power of the state need to intervene?

I don’t necessarily think the state should intervene, and I absolutely agree that state intervention always goes too far. 
 

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but you guys handwaving it away as not a problem is wrong. 
 

I think as far as competition, you should compete as your birth sex. That’s my opinion, and that’s what I think the NCAA and other governing bodies should do. 
 

I do understand that even when the GOP has a point, theres also going to be hate behind it. But that doesn’t mean everyone who shares that concern should abandon it because the GOP is hateful.

 

Hell, Riley Gaines was held hostage for three hours for speaking out against this, female swimmers had to have their identities hidden on news programs because they were warned speaking up would get them kicked off their teams. Lets not pretend the extremes on either side are arguing in good faith. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, BloodyHell said:

I don’t necessarily think the state should intervene, and I absolutely agree that state intervention always goes too far. 
 

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but you guys handwaving it away as not a problem is wrong. 

lol you're hand-waiving the solution (appropriate governing bodies issuing regulations and guidance) away in favor of the method (GOP legislatures intervening in bad faith) that gets your preferred policy outcome (bio sex determines where you play).

 

like no one at all, ever, has all the answers, but I can see the consequences of these paths forward:

one is a deliberative process to find rules around these tricky questions on a sport by sport basis, even if you don't like the outcome

the other is rule by partisan fiat over a sudden and bad faith concern for the sanctity of all women's sports in a blanket fashion in an effort to attack trans people writ large

 

you may not like the terms of the engagement but this is where we're at. 

 

[Guest]

In regards to the question of what would a person do to win at an athletic competition, I present exhibit A

 

Olympic scandals: The revolting Spanish sham at the 2000 Sydney Paralympic Games

CA.SPORTS.YAHOO.COM

---

A few weeks after Spain’s victory in the basketball tournament for the mentally disabled, an undercover journalist revealed the unthinkable: 10 of the 12 sacred players were in fact… not truly...

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Quote

Worse yet, the journalist confirmed on the same occasion that a total of ten players (out of twelve) on the Spanish team had faked a mental handicap to participate in the competition. According to him, this shameless cheating had been because exams were not very rigorous. As reported by the Huffington Post, Ribagorda noted that “in terms of a medical exam, he only had to have his blood pressure taken after doing six push-ups.”

this is exactly the same as a years long gender transition process thank you

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

this is exactly the same as a years long gender transition process thank you

You just argued for a half a page to BH that verifying anything relating to the sex of the participants would be a massive civil rights issue requiring laws to be rewritten, meaning you favor self ID as the standard. Soooo, yes, under your standard, a loser dude could just pretend to be trans and go compete just like these loser dudes went and claimed to be intellectually disabled to go compete.

 

This is the problem with the refusal to stipulate to anything the bad guys say out of principle. You end up holding to incomprehensible positions on an issue that is honestly very minor (where trans athletes fit into competitive sport) compared to major issues like workplace or housing discrimination.

 

This is why the very marginal issue of trans athletics will continue to come up over and over despite women’s athletics as a whole being largely irrelevant to the vast majority of people who discuss it in the context of trans participation!

[skillzdadirecta]

32 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

In regards to the question of what would a person do to win at an athletic competition, I present exhibit A

 

Olympic scandals: The revolting Spanish sham at the 2000 Sydney Paralympic Games

CA.SPORTS.YAHOO.COM

---

A few weeks after Spain’s victory in the basketball tournament for the mentally disabled, an undercover journalist revealed the unthinkable: 10 of the 12 sacred players were in fact… not truly...

 

Did this inspire that South Park episode where Eric Cartman did this very thing???

[Guest]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Did this inspire that South Park episode where Eric Cartman did this very thing???

Not sure. It’s just my all time favorite sports scandal and it makes me LOL every time I think about it. Just incredible what people are willing to do to win in sports.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

You just argued for a half a page to BH that verifying anything relating to the sex of the participants would be a massive civil rights issue requiring laws to be rewritten, meaning you favor self ID as the standard. Soooo, yes, under your standard, a loser dude could just pretend to be trans and go compete just like these loser dudes went and claimed to be intellectually disabled to go compete.

 

This is the problem with the refusal to stipulate to anything the bad guys say out of principle. You end up holding to incomprehensible positions on an issue that is honestly very minor (where trans athletes fit into competitive sport) compared to major issues like workplace or housing discrimination.

 

This is why the very marginal issue of trans athletics will continue to come up over and over despite women’s athletics as a whole being largely irrelevant to the vast majority of people who discuss it in the context of trans participation!

 turns out with new information (governing bodies like the NCAA having sport by sport policies, I didn’t know this, as I don’t follow women’s sports) I’ve changed my stance to match something more akin to that. But while you may not see the difference here, state action by republicans is not even remotely close to that. 
 

nice try on the gotcha though 
 

[CitizenVectron]

3 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

You’re so fundamentally wrong about this, and you refuse to accept it. 
 

There are zero women who can compete at the top levels of men’s sports. You can screen for size, weight, testosterone, or any other metrics, there is no fair competition for women when male athletes are involved. 
 

there are currently 250+ high school track athletes who can beat the women’s world record in almost every event.

 

we are stronger pound for pound by almost 30%, have bigger muscle bellies, higher red blood cell count, heart and lungs for better endurance and oxygen uptake into the bloodstream. We are superior athletes by almost every metric, speed, endurance, strength, body fat percentages. We created women’s sports because theres no place for them in men’s to fairly compete. And then theres contact sports….

 

It doesn’t matter if its only one medal, or only one scholarship, it’s not fair to the biological women competing for that spot after working their whole lives for it. 

 

You're arguing small details when it comes to a larger issue. There are people who have transitioned when they were quite young, and wouldn't have those advantages, so why the ban for them? Etc. It's just not an issue at all, compared to the rights issue.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Also are you implying that people will fraudulently change their gender for a competition with lower stakes than the hundreds of thousands of dollars the Spanish state was paying special Olympics athletes?

[CitizenVectron]

35 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Not sure. It’s just my all time favorite sports scandal and it makes me LOL every time I think about it. Just incredible what people are willing to do to win in sports.

 

All the greater argument to eliminate competitive sport completely, including any financial incentives to hold it and compete in it.