Movies Matthew Vaughn Wants To Reboot The Star Wars Universe

[SuperSpreader]

29 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

he needs instead to learn to trust his female superiors, even when kept in the dark.

 

But he doesn't? Leia follows him in the end?

 

 

29 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Rose stopping him is essentially saying: "we can win without ridiculous sacrificial heroics, let's try alternate methods rather than mythologizing heroic suicide in movies".

 

I just read it as we can't kill a top selling toy

 

 

[Bacon]

30 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

they want those tropes, they like them

I wasn't mad, but I do like those tropes a lot.

 

I mean, I pretty much always play the buffest and manliest characters when given the option. I think Gears of War is great.

 

And I think Knives Out and Glass Onion are amazing and fantastic movies.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, SuperSpreader said:

But he doesn't? Leia follows him in the end?

 

I just read it as we can't kill a top selling toy

 

No, Leia sides with Laura Dern the whole movie to allow her to do the hyperspace jump and keeps Poe in the dark. Leia even baton stuns Poe to stop his mutiny. After his costly counterattack in the beginning of the movie Holdo (Laura Dern) and Leia are very wary of Poe and decide he needs to learn some lessons.

 

And no, that's not why Finn wasn't killed, as I explained. The movie doesn't really play out like its trying to merchandise anything.

[Greatoneshere]

10 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I wasn't mad, but I do like those tropes a lot.

 

I mean, I pretty much always play the buffest and manliest characters when given the option. I think Gears of War is great.

 

And I think Knives Out and Glass Onion are amazing and fantastic movies.

 

I understand that men like those tropes, but the tropes are outdated. They aren't needed. You can still have buff men, just not doing the tropes is all. We need men like Mad Max in Fury Road, who empowers women and uses his strength to support their needs (because he can and they can't, they need him and he doesn't take advantage of that, he does the best he can instead), not just take everything over to suit what he thinks is best. That's what The Last Jedi is also saying: those old tropes aren't healthy and aren't necessary - there are better ways to attack and handle problems.

 

Example: Poe finds Holdo's plan at the end of the film to save the remaining Resistance members by running away in small transport vessels to be cowardly and futile so he leads a mutiny. Remember, this was a guy willing to sacrifice many lives for the opening counterattack in the film, and because of his stupid ideas of what it means to be a man, he lets the idea of doing something "cowardly" stop him from seeing that's the healthier and better option to save more lives, which it does. The tropes are stupid and the movie bears that out - everyone lives (excepting Holdo's sacrifice), so Holdo, Leia and Rose were right - Luke didn't need to come in person and Finn didn't have to kill himself. Rian Johnson is saying movies have for to often now written themselves into unhealthy corners where a man has to act like Poe and that's somehow a good thing or sacrificing yourself is necessary to win like Finn tries to do, as if that's a good thing. These things aren't and movies like Mad Max and TLJ show that. We want people to presumably take better messages from their movies than what we've been peddling for so long in film and TV.

[SuperSpreader]

12 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

No, Leia sides with Laura Dern the whole movie to allow her to do the hyperspace jump and keeps Poe in the dark. Leia even baton stuns Poe to stop his mutiny. After his costly counterattack in the beginning of the movie Holdo (Laura Dern) and Leia are very wary of Poe and decide he needs to learn some lessons

 

It's been a while but I remember it ending on a let's follow him and Leia saying she liked him instead of firing squad him for fucking everything up 

[Greatoneshere]

6 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

It's been a while but I remember it ending on a let's follow him and Leia saying she liked him instead of firing squad him for fucking everything up 

 

She still likes him of course, the whole thing about keeping him in the dark was to teach him some lessons, not punish him, and once it seems he's learned that Leia accepts him back into the fold near the end of the movie once they're on Crait and Holdo's plan has succeeded.

[SuperSpreader]

2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

She still likes him of course, the whole thing about keeping him in the dark was to teach him some lessons, not punish him, and once it seems he's learned that Leia accepts him back into the fold.

 

Dude failed up and got promoted. So yeah I guess it is reflective of how white men succeed in the real world. 

 

The end result is man anger and ignorance still makes you the boss. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

Dude failed up and got promoted. So yeah I guess it is reflective of how white men succeed in the real world. 

 

I mean that's why Holdo and Leia put up with his antics for so long throughout the film until Leia literally needs to knock him out to stop him. He didn't fail up - Poe is still the best pilot out there and he knows how to inspire and lead regular soldiers. That doesn't mean there isn't still more for him to learn, which he ultimately does, and my bigger points about the scenes you mentioned still stands. Also Poe isn't white, I assume Oscar Isaac is playing his own race/ethnicity as Poe.  

[SuperSpreader]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I mean that's why Holdo and Leia put up with his antics for so long throughout the film until Leia literally needs to knock him out to stop him. He didn't fail up - Poe is still the best pilot out there and he knows how to inspire and lead regular soldiers. That doesn't mean there isn't still more for him to learn, which he ultimately does, and my bigger points about the scenes you mentioned still stands. 

 

I just read that whole movie as dude gets everyone killed and fails at everything and becomes the boss. 

[Bacon]

Just now, Greatoneshere said:

I understand that men like those tropes, but the tropes are outdated. They aren't needed.

But I like them and want them. I do like manly man things and I feel I watch/play/read less stuff due to the trend of not being what I desire. And that's fine tho. Like, less stuff for me, but not everything needs to be made for me.

 

And I like Fury Road a lot too, but I never noticed the things you brought up. To me, it was just a cool movie with cool characters. Like, sure, yep, you are totally right about those themes, but I never would have noticed them on my own. Reddit made me aware of them a bit ago.

 

I will say that I am rarely, if ever, a fan of self-sacrifice. Better to live than die.

[SuperSpreader]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

But I like them and want them. I do like manly man things and I feel I watch/play/read less stuff due to the trend of not being what I desire. And that's fine tho. Like, less stuff for me, but not everything needs to be made for

 

I don't mind brutish man behavior being shown to be counterproductive. I don't believe this movie did any of that. 

[Greatoneshere]

17 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I just read that whole movie as dude gets everyone killed and fails at everything and becomes the boss. 

 

I think a rewatch may be in order.  

 

5 minutes ago, Bacon said:

But I like them and want them. I do like manly man things and I feel I watch/play/read less stuff due to the trend of not being what I desire. And that's fine tho. Like, less stuff for me, but not everything needs to be made for me.

 

And I like Fury Road a lot too, but I never noticed the things you brought up. To me, it was just a cool movie with cool characters. Like, sure, yep, you are totally right about those themes, but I never would have noticed them on my own. Reddit made me aware of them a bit ago.

 

I will say that I am rarely, if ever, a fan of self-sacrifice. Better to live than die.

 

I totally understand - and as you said, we're already inundated with tons of the tropes you like, so TLJ doing it differently is refreshing and doesn't change the fact there are still many with the tropes you like. Why others (not you) needed TLJ to do those same tropes as well is weird. 

[SuperSpreader]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I think a rewatch may be in order.  

 

Zero chance!

[cusideabelincoln]

2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

It means Rian Johnson put the aforementioned scenes you mentioned that you said you don't like to specifically show that the typical male hero action tropes in cinema are stupid and shouldn't be what we show and teach viewers. Instead of being a bull-headed hero trying to do everything on his own without all the information (Oscar Isaac) he needs instead to learn to trust his female superiors, even when kept in the dark. He needs to learn to be okay with that - which is a much more sensible approach than the typical bull in a china shop shit most male action heroes pull in these kinds of situations. Similarly, Finn sacrificing himself in that moment and Rose stopping him is another example of dispelling the typical action movie cliche that it always requires a sacrifice by a good guy to "win" and Rose stopping him is essentially saying: "we can win without ridiculous sacrificial heroics, let's try alternate methods rather than mythologizing heroic suicide in movies".

 

It's the same reason Rian Johnson doesn't even have Luke fight Kylo Ren at the end of the film because resorting to violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and Rian Johnson isn't going to glorify that notion. Rian Johnson is using Luke faking the fight with Kylo to mock the idea that there "needs" to be a final battle. Instead Kylo Ren comes off like a typical angsty man whereas Luke uses strategy and non-violence to beat this typical male at his own lame "we need to have a real fight" game. The entirety of TLJ is filmed with this mentality in mind, made to dispel all these stupid male action hero cliches for a new approach, many most blockbuster films don't do. And unsurprisingly, it pissed off a lot of men because they want those tropes, they like them and Rian Johnson is saying women think those tropes are stupid and instead want to problem solve on a higher level without needing action hero men running around sacrificing themselves or contravening orders because they hate not being in the loop. So no, I'm not projecting. You can still dislike the film but from your post it just sounds like the scenes went over your head since you take the scenes at face value when more is going on. People really need to check their film biases at the door when watching this film. There is article after article about this:

 

THE LAST JEDI & The Failure Of Masculinity - Film Inquiry

WWW.FILMINQUIRY.COM

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The Last Jedi is a polarizing film, but looking deeper into Rian Johnson's vision you will find some potent themes, including the failures of masculinity.

 

 

Are there any quotes/articles that this was Johnson's intention? I think most of these subversions are simply in sake of a twist - a surprise for the audience - with some surface-level criticism of masculinity thrown in. Because it's quite odd for Rian to make this a central theme with all the male characters being a negative example of masculine tropes without any positive examples of masculinity. Positive re-enforcement is more rewarding to the audience.  Also in making this point, the article is definitely ignoring some details, like even though Luke fakes the "testosterone-driven" fight he still heroically sacrifices himself because.... he dies. And corresponding the whole Jedi Order to unhealthy masculinity is some projection - also kind of odd that Rey really wants to save it. Perhaps the movie is trying to make those arguments, but it makes other ones too and isn't exactly clear-cut. My initial thoughts on opening night was the movie was trying to have its cake and eat it too with its messaging about the Jedi Order, and it's a bit messy.

 

I walked out of TLJ loving it because it shat on all the dumb re-hashes JJ introduced in TFA, with the prime example being Snoke. However upon re-watching it much later, with the emotions dialed down, I think the movie does too much to try to be clever and "meta" in sacrifice of the logistics of the plot. Namely... the entire premise of the chase makes no sense. And the movie still falls into the SW trope of "rhyming" with the OT. Much like TFA took an outline of ANH and put a twist on it, so the TLJ does the same with ESB as a blueprint. Extended chase sequence? Check. Bunker assault on a white planet? Check. Protagonist seeking wisdom of a Jedi Master? Check. Antagonist making a "huge" reveal to the protagonist? Check. Somber ending, good guys take a huge hit, barely escaping? Check. But it's still the best movie out of the sequels because at least it forces you think and has some great shots, while you literally need to shut your brain off for the JJ flicks.

[TUFKAK]

Nobody hates Star Wars like Star Wars fans. Thors beard people.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

Are there any quotes/articles that this was Johnson's intention? I think most of these subversions are simply in sake of a twist - a surprise for the audience - with some surface-level criticism of masculinity thrown in. Because it's quite odd for Rian to make this a central theme with all the male characters being a negative example of masculine tropes without any positive examples of masculinity. Positive re-enforcement is more rewarding to the audience.  Also in making this point, the article is definitely ignoring some details, like even though Luke fakes the "testosterone-driven" fight he still heroically sacrifices himself because.... he dies. And corresponding the whole Jedi Order to unhealthy masculinity is some projection - also kind of odd that Rey really wants to save it. Perhaps the movie is trying to make those arguments, but it makes other ones too and isn't exactly clear-cut. My initial thoughts on opening night was the movie was trying to have its cake and eat it too with its messaging about the Jedi Order, and it's a bit messy.

 

I walked out of TLJ loving it because it shat on all the dumb re-hashes JJ introduced in TFA, with the prime example being Snoke. However upon re-watching it much later, with the emotions dialed down, I think the movie does too much to try to be clever and "meta" in sacrifice of the logistics of the plot. Namely... the entire premise of the chase makes no sense. And the movie still falls into the SW trope of "rhyming" with the OT. Much like TFA took an outline of ANH and put a twist on it, so the TLJ does the same with ESB as a blueprint. Extended chase sequence? Check. Bunker assault on a white planet? Check. Protagonist seeking wisdom of a Jedi Master? Check. Antagonist making a "huge" reveal to the protagonist? Check. Somber ending, good guys take a huge hit, barely escaping? Check. But it's still the best movie out of the sequels because at least it forces you think and has some great shots, while you literally need to shut your brain off for the JJ flicks.

 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying - Rian Johnson can certainly be criticized for his subversions not being weaved into the plot well enough but those subversions are definitely there and definitely part of the point but to me that strikes me as a weak criticism because, for example. Barbie's gender politics were obvious and front and center and no one seemed to mind and Barbie's observations are more obvious than TLJ's so calling TLJ's "surface level" to me is a good thing - the film is for all ages and people still didn't get his "surface level" messaging so how surface level can it be if the average man doesn't even get it? And why would it be odd to have no portrayals of positive masculinity in the film? Does it need to have it? I don't think so - not every film needs a counter balance, other films can go do that. As for quotes/articles, as I said, there are so many on TLJ's toxic masculinity messaging that it's clear it was part of Rian Johnson's intention to put all of that stuff into the film (elegantly or not is up to each person). Either way I'd definitely agree that Johnson gets ahead of himself, wanting to get his messaging in even when it can hurt the plot, like how much time passes in each plotline feels very different and how the chase makes no sense. Here's a couple more articles on it since, as you said, the first article does ignore some details to make its points, it's not the final word on this by any means. It's pretty clear that a lot of men on a subconscious level simply responded to the way TLJ is filmed in an aggressively negative manner since it's made with VERY feminist sensibilities. That doesn't mean TLJ is above criticism but a lot of people who criticize TLJ are doing it from that place of violently rejecting its filmmaking rather than from an objective perspective. If you're interested:

 

Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi | Den of Geek

WWW.DENOFGEEK.COM

---

Time to talk about the competent women and the emotionally-challenged men of Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

 

“This is Not Going to Go the Way You Think”: The Last Jedi Is Subversive AF, and I Am Here for It | Bitter Gertrude

BITTERGERTRUDE.COM

---

NOTE: This post is full of spoilers. "This is not going to go the way you think." -- Luke Skywalker Star Wars has always had its finger on the pulse of the cultural fear of the moment. In the original trilogy in the 1970s and early 80s, it was The Man-- an evil establishment that…

 

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' and its unexpected examination of toxic masculinity (spoilers)

WWW.YAHOO.COM

---

Of all the things we expected from 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi', an enlightening examination of the harm caused by toxic masculinity was not one of them.

 

[LazyPiranha]

Good lord clicked on this to read the latest post and I honestly thought I was accidentally reading a years old post.  We’re STILL talking about TLJ?  
 

TLJ works as a fascinating mirror of the person critiquing it.  If anyone ever has shit to say about the physics of TLJ while they sit contentedly watching a skyscraper sized worm living in the vacuum of space somehow sustaining itself on a diet of hapless spaceships, then they a fool.  

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

Good lord clicked on this to read the latest post and I honestly thought I was accidentally reading a years old post.  We’re STILL talking about TLJ?  
 

TLJ works as a fascinating mirror of the person critiquing it.  If anyone ever has shit to say about the physics of TLJ while they sit contentedly watching a skyscraper sized worm living in the vacuum of space somehow sustaining itself on a diet of hapless spaceships, then they a fool.  

 

I didn't want to start another whole TLJ discussion, but SuperSpreader literally calling out scenes he didn't enjoy while missing the entire subtext/thematic point of those scenes made me feel I should at least inform him of what he missed, and things went from there.  

[TUFKAK]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I didn't want to start another whole TLJ discussion, but SuperSpreader literally calling out scenes he didn't enjoy while missing the entire subtext/thematic point of those scenes made me feel I should at least inform him of what he missed, and things went from there.  

Well bitch we fighting now! 
 

I can’t tolerate a universe where men aren’t in charge and therefore loser guys can’t live vicariously through the men on screen.

 

I personally didn’t enjoy the sequels but more of the manner it shifted the force on its head, like over thousands of years not one force user figured out you could just download teaching into someone’s brain until the force willed it, just ignore Anakin being willed into existence and still had to be trained.

 

But I can appreciate the messaging found in it for sure, I personally exist in a very weird dichotomy of existence as an outward appearing hypermasculine guy whilst working in a very feminine driven profession so seeing these the raw discussed is a good thing and it clearly got people talking.

 

Also it’s just Star Wars, it’s not something important like Star Trek. 😉

[Greatoneshere]

58 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I personally didn’t enjoy the sequels but more of the manner it shifted the force on its head, like over thousands of years not one force user figured out you could just download teaching into someone’s brain until the force willed it, just ignore Anakin being willed into existence and still had to be trained.

 

But I can appreciate the messaging found in it for sure, I personally exist in a very weird dichotomy of existence as an outward appearing hypermasculine guy whilst working in a very feminine driven profession so seeing these the raw discussed is a good thing and it clearly got people talking.

 

Yeah, exactly - what makes TLJ a good movie is it gets people talking in the right directions. And while I'm with you that the sequel trilogy isn't great overall, and that includes TLJ now that we know how things end up (ugh, TROS), the great thing about TLJ is the cinematography is so fucking good that compared to JJ Abrams' typical cinematography BS, Rian Johnson's elevates TLJ as a cut above. Same for Gareth Edwards' Rogue One, which is also beautiful to look at.

[Bacon]

It really is fucked up how TROS exists.

[SaysWho?]

@Bacon with the post calling for unity.

[cusideabelincoln]

53 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying - Rian Johnson can certainly be criticized for his subversions not being weaved into the plot well enough but those subversions are definitely there and definitely part of the point but to me that strikes me as a weak criticism because, for example. Barbie's gender politics were obvious and front and center and no one seemed to mind and Barbie's observations are more obvious than TLJ's so calling TLJ's "surface level" to me is a good thing - the film is for all ages and people still didn't get his "surface level" messaging so how surface level can it be if the average man doesn't even get it? And why would it be odd to have no portrayals of positive masculinity in the film? Does it need to have it? I don't think so - not every film needs a counter balance, other films can go do that. As for quotes/articles, as I said, there are so many on TLJ's toxic masculinity messaging that it's clear it was part of Rian Johnson's intention to put all of that stuff into the film (elegantly or not is up to each person). Either way I'd definitely agree that Johnson gets ahead of himself, wanting to get his messaging in even when it can hurt the plot, like how much time passes in each plotline feels very different and how the chase makes no sense. Here's a couple more articles on it since, as you said, the first article does ignore some details to make its points, it's not the final word on this by any means. It's pretty clear that a lot of men on a subconscious level simply responded to the way TLJ is filmed in an aggressively negative manner since it's made with VERY feminist sensibilities. That doesn't mean TLJ is above criticism but a lot of people who criticize TLJ are doing it from that place of violently rejecting its filmmaking rather than from an objective perspective. If you're interested:

 

Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi | Den of Geek

WWW.DENOFGEEK.COM

---

Time to talk about the competent women and the emotionally-challenged men of Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

 

“This is Not Going to Go the Way You Think”: The Last Jedi Is Subversive AF, and I Am Here for It | Bitter Gertrude

BITTERGERTRUDE.COM

---

NOTE: This post is full of spoilers. "This is not going to go the way you think." -- Luke Skywalker Star Wars has always had its finger on the pulse of the cultural fear of the moment. In the original trilogy in the 1970s and early 80s, it was The Man-- an evil establishment that…

 

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' and its unexpected examination of toxic masculinity (spoilers)

WWW.YAHOO.COM

---

Of all the things we expected from 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi', an enlightening examination of the harm caused by toxic masculinity was not one of them.

 

 

I'll read those later, but I will say it's a weird turn for TLJ to make to have everything revolve around toxic masculinity. And it doesn't just detriment the plot if Johnson's goal was to inject as many male-critique themes as possible. I'd argue Finn's character goes underdeveloped throughout the entire trilogy; the "brainwashed, kidnapped child soldier" is a more critical part of his core development than masculinity and it goes completely ignored in TLJ and TROS.

 

 

edit:

 

Quote

And why would it be odd to have no portrayals of positive masculinity in the film? Does it need to have it? I don't think so - not every film needs a counter balance, other films can go do that.

 

I mean, why does the movie need to go deep into toxic masculinity? Certainly didn't need to do either as it was certainly not a focus of past SW films. I always took any character flaws in previous films to be those of that particular character, not a whole subset of people.

[TUFKAK]

19 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Yeah, exactly - what makes TLJ a good movie is it gets people talking in the right directions. And while I'm with you that the sequel trilogy isn't great overall, and that includes TLJ now that we know how things end up (ugh, ROTS), the great thing about TLJ is the cinematography is so fucking good that compared to JJ Abrams' typical cinematography BS, Rian Johnson's elevates TLJ as a cut above. Same for Gareth Edwards' Rogue One, which is also beautiful to look at.

For sure, there are multiple ways to appreciate art, as an aside I was sortve bored with John Wick 4 until that top down and then I was super into it for that alone, and there were absolutely beautiful scenes in the movie. My only reservation was the outright destruction of cannon the sequels portrayed as opposed to the movie as a whole. 
 

Toxic masculinity needs to be confronted and if Star Wars does it great, sci fi fans typically have no issue with this so no idea why here it’s a problem. Ripley has been killing Xenomorphs for decades and that wasn’t an issue.

[TUFKAK]

2 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

I'll read those later, but I will say it's a weird turn for TLJ to make to have everything revolve around toxic masculinity. And it doesn't just detriment the plot if Johnson's goal was to inject as many male-critique themes as possible. I'd argue Finn's character goes underdeveloped throughout the entire trilogy; the "brainwashed, kidnapped child soldier" is a more critical part of his core development than masculinity and it goes completely ignored in TLJ and TROS.

I can admit this was a missed point, it would e been an interesting view if they had delved into it.

[SaysWho?]

21 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

I'll read those later, but I will say it's a weird turn for TLJ to make to have everything revolve around toxic masculinity. And it doesn't just detriment the plot if Johnson's goal was to inject as many male-critique themes as possible. I'd argue Finn's character goes underdeveloped throughout the entire trilogy; the "brainwashed, kidnapped child soldier" is a more critical part of his core development than masculinity and it goes completely ignored in TLJ and TROS.

 

 

edit:

 

 

I mean, why does the movie need to go deep into toxic masculinity? Certainly didn't need to do either as it was certainly not a focus of past SW films. I always took any character flaws in previous films to be those of that particular character, not a whole subset of people.

Finn is only underdeveloped because of TROS. He gets two films worth of an arc and could have had a well formed conclusion had Duel of the Fates Ben the ending.

 

By the end of TFA, he’s fully detached from The First Order and goes to rescue Rey. He admits at the end he only went to Starkiller Base for Rey.

 

By the end of TLJ, he goes from just caring about Rey to calling himself a rebel, fully committing to the cause.

 

DotF would have further explored his past connections to the First Order. Wish it did.

[Greatoneshere]

28 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

I'll read those later, but I will say it's a weird turn for TLJ to make to have everything revolve around toxic masculinity. And it doesn't just detriment the plot if Johnson's goal was to inject as many male-critique themes as possible. I'd argue Finn's character goes underdeveloped throughout the entire trilogy; the "brainwashed, kidnapped child soldier" is a more critical part of his core development than masculinity and it goes completely ignored in TLJ and TROS.

 

I mean, why does the movie need to go deep into toxic masculinity? Certainly didn't need to do either as it was certainly not a focus of past SW films. I always took any character flaws in previous films to be those of that particular character, not a whole subset of people.

 

I mean, I agree with you - why did Rian Johnson feel that this was the time and place, via Star Wars, to confront male action hero tropes and that's probably because it's interesting when making an action blockbuster. If not then then when kind of mentality. Does the plot suffer sometimes to make his points? Yes, absolutely. Was Finn largely ignored? Yep. Though at least TLJ confronts his cowardice and his misinterpretation of sacrifice as bravery. It's really TROS that fails Finn ultimately.

 

Yeah, I agree, the film didn't need to go into toxic masculinity any more than it needed a positive representation of it. I try to judge TLJ on what it is rather than what it isn't. 

[cusideabelincoln]

4 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I mean, I agree with you - why did Rian Johnson feel that this was the time and place, via Star Wars, to confront male action hero tropes and that's probably because it's interesting when making an action blockbuster. If not then then when kind of mentality. Does the plot suffer sometimes to make his points? Yes, absolutely. Was Finn largely ignored? Yep. Though at least TLJ confronts his cowardice and his misinterpretation of sacrifice as bravery. It's really TROS that fails Finn ultimately.

 

Yeah, I agree, the film didn't need to go into toxic masculinity any more than it needed a positive representation of it. I try to judge TLJ on what it is rather than what it isn't. 

 

Lately I look at these blockbuster movies, especially Disney ones, from the lens of a megacorporation trying to squeeze money from as many target audiences as it possibly can. The reason we have 10-30 year old remakes now is because us past kids have grown and have money to spend. So even though TLJ has a necessary message it wants to tell, I personally think they're just doing it for greedy reasons. I mean you can see the checkboxes of things the corporation wanted the ST to have to make sure it makes money. So the story and plot take a sacrifice in order to cram those checkboxes in.

 

I'm definitely getting more jaded as I get older.

[Greatoneshere]

7 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

Lately I look at these blockbuster movies, especially Disney ones, from the lens of a megacorporation trying to squeeze money from as many target audiences as it possibly can. The reason we have 10-30 year old remakes now is because us past kids have grown and have money to spend. So even though TLJ has a necessary message it wants to tell, I personally think they're just doing it for greedy reasons. I mean you can see the checkboxes of things the corporation wanted the ST to have to make sure it makes money. So the story and plot take a sacrifice in order to cram those checkboxes in.

 

I'm definitely getting more jaded as I get older.

 

I completely agree from a corporate level it's all about the bottom line but Rian Johnson solely wrote and directed TLJ and he's a real auteur so I find it hard to believe he would allow Disney corporate to hijack the film from him, and given the lengthy behind the scenes documentary only shows Johnson made exactly what he wanted, I don't think completely subverting male action hero tropes and pissing off the primarily male fanbase was on Disney's bingo card - that's all Johnson. And I don't see how making a divisive film like TLJ is better for Disney than forcing Johnson to have made another safe blockbuster like TFA was. I'm as jaded as they come but it just doesn't hold here given the facts. 

[cusideabelincoln]

21 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Finn is only underdeveloped because of TROS. He gets two films worth of an arc and could have had a well formed conclusion had Duel of the Fates Ben the ending.

 

By the end of TFA, he’s fully detached from The First Order and goes to rescue Rey. He admits at the end he only went to Starkiller Base for Rey.

 

By the end of TLJ, he goes from just caring about Rey to calling himself a rebel, fully committing to the cause.

 

DotF would have further explored his past connections to the First Order. Wish it did.

 

Yet again TFA is the poison of the well (ST). A lot of these issues people have started with the decisions made in TFA.

 

I really didn't care for the no time gap between TFA and TLJ, and I think it added unnecessary constraints to the story, but considering TFA decided to "go bigger and badder" with its story maybe RJ felt that was the best way to tell his story.

[Greatoneshere]

6 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

Yet again TFA is the poison of the well (ST). A lot of these issues people have started with the decisions made in TFA.

 

I really didn't care for the no time gap between TFA and TLJ, and I think it added unnecessary constraints to the story, but considering TFA decided to "go bigger and badder" with its story maybe RJ felt that was the best way to tell his story.

 

Yes, I agree that TLJ's biggest mistake was not doing a time jump akin to the one between ANH and ESB. And that TFA poisoned the well from the start by not being the David Lean-esque directing that the OT had. Everything was amped up for the ADHD generation when that's not Star Wars' tone. I've been banging that drum for a long time. All the more impressive what TLJ did given how much TFA set him up to fail.

[TheLeon]

1 hour ago, Bacon said:

It really is fucked up how TROS exists.

My sister is the most generous person I know. Most of the time, if we watch a bad movie or show, she’ll say something like “they made some interesting choices that just didn’t work” or “at least the locations were pretty” or “ they seemed like they were having fun”. When we walked out of TROS, she said “How did nobody stop that from happening?”

 

”Stopped what from happening?” I asked.

 

”All of it.”

[Bacon]

3 minutes ago, TheLeon said:

My sister is the most generous person I know. Most of the time, if we watch a bad movie or show, she’ll say something like “they made some interesting choices that just didn’t work” or “at least the locations were pretty” or “ they seemed like they were having fun”. When we walked out of TROS, she said “How did nobody stop that from happening?”

 

”Stopped what from happening?” I asked.

 

”All of it.”

Tell your sister I said she's based

[johnny]

oh cool, people complaining about TLJ and sounding like idiots. movie is great. go pound sand 

[Bacon]

4 minutes ago, johnny said:

oh cool, people complaining about TLJ and sounding like idiots. movie is great. go pound sand 

k

dick hurts now