Microsoft Xbox Series X | S OT - Power Your Dreams, update: FTC case unredacted documents leaked, including XSX mid-generation refresh, new gyro/haptic-enabled controller, and next-generation plans for 2028

[Spork3245]

Just now, crispy4000 said:

 

Hard to misunderstand that.  

 

And yet, you did.

5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I sincerely doubt that AAA developers envision the general look of their game based on the PC minimum.

 

This is not what was stated. At all. I stated that they build from the minimum... because... they do.

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

And yet, you did.

 

This is not what was stated. At all. I stated that they build from the minimum... because... they do.

 

Now, to clarify, there are times when the devs scale down to their target "lowest dominator", however, this also limits how "low" they're going to go, and sometimes (many times) this leaves them rebuilding many parts of the game (Witcher 3 original E3 demo vs release; required specs were much too high initially, so they had to start over). The lowest settings/minimum specs are not the "vision" the devs have for the game, but it's a base to build off of to get to their vision. With the Series S vs Series X and still building for last gen, needing to scale down that much can hurt the "vision" they have in mind.

[crispy4000]

41 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

This is not what was stated. At all. I stated that they build from the minimum... because... they do.

Now, to clarify, there are times when the devs scale down to their target "lowest dominator", however, this also limits how "low" they're going to go, and sometimes (many times) this leaves them rebuilding many parts of the game (Witcher 3 original E3 demo vs release; required specs were much too high initially, so they had to start over). The lowest settings/minimum specs are not the "vision" the devs have for the game, but it's a base to build off of to get to their vision. With the Series S vs Series X and still building for last gen, needing to scale down that much can hurt the "vision" they have in mind.

Most games start development with grey boxing, so technically speaking, they build from lower than the eventual minimum spec.  On the other end of the spectrum, art assets of multiplatform games tend to be made with high specs in mind. 

So I don't think you can say definitively say the "base to build off of" aligns with the lowest targeted spec, be that PC minimum or weakest console.  It's more nuanced than that, especially this far into cross-gen.  Some games like Horizon Forbidden West line up better with your view, others like RE Village won't.

 

As for Series S, I don't see why developers should be targeting it.  Just hope that it doesn't look like total shit when dialed back far enough from the Series X optimizations.  We already saw this happen with the Xbox One, even moreso the launch model.

[Spork3245]

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

So I don't think you can say definitively say the "base to build off of" aligns with the lowest targeted spec, be that PC minimum or weakest console.  It's more nuanced than that, especially this far into cross-gen.  Some games like Horizon Forbidden West line up better with your view, others like RE Village won't.

 

I'm not speaking definitively, I'm speaking broadly and generally with layman's terms so I don't need to post a wall.   

 

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

As for Series S, I don't see why developers should target it, to be totally honest.  Just hope that it doesn't look like total shit when dialed back far enough from the Series X optimizations.

 

I don't know if the issue is so much as targeting it, as it is having it not affect their overall vision for the XSX (and PS5) version (the reason some devs seem to be getting frustrated at least).

[crispy4000]

23 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I don't know if the issue is so much as targeting it, as it is having it not affect their overall vision for the XSX (and PS5) version (the reason some devs seem to be getting frustrated at least).

If they don't give a shit about Series S, it won't.

 

Everyone who bought a Series S should be expecting this.  No one will be hurt if we start seeing even further cut backs.  If they are, it's time to upgrade.

[Spork3245]

36 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

If they don't give a shit about Series S, it won't.

 

Everyone who bought a Series S should be expecting this.  No one will be hurt if we start seeing even further cut backs.  If they are, it's time to upgrade.

That’s the problem, though. MSFT is currently requiring devs to put any game that’s on the X on the S as well. If that requirement gets dropped, like these devs want, then it’s no longer an issue.

[crispy4000]

54 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

That’s the problem, though. MSFT is currently requiring devs to put any game that’s on the X on the S as well. If that requirement gets dropped, like these devs want, then it’s no longer an issue.

 

Making a low effort Series S version shouldn't be much of a problem.  Microsoft themselves touted the ease of being able to scale games down to the S from X.  Even if they're wrong, to make a game truly sing on the S is not something I expect from devs throughout this generation.

 

I'd expect Microsoft to not drop the requirement, and S ports to suffer ahead of current gen games being held back as a whole.

[Spork3245]

16 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Making a low effort Series S version shouldn't be much of a problem.  Microsoft themselves touted the ease of being able to scale games down to the S from X.  Even if they're wrong, to make a game truly sing on the S is not something I expect from devs throughout this generation.

 

I'd expect Microsoft to not drop the requirement, and S ports to suffer ahead of current gen games being held back as a whole.

I’d imagine Microsoft has minimum standards that prevent a game running at 640x480 and 15fps on Series S.

[crispy4000]

15 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I’d imagine Microsoft has minimum standards that prevent a game running at 640x480 and 15fps on Series S.

 

The Medium drops to sub 720p at 30fps on Series S, so probably not.

[Spork3245]

23 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

The Medium drops to sub 720p at 30fps on Series S, so probably not.

This is what we’re talking about here, though: 

5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Studios Asking Xbox To Drop Xbox Series S Requirement, Dev Says; System Has Become "Albatross" - GameSpot

WWW.GAMESPOT.COM

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"Many developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped."

 

 

[crispy4000]

48 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

This is what we’re talking about here, though:

 

Yes, I know.  Some developers would like it dropped because they don't want to have to deal with it, think it'll limit them, etc.

As I've said, it's only as much of a limiting factor as they choose it to be.  Not unlike a potato PC.  Any developer making a game with specifically with Series S in mind is either going to fall behind the curve, or already is.

[Spork3245]

17 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Not unlike a potato PC.

Trying to adapt for this would hold back games on higher specs, much like the complaint with the XSS suggests. I don’t believe it’s solely laziness.

[crispy4000]

35 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Trying to adapt for this would hold back games on higher specs, much like the complaint with the XSS suggests. I don’t believe it’s solely laziness.

No developer should be designing for the Series S spec in specific unless it’s the explicit goal of the project to make a game that runs great for it.  Just like Riot does for old PCs.  Or many indies do on Switch.

 

IMO, Series S should be more akin to the Deck, where games might run well on it, but can’t always be expected to because it’s not the target.  AAA developers will (and probably should) treat it like an afterthought.

[Spork3245]

18 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

No developer should be designing for the Series S spec in specific 

That’s not what I stated. I think the S shouldn’t exist and split the user base unnecessarily from day one.

 

18 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

where games might run well on it, but can’t always be expected to because it’s not the target.  AAA developers will (and probably should) treat it like an afterthought.

MSFT doesn’t seem to allow devs to do this and is more-or-less what said devs seem to be asking for.

[crispy4000]

20 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

That’s not what I stated. I think the S shouldn’t exist and split the user base unnecessarily from day one.

Agreed, but that’s in the past now.

 

20 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

MSFT doesn’t seem to allow devs to do this and is more-or-less what said devs seem to be asking for.

Devs are allowed to make it an afterthought, so long as they release a build of some fashion.  Microsoft allowed Xbox One games to run poorly at low res, no reason to think it’d be a step too far for Series S games to find themselves in that spot.  Again, we’ve already seen sub 720p on it.

 

This is an ‘S’ console, they’ve conditioned us on what to expect.

[Spork3245]

13 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

Devs are allowed to make it an afterthought

I believe there’s quality standards that are needed to be met as there are on all consoles (set by/from MSFT, Nintendo, Sony for each of their own consoles). Devs are asking for those to be either lowered further or removed completely in regards to the S. If there were no such standards, the devs likely wouldn’t have as much of an issue (not to the point that some are now directly petitioning for the S requirements to be removed).

 

Is your argument that the S isn’t holding back the X in any way and that devs are just being lazy?

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

Is your argument that the S isn’t holding back the X in any way and that devs are just being lazy?

 

His argument is to be contrary to anything you say.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

His argument is to be contrary to anything you say.

[Spork3245]

This is from Id Software regarding the S being a limiter… 2+ years ago:

Quote

Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters…

… The memory situation is a big issue on the S. The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.

https://wccftech.com/id-software-devs-concerns-xbox-series-s-specs/amp/

 

If devs are allowed to truly make it an afterthought, I doubt that they’d be complaining. Some games running sub-HD resolution is likely a compromise to meet the minimum quality standards in terms of playability and in no way makes the S version an afterthought in the actual context that is being debated (despite whether or not a dev is targeting the proper experience on the X vs the S); it makes it a pain in the ass.
Also, for the record, The Medium is by no means a truly “good looking” game, so for that to need to go sub-HD to meet quality standards isn’t something in favor of keeping the Series S requirement.  

 

[crispy4000]

6 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

His argument is to be contrary to anything you say.

 

We wouldn't be having this discussion if we agreed.  I'd be arguing with you the same if you took his stance.  Stop marginalizing my opinions because of a disagreement?  Thanks.

 

 

6 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

This is from Id Software regarding the S being a limiter… 2+ years ago:

https://wccftech.com/id-software-devs-concerns-xbox-series-s-specs/amp/

 

If devs are allowed to truly make it an afterthought, I doubt that they’d be complaining. Some games running sub-HD resolution is likely a compromise to meet the minimum quality standards in terms of playability and in no way makes the S version an afterthought in the actual context that is being debated (despite whether or not a dev is targeting the proper experience on the X vs the S); it makes it a pain in the ass.
Also, for the record, The Medium is by no means a truly “good looking” game, so for that to need to go sub-HD to meet quality standards isn’t something in favor of keeping the Series S requirement.  

 

 

No one wants their game to run like shit on a spec a bunch of people will inevitably experience it on.  We don't disagree there.  But when I look at the way developers treated the Xbox One by the generation's end, I think the industry as a whole will show by action that they don't care as much these individual developers speaking out.  The same pattern should repeat.  Series S will be "supported" in the loosest sense possible given the power differential.

 

Look at one of those statements:

 

Quote

The memory situation is a big issue on the S. The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.

 

No doubt they won't be completely counteracted.  Some devs will split hairs over it and agonize over Series S optimizations to get it looking the best it can.  But at some point, just like the One, the industry will move forward in spite of Series S.  The idea of 'complete' parity at lower resolutions was always a nonstarter for it.

[crispy4000]

I think it’s also possible that Microsoft introduces a Series S+ somewhere along the line, to make developers a little happier.

 

That’s be a nice way to handwave off the current Series S’ problems, and is a strategy they’ve used before.

[best3444]

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I think it’s also possible that Microsoft introduces a Series S+ somewhere along the line, to make developers a little happier.

 

That’s be a nice way to handwave off the current Series S’ problems, and is a strategy they’ve used before.

 

Yea, I thought about this as well. A very good possibility when the mid gen consoles come out. 

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

But when I look at the way developers treated the Xbox One by the generation's end

That took nearly 6 years before the launch Xbone became an afterthought. 

 

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

Look at one of those statements:

The key wording there is “marginally”, however, and the developer flat-out stating that it won’t completely help the issues of needing to develop for both versions.

 

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

The idea of 'complete' parity at lower resolutions was always a nonstarter for it.

This is what the devs are asking to end, so they can move forward.

 

I honestly have no idea what you’re arguing about. You seem to want devs to ignore the Series S, which is literally what they’re asking to be able to do.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

I think it’s also possible that Microsoft introduces a Series S+ somewhere along the line, to make developers a little happier.

 

That’s be a nice way to handwave off the current Series S’ problems, and is a strategy they’ve used before.

Adding a third underpowered sku is not a solution and an even worse idea, actually. The better thing to do is if a “pro” version of the Series X comes out is to make the current X the new S.

[Spork3245]

Microsoft put themselves in a corner with the Series S. It’s barely two years old and we’re talking about AAA games being an “afterthought” on it

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

That took nearly 6 years before the launch Xbone became an afterthought. 

Give or take.  The One S was already showing troubles keeping up ~2-3 years after it launched.  That might actually be the better metric here, relative to the expectations Microsoft is creating for S hardware.
 

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

I honestly have no idea what you’re arguing about. You seem to want devs to ignore the Series S, which is literally what they’re asking to be able to do.

I think the industry at large will stop prioritizing Series S optimization after the cross-gen period is over.  Games will continue to release for it, but DF and the like will say it feels like it’s being ignored, even when games will still technically run on it.  (Not unlike launch Xbox One units, which haven’t been treated as a baseline for sometime now)

 

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

Adding a third underpowered sku is not a solution and an even worse idea, actually. The better thing to do is if a “pro” version of the Series X comes out is to make the current X the new S.

I’m with you, but doubt that’s the path they’ll take.  They’ve already added a 3rd underpowered SKU once before.  

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I think the industry at large will stop prioritizing Series S optimization after the cross-gen period is over.  Games will continue to release for it, but DF and the like will say it feels like it’s being ignored, even when games will still technically run on it.  (Not unlike launch Xbox One units, which aren’t really treated as a baseline anymore)

 

Yes, this is seemingly what the devs want, and what Id Software was warning about in 2020.

I'm unsure what the current QC standards are for S games vs X games (ie: if the S version of a game needs to have a 60fps mode if X version does, minus resolution + some fidelity), but a compromise that could be made now/soon would be for MSFT to lower that standard a bit further to, at least partially, alleviate the constraints some devs seem to feeling.

[crispy4000]

I wonder if there’s any sort of mandate at all.  We’ve seen so much variation already. 
 

The marketing idea of the console being a 1440p machine was never enforced either.  Microsoft has also said they have no resolution/FPS requirements for Series X.

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I wonder if there’s any sort of mandate at all.  We’ve seen so much variation already. 

If there wasn’t, devs wouldn’t be asking for it to end  

 

10 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

The marketing idea of the console being a 1440p machine was never enforced either.

It was marketed as “capable of 1440p”. Only a handful of games ever did 1440p, even at launch.

[crispy4000]

21 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

If there wasn’t, devs wouldn’t be asking for it to end  

The only mandate we know is that games have to ship on Series S.

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

The only mandate we know is that it has to ship on Series S.

There are quality standards that we don’t know.
No disrespect, but I think I’ll go by the devs petitioning (and warning 2 years ago) that needing to dev for the Series S is an issue that holds back the X.  

[crispy4000]

10 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

There are quality standards that we don’t know.
No disrespect, but I think I’ll go by the devs petitioning (and warning 2 years ago) that needing to dev for the Series S is an issue that holds back the X.  

I don’t think we should presume that there are FPS/Resolution standards for Series S when MS has publicly said there isn’t for Series X.  No dev is coming out to say anything to the contrary, in spite of complaining about the hardware.  Those two things shouldn’t be conflated.

 

This is why I brought up The Medium’s resolution dips.  Wouldn’t 720p be some kind of hard limit if there was one?  We haven’t seen many Series S games dip that low yet regardless.  There would appear to be some wiggle room.

[Spork3245]

13 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I don’t think we should presume that there are FPS/Resolution standards for Series S when MS has publicly said there isn’t for Series X.

 

Series X isn't a limiting factor being forced upon developers.

 

13 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

 No dev is coming out to say anything to the contrary, in spite of complaining about the hardware.  

 

They likely cannot say what the standards are (likely NDAs on these things).

 

13 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Wouldn’t 720p be some kind of hard limit if there was one? 

 

Not necessarily. Also, again, the Medium is not a great example of games being able to scale; it's not a good looking game from a graphical standpoint and it needing to go sub-HD to be playable on the S is not a good sign for future games.

 

By the logic you've been presenting, devs could put out games that run at 320x240 and 5fps on Series S and MSFT would be totally fine with that, which would mean that the S isn't a limiting factor at all. However, if this were the case, devs wouldn't be complaining (even before the system released).

[crispy4000]

I’m not saying it could be okay with Microsoft.  I’d just wager they haven’t had to deal with that problem yet.  We’re only just now nearing the end of cross-gen.

 

The Medium is an example of a Series S game dropping sub-HD.  I’d contend its very existence as such is a sign that there is no hard and fast resolution mandate.

 

If there is no limit… how low can you go depends on the developer’s sense.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 I’d contend its very existence as such is a sign that there is no hard and fast resolution mandate.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t one, it also doesn’t mean there isn’t one in place for frame rates. It could also mean there’s one that scales based on how often and for how long it needs to go below [insert resolution] or that it’s okay to go lower than whatever limit may or may not be in place as long as [insert fps] is maintained.
Also, I’d argue that a game that looks like The Medium needing to go sub-HD to be playable validates these complaints from developers, and certainly doesn’t contradict them. It’s one of the few “next gen only” games for the Series consoles due to the SSD being needed, and the lower memory bandwidth of the S seems to be choking it.