Movies Matthew Vaughn Wants To Reboot The Star Wars Universe

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, TheLeon said:

My sister is the most generous person I know. Most of the time, if we watch a bad movie or show, she’ll say something like “they made some interesting choices that just didn’t work” or “at least the locations were pretty” or “ they seemed like they were having fun”. When we walked out of TROS, she said “How did nobody stop that from happening?”

 

”Stopped what from happening?” I asked.

 

”All of it.”

 

TROS is so bad. 

[SaysWho?]

7 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

TROS is so bad. 

 

Our reaction after it ended.

 

Me: Well.... that was a movie.

Friend: I guess things happened?

[cusideabelincoln]

3 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying - Rian Johnson can certainly be criticized for his subversions not being weaved into the plot well enough but those subversions are definitely there and definitely part of the point but to me that strikes me as a weak criticism because, for example. Barbie's gender politics were obvious and front and center and no one seemed to mind and Barbie's observations are more obvious than TLJ's so calling TLJ's "surface level" to me is a good thing - the film is for all ages and people still didn't get his "surface level" messaging so how surface level can it be if the average man doesn't even get it? And why would it be odd to have no portrayals of positive masculinity in the film? Does it need to have it? I don't think so - not every film needs a counter balance, other films can go do that. As for quotes/articles, as I said, there are so many on TLJ's toxic masculinity messaging that it's clear it was part of Rian Johnson's intention to put all of that stuff into the film (elegantly or not is up to each person). Either way I'd definitely agree that Johnson gets ahead of himself, wanting to get his messaging in even when it can hurt the plot, like how much time passes in each plotline feels very different and how the chase makes no sense. Here's a couple more articles on it since, as you said, the first article does ignore some details to make its points, it's not the final word on this by any means. It's pretty clear that a lot of men on a subconscious level simply responded to the way TLJ is filmed in an aggressively negative manner since it's made with VERY feminist sensibilities. That doesn't mean TLJ is above criticism but a lot of people who criticize TLJ are doing it from that place of violently rejecting its filmmaking rather than from an objective perspective. If you're interested:

 

Toxic Masculinity Is the True Villain of Star Wars: The Last Jedi | Den of Geek

WWW.DENOFGEEK.COM

---

Time to talk about the competent women and the emotionally-challenged men of Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

 

“This is Not Going to Go the Way You Think”: The Last Jedi Is Subversive AF, and I Am Here for It | Bitter Gertrude

BITTERGERTRUDE.COM

---

NOTE: This post is full of spoilers. "This is not going to go the way you think." -- Luke Skywalker Star Wars has always had its finger on the pulse of the cultural fear of the moment. In the original trilogy in the 1970s and early 80s, it was The Man-- an evil establishment that…

 

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' and its unexpected examination of toxic masculinity (spoilers)

WWW.YAHOO.COM

---

Of all the things we expected from 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi', an enlightening examination of the harm caused by toxic masculinity was not one of them.

 

 

Ok I've read them and they make the case pretty strongly. I knew there was an uptick for female equality and representation in the mid 2010's, but I didn't realize it came with a strong anti-patriarchy movement too. Probably not coincidentally, that must be the female perspective because all of those articles are written by women. While those themes do exist in the movie, I'm still not convinced they exist to the extreme level of detail that those authors see them as. Even the one article who summarized the OT being about "fighting the man" while the PT was about "turning a blind eye to Corpo-Govt takeover", you can make an arbitrary argument for any of the movies. I'm reminded of an assignment I had to do for a literature class my freshman year of college. The professor wanted us to write an essay about what the author meant by some assigned story. As usual I procrastinated to the night before, but I just went through the story and picked the examples that fit the narrative I was using. The professor gave me an A and wrote he hadn't heard that one before, and it wasn't because I was necessarily right. I just made some shit up, and really the only person who knows what the author meant was the author themselves.

 

Also what I meant by "surface-level" was closer to... happenstance, coincidence. Maybe it is my male perspective, but for example if we take the Poe vs Holdo dynamic I think people would have hated it the same even if Holdo was a man. One popular circumstance that comes to mind happens in one of the Harry Potter movies. I was equally annoyed with Dumbledore when he chose to keep Harry in the dark and ignore him the entire time - I think that was in Goblet of Fire - and it was all for literally no good reason and done only to complicate the plot. Unspecified hostility and forced dramatic irony is annoying to an audience., so it's not necessary gender has anything to do with it. While those articles do a make a strong argument it was a deliberate choice to present a message, I don't agree with every one of their points of comparison. It would be much for me to go through all of them, but I could argue that gender for the newly-introduced characters in TLJ was just... balance, heuristics. They wanted to include (represent) more females in TLJ since they already established more male leads in TFA, Rose exists as a mechanism to detach Finn from Rey (because that 'ship was never going to happen *coughChina*), and RJ never bothered to make a commentary about Phasma since she is there to be a "cool-looking bad-person, but we already have too many bad-guys in SW so we need a bad-girl".

 

I'll have to rewatch the movie to see if the anti-patriarchy runs as deep as the articles are saying, because I have surely forgotten or missed some nuances of the movie.

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

, I'm still not convinced they exist to the extreme level of detail that those authors see them as. Even the one article who summarized the OT being about "fighting the man" while the PT was about "turning a blind eye to Corpo-Govt takeover", you can make an arbitrary argument for any of the movies.

 

Quality aside, I thought that was just about what the PT was about. In fact, the recent seven years have convinced me that some deformed fuck calling for the end of democracy really would be met with applause.

[Greatoneshere]

46 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Ok I've read them and they make the case pretty strongly. I knew there was an uptick for female equality and representation in the mid 2010's, but I didn't realize it came with a strong anti-patriarchy movement too. Probably not coincidentally, that must be the female perspective because all of those articles are written by women. While those themes do exist in the movie, I'm still not convinced they exist to the extreme level of detail that those authors see them as. Even the one article who summarized the OT being about "fighting the man" while the PT was about "turning a blind eye to Corpo-Govt takeover", you can make an arbitrary argument for any of the movies. I'm reminded of an assignment I had to do for a literature class my freshman year of college. The professor wanted us to write an essay about what the author meant by some assigned story. As usual I procrastinated to the night before, but I just went through the story and picked the examples that fit the narrative I was using. The professor gave me an A and wrote he hadn't heard that one before, and it wasn't because I was necessarily right. I just made some shit up, and really the only person who knows what the author meant was the author themselves.

 

I'll have to rewatch the movie to see if the anti-patriarchy runs as deep as the articles are saying, because I have surely forgotten or missed some nuances of the movie.

 

I think I better understand what you are saying (and thanks for taking the time to read the links!). But George Lucas definitely intended political messaging in his prequels I think. Additionally, had Holdo been a man, that's Rian Johnson's argument - that Poe would behave and react differently had it been a man, and if he hadn't reacted differently, the audience would treat it differently. You say you think audiences would react the same, but I don't - male obstacles to another man's objective (as you said, unexplained hostility) is never met with the hostility women who are obstacles are, from Breaking Bad's Anna Gunn (Walt's wife) to Laura Dern's Holdo. You may not agree that would be the case but that's what Johnson is trying to say at least. And given the incredible amount of vitriol that was aimed at Holdo with Poe vs. Yoda and Obi-Wan from witholding key information from Luke says a lot, don't you? I don't see fans hating what Yoda and Obi-Wan did vs. Holdo.

 

I definitely recommend a rewatch - if you do let us know what you think. Also I recommend that Mad Max article I linked to on page one if you haven't already as that helps bear this out as well.

 

40 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Quality aside, I thought that was just about what the PT was about. In fact, the recent seven years have convinced me that some deformed fuck calling for the end of democracy really would be met with applause.

 

Agreed.

[SuperSpreader]

12 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Our reaction after it ended.

 

Me: Well.... that was a movie.

Friend: I guess things happened?

 

 

The whole series and ESPECIALLY TROS was this scene 

[SuperSpreader]

Also they had an opportunity with this series to build up Rey a FEMALE bad ass Jedi and it kind of fizzled into 🤷‍♂️ they could have hired a female director but they went with dudes. All the focus is on how male characters get punished for being toxic males or whatever and every opportunity with Rey was ignored. They somehow made it about men.

 

PS I just hate this entire series. Maybe more than the Prequels. Maybe less.. I don't know.

[Greatoneshere]

37 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

Also they had an opportunity with this series to build up Rey a FEMALE bad ass Jedi and it kind of fizzled into 🤷‍♂️ they could have hired a female director but they went with dudes. All the focus is on how male characters get punished for being toxic males or whatever and every opportunity with Rey was ignored. They somehow made it about men.

 

PS I just hate this entire series. Maybe more than the Prequels. Maybe less.. I don't know.

 

Actually Rey gets a lot of development in TLJ which gives her significant agency I'd argue. But TROS failed her, like it failed every character. All of Rey's time with Luke in TLJ, especially the mirror scene, is diving into her psyche of imposter syndrome and growing up completely alone without a family.

[Bacon]

I like the prequels far more than the sequels. Tho, any Star Wars you see as a child is bound to be held in higher regard. I mean, the best Star Wars is actually in the video games tho.

[cusideabelincoln]

11 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think I better understand what you are saying (and thanks for taking the time to read the links!). But George Lucas definitely intended political messaging in his prequels I think. Additionally, had Holdo been a man, that's Rian Johnson's argument - that Poe would behave and react differently had it been a man, and if he hadn't reacted differently, the audience would treat it differently. You say you think audiences would react the same, but I don't - male obstacles to another man's objective (as you said, unexplained hostility) is never met with the hostility women who are obstacles are, from Breaking Bad's Anna Gunn (Walt's wife) to Laura Dern's Holdo. You may not agree that would be the case but that's what Johnson is trying to say at least. And given the incredible amount of vitriol that was aimed at Holdo with Poe vs. Yoda and Obi-Wan from witholding key information from Luke says a lot, don't you? I don't see fans hating what Yoda and Obi-Wan did vs. Holdo.

 

I definitely recommend a rewatch - if you do let us know what you think. Also I recommend that Mad Max article I linked to on page one if you haven't already as that helps bear this out as well.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Ok, I see that point. No doubt people other than myself wetn full on misogynistic with hate against Holdo while I personally thought Poe was acting like a dumbass the entire time... which you are arguing is on purpose to specifically point out toxic masculinity. Fair enough, there's probably more reason to believe this take over any other.

 

12 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Quality aside, I thought that was just about what the PT was about. In fact, the recent seven years have convinced me that some deformed fuck calling for the end of democracy really would be met with applause.

 

Better yet, Palpatine represents how some crazy old cook could just make up any old lie, without providing any proof, and the masses eat it up. Here I thought the movies were just taking shorcuts with storytelling, while I'm sure Palpy had his own... intergalactic "Fox" News Network. Man, if George had just leaned in on the messaging about propaganda those movies would have hit harder.

[SaysWho?]

10 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Better yet, Palpatine represents how some crazy old cook could just make up any old lie, without providing any proof, and the masses eat it up. Here I thought the movies were just taking shorcuts with storytelling, while I'm sure Palpy had his own... intergalactic "Fox" News Network. Man, if George had just leaned in on the messaging about propaganda those movies would have hit harder.

 

It's why I've maintained the prequels could have been better than the original movies due to the story being told, but the story being told vs. how it was told are totally different. As it stands, I love 4-8 as movies and Star Wars and all of that. I appreciate the political intrigue in episodes 2 and 3 (even though 2 was a terrible movie) and the overarching story of the downfall of the Republic, and I do like the acting and actors' energy in 9 even though the script and direction brought the whole package down.

[Kal-El814]

12 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Also what I meant by "surface-level" was closer to... happenstance, coincidence. Maybe it is my male perspective, but for example if we take the Poe vs Holdo dynamic I think people would have hated it the same even if Holdo was a man. One popular circumstance that comes to mind happens in one of the Harry Potter movies. I was equally annoyed with Dumbledore when he chose to keep Harry in the dark and ignore him the entire time - I think that was in Goblet of Fire - and it was all for literally no good reason and done only to complicate the plot. Unspecified hostility and forced dramatic irony is annoying to an audience., so it's not necessary gender has anything to do with it. While those articles do a make a strong argument it was a deliberate choice to present a message, I don't agree with every one of their points of comparison. It would be much for me to go through all of them, but I could argue that gender for the newly-introduced characters in TLJ was just... balance, heuristics. They wanted to include (represent) more females in TLJ since they already established more male leads in TFA, Rose exists as a mechanism to detach Finn from Rey (because that 'ship was never going to happen *coughChina*), and RJ never bothered to make a commentary about Phasma since she is there to be a "cool-looking bad-person, but we already have too many bad-guys in SW so we need a bad-girl".

 

Even in this example, Dumbledore is still almost universally beloved and Holdo is reviled. I don't think it's literally as simple as Dumbledore is a dude and therefore good and Holdo is a woman and therefore bad. But at the same time I don't think the fact that Holdo is a woman is unrelated to the amount of heat she took from the fandom. It's just a thing that men's flaws give them depth and allow them to be compelling and women are defined solely by their flaws. Rey in TFA took more than her share of shit for being conveniently dope with the Force and while we'll never know for sure, it's difficult to imagine the same thing would have happened if Rey was a guy. Or jumping back to Potter... Snape is a wizard racist who treats Harry like absolute dogshit across thousands of pages because he had one sided, incel-vibe heavy love for Lilly... and he's praised for his depth and characterization. I'm hard pressed to think of ANY female character in pop culture that gets to be that flawed while also being beloved and perceived as ultimately noble? 

 

We see this over and over and over and over. In Endgame the entire plot hinges on a time heist, predestination, Nebula never updating her brain's Wi-Fi password, etc. Yet people thought the ladies teaming up to help Spidey was "contrived." The entire affair was a $300M exercise in fanservice and people lost their suspension of disbelief when a bunch of women happened to be standing next to one another.

 

It's likely not a coincidence that the critics and tastemakers judging and making this content have been, generally, straight white guys.

 

To be clear I don't mean to direct this all at you specifically @cusideabelincoln  

 

To @Bacon's point, I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with liking entertainment that goes down stereotypical gender roles, or is heteronormative, or whatever (though I acknowledge that this is a privileged POV). We're not really at any kind of risk for that sort of content going away. The issue is when that's perceived as the default. It's the implicit bias that the ends justify the means and dudes who take action, usually straight white dudes, are ultimately in the right for making "the hard decision." IIRC during the Bush era when people were defending "enhanced interrogation techniques", Antonin Scalia brought up Jack Bauer situations as like... maybe we need to just torture people sometimes because there might be a ticking timebomb somewhere. We see this shit with The Boys where people either miss that Homelander is ACTUALLY a bad person and not just "misunderstood" or want him to have some kind of redemption arc where he sheds a single tear as he dies pushing a nuke into the sun or some shit.

 

It's also why I think that... (spoilers for stuff that happens late into the Invincible comic and that has NOT happened on the show yet)

 

Spoiler

Omni-Man's "good guy pivot" is a big flaw in the comic. I still like it a lot and everything but the notion that fatherhood can make a space-Nazi a good guy and "redeem" him is just... too much and a really bad example of this trope.

 

I'm a person whose first wish if I got a genie would be to destroy all guns in the hands of private citizens immediately and forever, but I like it when John Wick shoots a lot of people in the face.  So I'm not necessarily saying, "don't make this content ever," but I think it would be better and more interesting if there was more content exploring other perspectives and the people that got to be flawed weren't generally straight white dudes.

[SaysWho?]

1 hour ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

 

The whole series and ESPECIALLY TROS was this scene 

 

Nah, I could tell the directors had a lot of passion in 7 and 8 for what they were doing. Many of the flaws of the prequels were fixed in 7, and the story did well to honor the past but also move on from it in 8. TROS is pretty much fan faction, though I hear the actual movie of Duel of the Fates was good.

[Bacon]

4 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

It's why I've maintained the prequels could have been better than the original movies due to the story being told, but the story being told vs. how it was told are totally different. As it stands, I love 4-8 as movies and Star Wars and all of that. I appreciate the political intrigue in episodes 2 and 3 (even though 2 was a terrible movie) and the overarching story of the downfall of the Republic, and I do like the acting and actors' energy in 9 even though the script and direction brought the whole package down.

EP1 has pod racing, Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn, and  Duel of the Fates. It's alright in my book.

[Greatoneshere]

10 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Even in this example, Dumbledore is still almost universally beloved and Holdo is reviled. I don't think it's literally as simple as Dumbledore is a dude and therefore good and Holdo is a woman and therefore bad. But at the same time I don't think the fact that Holdo is a woman is unrelated to the amount of heat she took from the fandom. It's just a thing that men's flaws give them depth and allow them to compelling and women are defined solely by their flaws. Rey in TFA took more than her share of shit for being conveniently dope with the Force and while we'll never know for sure, it's difficult to imagine the same thing would have happened if Rey was a guy. Or jumping back to Potter... Snape is a wizard racist who treats Harry like absolute dogshit across thousands of pages because he had one sided, incel-vibe heavy love for Lilly... and he's praised for his depth and characterization. I'm hard pressed to think of ANY female character in pop culture that gets to be that flawed while also being beloved and perceived as ultimately noble? 

 

I'm a person whose first wish if I got a genie would be to destroy all guns in the hands of private citizens immediately and forever, but I like it when John Wick shoots a lot of people in the face.  So I'm not necessarily saying, "don't make this content ever," but I think it would be better and more interesting if there was more content exploring other perspectives and the people that got to be flawed weren't generally straight white dudes.

 

You mentioned a number of additional examples that I was thinking of that also bear this all out. The minute a female character in a big, fan-heavy series like the MCU and Star Wars does anything it is scrutinized far differently than a male character. I mean, the vitriol aimed at Brie Larson for not making Captain Marvel a character that immediately appeals to men is something that would never happen with a white male character. All your points are salient - the need to diversify is so important in terms of themes and messaging in film and art.

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, Bacon said:

EP1 has pod racing, Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn, and  Duel of the Fates. It's alright in my book.

 

Episode 1 might arguably be the best of the three because it has the most real sets and practical effects and feels the most like the Old Republic since things haven't gone to shit yet with the Clone Wars and nothing in the rest of the prequels matches the pod race or the Duel of the Fates. I know that's a hot take but you take out kid Anakin's terrible acting and dialogue and ignore Jar Jar's antics and it's a pretty good movie if the acting overall had more energy to it (everyone talks so stiff and formally to one another).

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Episode 1 might arguably be the best of the three because it has the most real sets and practical effects and feels the most like the Old Republic since things haven't gone to shit yet and nothing in the rest of the prequels matches the pod race or thee Duell of the Fates. I know that's a hot take but you take out kid Anakin's terrible acting and dialogue and ignore Jar Jar's antics and it's a pretty good movie if the acting overall had more energy to it (everyone talks so stiff and formally to one another).

 

Their personalities involve existing.

 

Course, my favorite isn't even Duel of the Fates; my favorite is Yoda vs Palpatine, which has the song anyway but also has Palpatine literally tearing the Senate apart before tearing it apart in 4 figuratively.

[Greatoneshere]

4 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Their personalities involve existing.

 

Course, my favorite isn't even Duel of the Fates; my favorite is Yoda vs Palpatine, which has the song anyway but also has Palpatine literally tearing the Senate apart before tearing it apart in 4 figuratively.

 

Yoda vs. Palpatine is a badass scene but it's relatively short and there isn't much lightsaber fighting or anything. It's cool for what it's visualizing thematically with the accompanying score, but Duel of the Fates is a legit action scene that still slaps today. Both are good but I never really saw the Yoda vs. Palpatine face off as a "fight" per se. ROTS has some good stuff in it but a lot of fake looking CG and Anakin's heel turn isn't very believable and the final Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight is almost too much nonsense as opposed to the tight intensity of Duel of the Fates.

[Bacon]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Episode 1 might arguably be the best of the three because it has the most real sets and practical effects and feels the most like the Old Republic since things haven't gone to shit yet and nothing in the rest of the prequels matches the pod race or thee Duell of the Fates. I know that's a hot take but you take out kid Anakin's terrible acting and dialogue and ignore Jar Jar's antics and it's a pretty good movie if the acting overall had more energy to it (everyone talks so stiff and formally to one another).

The thing about Kid Anakin is that I was a kid around the same age. I could have been Aankin in another life in a galaxy far far away. I've never been able to hate Ani because of that.

 

13 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I think it would be better and more interesting if there was more content exploring other perspectives and the people that got to be flawed weren't generally straight white dudes.

Listen, pardner, I'm a straight white MAN who self-inserts into better-looking cooler white MEN who get laid. You need to respect my lifestyle!

[SuperSpreader]

I never had a problem with Holdo, she was the only one who was consistent and had brains. 

[SaysWho?]

Just now, SuperSpreader said:

I never had a problem with Holdo, she was the only one who was consistent and had brains. 

 

You learn a thing or two repowering a dinosaur park.

[SuperSpreader]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

 

You learn a thing or two repowering a dinosaur park.

 

I didn't even realize it was the same person! 

[SuperSpreader]

Suck it, nerds! 

[GeneticBlueprint]

Dang I missed all the TLJ talk here because I was arguing with somebody on reddit about it.

[Greatoneshere]

To be fair the conversation about TLJ in this thread was quite respectable and went well I thought. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

9 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

To be fair the conversation about TLJ in this thread was quite respectable and went well I thought. 

 

It was. I enjoyed reading through the convo.

 

For the record I'm on the "TLJ is great" train for many of the reasons mentioned throughout the thread. But I think what really hits home for me in that movie is actually the thing its detractors most despise: Luke's portrayal. Like, I get it, seeing Luke run in with a laser sword and taking down the First Order would have been cool. That's actually exactly what I was wanting and hoping for when I was anticipating the movie. But I don't think it would have been good. When I was a kid I loved Luke and wanted to be Luke. What young boy didn't? But realistically I couldn't relate to Luke. Sure I wanted to go off on some adventure and be the good guy and hero and all that. But my dad wasn't space Hitler, you know? Now that I'm older, I can relate a lot to Luke in TLJ: I've had a crisis of faith. I've let people down who expected better of me due to my imperfections. I've been at my wits' end trying to discipline and guide an unruly child. I've failed at various and sundry things I've attempted and felt reclusive. I guess to relate that back to what was discussed earlier, I feel like a lot of adult males didn't appreciate that mirror being held up in front of them. Or haven't had those types of experiences and trials in their lives. I almost wish I could say the same but the movie makes a really great point about those experiences being teachers. New and revelatory? No. But beautifully told.

 

And we still get a really badass Luke moment anyways.

[Bacon]

Mid-life Luke is the only thing left I'm interested in from the Skywalkers. I had always thought he'd partly be a wandering knight. My problem with TLJ Luke is that we never really see him at his peak. Not that he wasn't strong in the Force, but one display and then he's gone is not what I wanted. If there was at least 1 piece of Mid-Life Luke media before TLJ, I would have probably liked TLJ Luke's show of mastery.

 

If they were to make a new series or movie with mid-life Luke I'd be down 100%. Just don't use the deep fake shit. Just use a new actor, thanks.

[SuperSpreader]

Luke is and has always been a whiny bitch. That's my take. 

[Bacon]

I like Luke. He used a green lightsaber that one time which is the best color of lightsaber.

[Greatoneshere]

29 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Mid-life Luke is the only thing left I'm interested in from the Skywalkers. I had always thought he'd partly be a wandering knight. My problem with TLJ Luke is that we never really see him at his peak. Not that he wasn't strong in the Force, but one display and then he's gone is not what I wanted. If there was at least 1 piece of Mid-Life Luke media before TLJ, I would have probably liked TLJ Luke's show of mastery.

 

If they were to make a new series or movie with mid-life Luke I'd be down 100%. Just don't use the deep fake shit. Just use a new actor, thanks.

 

I hear what you're saying but the 30 year time jump prevents that from happening except through flashbacks (which we only get one of in TLJ with Luke succumbing to a mistake with Kylo Ren) until The Mandalorian season 2. The reason I bolded the one part is because this is the problem people take with the approach towards a media franchise where there are "expectations". Not getting what you wanted going in is not a criticism towards TLJ yet for some reason TLJ suffers this criticism a lot (this is not directed at you Bacon, just using what you said as a jumping off point). A lot of adult men went into TLJ expecting and wanting one thing and TLJ provided something else entirely that was also great but for some reason it gets docked points because it wasn't what one wanted. As I said earlier in this thread, you have to judge art on what it is, not what it isn't, to be fair at all to the piece of work. Given TLJ had to be a sequel to TFA while servicing new and legacy characters at the same time, there's no room for TLJ to show you mid-age Luke being awesome and so TLJ doesn't try. I know I've posted it before (mostly as a joke) but I get the idea a lot of adult men went into the laser sword space wizard movie wanting this and I can't imagine a more boring movie compared to what we got with TLJ (which is not a perfect movie by any means, I'd give it an 8/10): 

 

 

I do 100% agree that it's time to just cast new actors for the OT roles like Luke rather than deep fake shit. It's time, as weird as that will be and it will take getting used to. I mean, Sebastian Stan is right there still, and already works for Disney via the MCU. 

[UpvoteShittyTakesOnly]

you monsters 

[Bacon]

28 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Not getting what you wanted going in is not a criticism towards TLJ yet for some reason TLJ suffers this criticism a lot (this is not directed at you Bacon, just using what you said as a jumping off point). A lot of adult men went into TLJ expecting and wanting one thing and TLJ provided something else entirely that was also great but for some reason it gets docked points because it wasn't what one wanted.

Oh, no, I am very much part of the "I criticized it because it's not what I wanted." It's not fair, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

 

That picture is exactly what I want along with Finn being Luke's son, somehow. OK, well, it's not exactly what I want but it's in the right ball park. I do dislike it for what it isn't more than for what it is and I can't really change that, tbh.

[GeneticBlueprint]

22 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I hear what you're saying but the 30 year time jump prevents that from happening except through flashbacks (which we only get one of in TLJ with Luke succumbing to a mistake with Kylo Ren) until The Mandalorian season 2. The reason I bolded the one part is because this is the problem people take with the approach towards a media franchise where there are "expectations". Not getting what you wanted going in is not a criticism towards TLJ yet for some reason TLJ suffers this criticism a lot (this is not directed at you Bacon, just using what you said as a jumping off point). A lot of adult men went into TLJ expecting and wanting one thing and TLJ provided something else entirely that was also great but for some reason it gets docked points because it wasn't what one wanted. As I said earlier in this thread, you have to judge art on what it is, not what it isn't, to be fair at all to the piece of work. Given TLJ had to be a sequel to TFA while servicing new and legacy characters at the same time, there's no room for TLJ to show you mid-age Luke being awesome and so TLJ doesn't try. I know I've posted it before (mostly as a joke) but I get the idea a lot of adult men went into the laser sword space wizard movie wanting this and I can't imagine a more boring movie compared to what we got with TLJ (which is not a perfect movie by any means, I'd give it an 8/10): 

 

I have tried to get across this same concept to so many people I've discussed this movie with. Lost count of how many times I've said "Okay you're approaching the movie on your terms. I'm approaching the movie on its terms, like the way you've approached literally every other movie ever made except this one."

 

27 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I do 100% agree that it's time to just cast new actors for the OT roles like Luke rather than deep fake shit. It's time, as weird as that will be and it will take getting used to. I mean, Sebastian Stan is right there still, and already works for Disney via the MCU. 

 

I actually very much agree with something @Bacon posted on the first page. Jump into the future please. Like really far into the future. Go ahead and reference OT characters in a throwaway line or object or something but please don't have them physically present in the films.

[Greatoneshere]

5 hours ago, Bacon said:

Oh, no, I am very much part of the "I criticized it because it's not what I wanted." It's not fair, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

 

That picture is exactly what I want along with Finn being Luke's son, somehow. OK, well, it's not exactly what I want but it's in the right ball park. I do dislike it for what it isn't more than for what it is and I can't really change that, tbh.

 

So long as you're aware of it, etc., which you clearly are, that's the most one can ask of anyone. Most adult men don't even get close to understanding this so you're good.

 

5 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

I have tried to get across this same concept to so many people I've discussed this movie with. Lost count of how many times I've said "Okay you're approaching the movie on your terms. I'm approaching the movie on its terms, like the way you've approached literally every other movie ever made except this one."

 

I actually very much agree with something @Bacon posted on the first page. Jump into the future please. Like really far into the future. Go ahead and reference OT characters in a throwaway line or object or something but please don't have them physically present in the films.

 

Yeah, I see it a lot in person and online particularly where for some reason big franchises, and stuff like Star Wars and LOTR in particular, many audience members went in needing everything to go a certain way, etc. and that's not how we normally approach movies. It can be deflating at first for the fan, I get that, but then you have to get over it and judge the movie on its terms.

 

And I agree in that I'd love to jump way ahead in the future too but I have to accept that's unlikely for the time being. But a reboot? No thanks.

[SaysWho?]

6 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

 

It was. I enjoyed reading through the convo.

 

For the record I'm on the "TLJ is great" train for many of the reasons mentioned throughout the thread. But I think what really hits home for me in that movie is actually the thing its detractors most despise: Luke's portrayal. Like, I get it, seeing Luke run in with a laser sword and taking down the First Order would have been cool. That's actually exactly what I was wanting and hoping for when I was anticipating the movie. But I don't think it would have been good. When I was a kid I loved Luke and wanted to be Luke. What young boy didn't? But realistically I couldn't relate to Luke. Sure I wanted to go off on some adventure and be the good guy and hero and all that. But my dad wasn't space Hitler, you know? Now that I'm older, I can relate a lot to Luke in TLJ: I've had a crisis of faith. I've let people down who expected better of me due to my imperfections. I've been at my wits' end trying to discipline and guide an unruly child. I've failed at various and sundry things I've attempted and felt reclusive. I guess to relate that back to what was discussed earlier, I feel like a lot of adult males didn't appreciate that mirror being held up in front of them. Or haven't had those types of experiences and trials in their lives. I almost wish I could say the same but the movie makes a really great point about those experiences being teachers. New and revelatory? No. But beautifully told.

 

And we still get a really badass Luke moment anyways.

Part of many things I love about the climax: Luke was badass and didn’t hurt a single soul. His most badass moment in episode 6 was throwing away his saber. His most badass moment in 8 is getting dirt off his shoulder. Or “See ya round kid” as if he’s Kylo’s dad.