Joe Biden beats Donald Trump, officially making Trump a one-term twice impeached, twice popular-vote losing president

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

42 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Will it tho

As I've been told about other candidates, what makes Biden entitled to Bernie's voters? There's a huge contingent of young voters, who see that either a Biden or Trump presidency would not bring any meaningful change to their lives, as they still would be looking at a lifetime of debt for education, a health insurance system that can bankrupt them, housing they will never be able to afford, and a planet going up in flames either way. I don't think they're entirely wrong, but there are other ways Biden would be better than Trump. But there is that very real sentiment.

 

A failure to grapple with this not only threatens this election unnecessarily, but threatens the future if the party by allowing the right to coopt some popular but low hanging material interests. Thinking something like "Medicare for all who have a job" paid for in large part with like a cigarette or alcohol tax, or something equally regressive, or major tax breaks for corporations who pay off student debt of their employees (who can then be essentially forced to work at that company for 5+ years or be forced to pay the company all that money back. Think indentured servitude). 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

There's a huge contingent of young voters, who see that either a Biden or Trump presidency would not bring any meaningful change to their lives, as they still would be looking at a lifetime of debt for education, a health insurance system that can bankrupt them, housing they will never be able to afford, and a planet going up in flames either way. 

But a Sanders presidency won’t fix those things either

[johnny]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

But a Sanders presidency won’t fix those things either

So lets elect the worse candidate! 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

But a Sanders presidency won’t fix those things either

It's the best chance to actually shift the overton window and move public officials toward action, and not precompromising yourself back to the right.

 

As opposed to a guy who has no sympathy, his words, towards young people.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

25 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

But a Sanders presidency won’t fix those things either

As an addendum, see this completely fictional example as well

 

 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I’ll be a single issue voter, regarding judicial appointments. 
 

Let’s not pretend Trump and Biden are equally bad. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I’ll be a single issue voter, regarding judicial appointments. 
 

Let’s not pretend Trump and Biden are equally bad. 

(This is the sign of a broken system)

 

But no one has said as much

[thewhyteboar]

If Biden is elected he will be fine. But he won't do the work to improve American society the way it needs to be improved. So in 2024, voters will be dissatisfied and will elect a Republican who will be just as evil and racist as Trump, but in a slicker and more palatable package. Break the cycle. Pray that Bernie can win this.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, johnny said:

So lets elect the worse candidate! 

That is literally the idea here though, that a worse candidate (Trump) May as well be elected because those things won’t happen if a better candidate (Biden) is elected. Presidents do many other things of consequence, but choosing to sit things out because those issues won’t get fixed when they won’t get fixed under a Sanders presidency is non-sense.

 

11 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

It's the best chance to actually shift the overton window and move public officials toward action, and not precompromising yourself back to the right.

 

As opposed to a guy who has no sympathy, his words, towards young people.

 

The Overton window shifting doesn’t happen because of politicians though. They are simply bound by it. Sanders getting 40% or so of the vote the last two Dem primaries and the inclusion of Medicare For All as a common talking point in Dem politics shows the Overton Window has already begun shifting.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said:

If Biden is elected he will be fine. But he won't do the work to improve American society the way it needs to be improved. So in 2024, voters will be dissatisfied and will elect a Republican who will be just as evil and racist as Trump, but in a slicker and more palatable package. Break the cycle. Pray that Bernie can win this.

 

As I said a few days ago:

On 3/4/2020 at 8:42 AM, SFLUFAN said:

In the unlikely event that The Sundowner wins in November, I can only imagine the razor sharp, articulate, presentable, absolutely terrifying, actual fascist that the GOP will find by 2024 after muddling through the four years of political, economic, social, and moral malaise that will be the Biden administration.

 

Congratulations, Josh Hawley - your time will have arrived.

 

[thewhyteboar]

Josh Hawley with Nikki Haley as VP. Gorka and his massive noggin as Sec Def. Tucker Carlson as press secretary. Newt Gingrich as Imperial Governor of Luna.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

18 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

(This is the sign of a broken system)

 

But no one has said as much

I think we all know this. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I’ll be a single issue voter, regarding judicial appointments. 
 

Let’s not pretend Trump and Biden are equally bad. 

This is more logical than healthcare and climate change because this is actually something the POTUS directly affects, and has an impact on a wide range of issues indirectly.

[Anathema-]

There's more ways to encourage youth turnout than binding the whole party to radical leftism.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Radical leftism rofl ok Tucker Carlson

 

Again, I wish Bernie was as radical as you people think he is.

[Anathema-]

21 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Radical leftism rofl ok Tucker Carlson

 

Again, I wish Bernie was as radical as you people think he is.

 

"Radical for America" is really all that matters here, you can take your mortarboard off.

[Anathema-]

 

something something fake news

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

8 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

 

something something fake news

That's literally him saying he'd veto it but with a word salad of qualifiers.

 

10 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

 

"Radical for America" is really all that matters here, you can take your mortarboard off.

What's so radical about it and why is that a bad thing?

[Comet]

3 hours ago, Anathema- said:

There's more ways to encourage youth turnout than binding the whole party to radical leftism.

You say this as if the left has found any meaningful and/or reliable way to do this. 

[SaysWho?]

I feel like many Democrats think politics is just a game in regards to getting a bunch of D's into office and not really concerned about actually helping people. That's why Republican talking points filter into their lexicon and they don't seem to have any vision of what they want in the US. 

[SaysWho?]

With that critique out of the way, I'm not actually expecting Bernie to do that well in Michigan. What I'm reading from pollsters makes a lot of sense: Michigan's 2016 primary polling was way off for Democrats, but there hadn't been a competitive primary to poll in many years. Michigan had caucuses in 2000 and 2004. Obama and Edwards weren't on the ballot in 2008. Obama was an incumbent in 2012. So who you poll, who likely voters are, that stuff is murkier and less certain. Now that they gauged the primary electorate in 2016, they have a much better idea who will vote in 2020 when they poll people.

 

My expectation is Sanders isn't getting another 20+ point polling error. And while I'll put my ballot in for Sanders anyway later this week, I expect the race to just about be over (maybe he'll stay for the debate/next Tuesday) if Biden routs him in Michigan. We'll see tonight.

[skillzdadirecta]

8 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

I feel like many Democrats think politics is just a game in regards to getting a bunch of D's into office and not really concerned about actually helping people. That's why Republican talking points filter into their lexicon. 

Really? Because I feel like a lot of "progressives" are more interested in winning arguments and not elections... which have CONSEQUENCES. It's a luxury to be able to say "I'll sit this election out because my guy didn't get the nomination and I'll try again in four years." Meanwhile The Right regains power, and undos what little progress HAS been made and shifts the country further to the right and the circle repeats. 

[SaysWho?]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Really? Because I feel like a lot of "progressives" are more interested in winning a debate and not an election... which has CONSEQUENCES. It's a luxury to be able to say "I'll sit this election out because my guy didn't get the nomination and I'll try again in four years." Meanwhile The Right regains power, and undos what little progress HAS been made and shifts the country further to the right and the circle repeats. 

 

Yes, really. Progressives are interested in issues. Issues need to be debated. How many Never Bernie voters are there who are the angels you're describing? Tons, but if you're only focused on the "Bernie Bros," you'll miss what's right in front of you.

 

Let's not pretend that the right regaining power happened under progressives' watch. It happened under Obama/Biden. Elections have consequences, and we've seen them play out horribly for Democrats who follow your line of thinking.

[skillzdadirecta]

12 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Yes, really. Progressives are interested in issues. Issues need to be debated.

 

Let's not pretend that the right regaining power happened under progressives' watch. It happened under Obama/Biden. Elections have consequences, and we've seen them play out horribly for Democrats who follow your line of thinking.

 

Have we? My line of thinking is to support the nominee even if it's not my preferred guy not take my ball and go home when I don't get everything I want. That's my line of thinking. If I thought that Bernie not only could win in the general, but that he could actually accomplish ONE THIRD of what he's promising I would be more enthusiastic about is candidacy. But this primary season is turning out pretty much the way I thought it would so far and if he's having trouble beating Joe Biden who was basically out of money before South Carolina and wasn't and still isn't attacking him directly, how would he do against Trump in the general? I'm not convinced that ANY of these candidates can beat Trump, but I have always believed that of this crop? Biden had the best chance for a bunch of reasons.

 

As far as the issues... you think elections in this country are won on issues? I thought we established several pages back that most folks have NO IDEA what the issues are much less what their personal positions on those issues are. I would think that the composition of the Supreme Court ALONE would be enough for the Progressive left to fight tooth and nail to not lose this election but I haven't even seen the issue come up from the Bernie side of things. Mostly what I'm hearing is how terrible the rest of the Democratic party is. Interesting strategy to gain support.

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Have we? My line of thinking is to support the nominee even if it's not my preferred guy not take my ball and go home when I don't get everything I want. That's my line of thinking. If I thought that Bernie not only could win in the general, but that he could actually accomplish ONE THIRD of what he's promising I would be more enthusiastic about is candidacy. But this primary season is turning out pretty much the way I thought it would so far and if he's having trouble beating Joe Biden who was basically out of money before South Carolina and wasn't and still isn't attacking him directly, how would he do against Trump in the general? I'm not convinced that ANY of these candidates can beat Trump, but I have always believed that of this crop? Biden had the best chance for a bunch of reasons.

 

As far as the issues... you think elections in this country are won on issues? I thought we established several pages back that most folks have NO IDEA what the issues are much less what their personal positions on those issues are. I would think that the composition of the Supreme Court ALONE would be enough for the Progressive left to fight tooth and nail to not lose this election but I haven't even seen the issue come up from the Bernie side of things. Mostly what I'm hearing is how terrible the rest of the Democratic party is. Interesting strategy to gain support.

 

I do love it when people talk to me like I don't vote straight Democratic every election after the primaries are over. 

[SaysWho?]

  

12 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Have we? My line of thinking is to support the nominee even if it's not my preferred guy not take my ball and go home when I don't get everything I want. That's my line of thinking. If I thought that Bernie not only could win in the general, but that he could actually accomplish ONE THIRD of what he's promising I would be more enthusiastic about is candidacy. But this primary season is turning out pretty much the way I thought it would so far and if he's having trouble beating Joe Biden who was basically out of money before South Carolina and wasn't and still isn't attacking him directly, how would he do against Trump in the general? I'm not convinced that ANY of these candidates can beat Trump, but I have always believed that of this crop? Biden had the best chance for a bunch of reasons.

 

As far as the issues... you think elections in this country are won on issues? I thought we established several pages back that most folks have NO IDEA what the issues are much less what their personal positions on those issues are. I would think that the composition of the Supreme Court ALONE would be enough for the Progressive left to fight tooth and nail to not lose this election but I haven't even seen the issue come up from the Bernie side of things. Mostly what I'm hearing is how terrible the rest of the Democratic party is. Interesting strategy to gain support.

 

Let's go further. Your premise is straight-up not supported by any overwhelming evidence. We know a quarter of Hillary voters went to McCain. We know #NeverBernie people exist in high numbers, as I've been on both ends of the attack. How many black Americans sat out in 2016 who weren't progressive at all? Nobody blames them. They literally tell reporters that they haven't seen any improvements, Hillary sucked, I didn't vote, I might have even voted for Trump, but you blame progressives? Woosh.

 

It's so easy to blame progressives and punch down, and blame them when the Democratic Party consistently shuns and ostracizes them, picks people who are "electable" like Kerry which leads to Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court, and loses nearly all their power nationwide into 2016.

 

Progressives aren't the ones stifling progress; they're pretty much the ones always ahead of the Democrats on issues as the apparently centrist Democrats eventually adopt the position that was apparently "far-left" at one point when they randomly decided it was far-left just because. If you want to know who's giving you Alito, Gorsuch, Roberts and Kavanaugh, maybe blame the moderates who sat out. Maybe blame the ineffectual un-progressive Democratic leadership.

 

It'd be a lot easier for them to have a positive view of the Democratic Party as a whole if they felt welcomed, like their votes weren't taken for granted, and that while someone may not agree 100% with them, their views are made to help people and compromise would be best served between moderate and progressive Democrats.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

16 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Have we? My line of thinking is to support the nominee even if it's not my preferred guy not take my ball and go home when I don't get everything I want. That's my line of thinking. If I thought that Bernie not only could win in the general, but that he could actually accomplish ONE THIRD of what he's promising I would be more enthusiastic about is candidacy. But this primary season is turning out pretty much the way I thought it would so far and if he's having trouble beating Joe Biden who was basically out of money before South Carolina and wasn't and still isn't attacking him directly, how would he do against Trump in the general? I'm not convinced that ANY of these candidates can beat Trump, but I have always believed that of this crop? Biden had the best chance for a bunch of reasons.

 

As far as the issues... you think elections in this country are won on issues? I thought we established several pages back that most folks have NO IDEA what the issues are much less what their personal positions on those issues are. I would think that the composition of the Supreme Court ALONE would be enough for the Progressive left to fight tooth and nail to not lose this election but I haven't even seen the issue come up from the Bernie side of things. Mostly what I'm hearing is how terrible the rest of the Democratic party is. Interesting strategy to gain support.

Two things, in addition to what sayswho said, what if the Democratic party is terrible? only in comparison to the fascists on the right do they even look decent. 

 

And also related, the centrists are uninspiring and even in the purely performative act that is presidential policy positions, they come up with complicated hot garbage.

 

Going back to your first paragraph, it is possible that Bernie is a better general election candidate than he is a democratic party primary candidate, but that's not how we do things.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

This is a liability but remember Bernie hasn't been vetted

[Joe]

I wish we could combine Bernie's ideology with Biden's coalition building skills. I have hope maybe AOC is that person. For now, I will vote Bernie in June because fuck the right in this country. 

[skillzdadirecta]

25 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I do love it when people talk to me like I don't vote straight Democratic every election after the primaries are over. 

Dude, I'm not addressing any of what I said at you directly and I'm not making this personal despite the subtle digs you threw at me. I don't know your history and didn't presume that I did. YOU'RE the one that told my what my line of thinking was.

[SaysWho?]

Just now, Jose said:

I wish we could combine Bernie's ideology with Biden's coalition building skills. I have hope maybe AOC is that person. For now, I will vote Bernie in June because fuck the right in this country. 

 

Kind of where I am. I'm still making my voice heard, but unless polls inexplicably have the same unique problems the 2016 Michigan polls did, I expect Biden to do very well tonight and next week. And really... it just is what it is. I have one vote in one state and can't dramatically change an entire country's view. 

[skillzdadirecta]

14 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Two things, in addition to what sayswho said, what if the Democratic party is terrible? only in comparison to the fascists on the right do they even look decent. 

 

Umm no shit... which is why most folks I know always approach these elections as a choice between two evils and choosing the lesser one.

 

Quote

And also related, the centrists are uninspiring and even in the purely performative act that is presidential policy positions, they come up with complicated hot garbage.

 

Not arguing there... but why isn't Bernie winning then? He can't even make the money argument because Biden beat him in states where he was not only outspent by Bernie, he didn't even campaign there.

 

Quote

Going back to your first paragraph, it is possible that Bernie is a better general election candidate than he is a democratic party primary candidate, but that's not how we do things.

It's possible, but at this point what are you basing this on? Bernie is losing to Biden across a WIDE RANGE of Demographics in these primary contests so how does that translate to him being a better general elections candidate exactly? I'm not being sarcastic.

 

And also are we writing Bernie off at this point? Joe has momentum but is it really a foregone conclusion at this point?

[SaysWho?]

11 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Dude, I'm not addressing any of what I said at you directly and I'm not making this personal despite the subtle digs you threw at me. I don't know your history and didn't presume that I did. YOU'RE the one that told my what my line of thinking was.

 

I wasn't being subtle:

 

33 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

  

 

Let's go further. Your premise is straight-up not supported by any overwhelming evidence. We know a quarter of Hillary voters went to McCain. We know #NeverBernie people exist in high numbers, as I've been on both ends of the attack. How many black Americans sat out in 2016 who weren't progressive at all? Nobody blames them. They literally tell reporters that they haven't seen any improvements, Hillary sucked, I didn't vote, I might have even voted for Trump, but you blame progressives? Woosh.

 

It's so easy to blame progressives and punch down, and blame them when the Democratic Party consistently shuns and ostracizes them, picks people who are "electable" like Kerry which leads to Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court, and loses nearly all their power nationwide into 2016.

 

Progressives aren't the ones stifling progress; they're pretty much the ones always ahead of the Democrats on issues as the apparently centrist Democrats eventually adopt the position that was apparently "far-left" at one point when they randomly decided it was far-left just because. If you want to know who's giving you Alito, Gorsuch, Roberts and Kavanaugh, maybe blame the moderates who sat out. Maybe blame the ineffectual un-progressive Democratic leadership.

 

It'd be a lot easier for them to have a positive view of the Democratic Party as a whole if they felt welcomed, like their votes weren't taken for granted, and that while someone may not agree 100% with them, their views are made to help people and compromise would be best served between moderate and progressive Democrats.

 

I'm being direct that your line of thinking of blaming progressives is not borne out by the facts. Maybe blame the moderates who didn't vote, or the ineffectual Democratic leadership which has a bad track record of maintaining power in recent decades. They thought Kerry was electable, and now you have Roberts and Alito for a while. 

 

You punch down at a group that's constantly ostracized by the brilliant Democratic leadership.

[skillzdadirecta]

11 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I wasn't being subtle:

 

 

I'm being direct that your line of thinking of blaming progressives is not borne out by the facts. Maybe blame the moderates who didn't vote, or the ineffectual Democratic leadership which has a bad track record of maintaining power in recent decades. They thought Kerry was electable, and now you have Roberts and Alito for a while. 

 

You punch down at a group that's constantly ostracized by the brilliant Democratic leadership.

 

You're arguing against a point that I'm not even making... I'm not blaming Progressives for the Dems or Hillary losing. I don't even know where that idea is coming from. I've blamed a WHOLE HOST of reasons for Hillary losing and progressives sitting the election out isn't even in my top ten. What I'm criticizing progressives for is not supporting their guy when it counts. If Bernie is the best choice the why isn't that showing at the polls? There seems to be a distinct disconnect between the fervor of his supporters online and what happens at the polls. Bernie's whole argument was that he could mobilize the youth vote and build a coalition of working class folks, minorities and progressives to beat Trump and usher in a new age in this country. Why isn't that happening? 

 

And thanks for the clarification.. I'm not trying to get into any personal back and forths with you or anybody else here so if that's where this conversation is heading, I'll bow out now 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

25 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Umm no shit... which is why most folks I know always approach these elections as a choice between two evils and choosing the lesser one.

 

 

Not arguing there... but why isn't Bernie winning then? He can't even make the money argument because Biden beat him in states where he was not only outspent by Bernie, he didn't even campaign there.

 

It's possible, but at this point what are you basing this on? Bernie is losing to Biden across a WIDE RANGE of Demographics in these primary contests so how does that translate to him being a better general elections candidate exactly? I'm not being sarcastic.

 

And also are we writing Bernie off at this point? Joe has momentum but is it really a foregone conclusion at this point?

It's more than policies that win elections. For Biden, it's the perception of electibility among the Democratic party against Trump, despite general election polling, because the assumption seems to be moderate is more electible, when what is actually moderate doesn't necessarily mean policy moderation.

 

There is a good case to be made that Bernie is perceived as more moderate in part because he is an independent, and therefore not a member of the party/party establishment (this is consistent with the idea that Trump was perceived as more moderate than Hillary as he on the surface bucked the party establishment and she was the face of the Democratic party). 

 

Unless there is a significant drop in Bidens support, which could still happen, he will be the nominee at the end.