Sony "PHYSINT" - some kind of "legally distinct" MGS-style bullshit from Kojima

[Biggie]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

What makes it nonsensical bullshit is that often times it IS indeed nonsensical bullshit. I get that a lot of you guys appreciate the mere attempt  to elevate videogame storytelling, but maybe these guys should master just telling stories first before they try to get avante garde. It's why I'll give a game with a straight forward, conventional but well executed and well told story more credit  than these weird, convoluted, ultimately pedestrian "experiences" any day of the week. Especially when the game's actual gameplay takes a backseat to these its narrative. It's why I didn't enjoy Alan Wake 2, a game where the actual game part of it felt like an afterthought in service to its' overly ambitious story.

 

I gave up on Kojima years ago... he peaked with Snake Eater in my opinion, which happens to be the last game of his I finished despite buying both Metal Gear 4 and 5 day one and never finished. I DIDN'T feel that way about Sam Lake at all, I loved every game Remedy put out INCLUDING Quantum Break because I felt like they were always able to strike a balance between gameplay and narrative in their games. Until Alan Wake 2 that is... Personally if you're going to make the narrative in your game the main selling point over gameplay than that Narrative better be damn good and engaging. Just throwing a bunch of bizarre shit up on the screen doesn't cut it for me personally. I saw enough of that in film school. Weirdness maquerading as "creativity".

I take back what I said about you. I hate you forever. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I thought the 70-minute cutscene at the end was a little overdone.

Didn't Death Stranding have a cutscene that was over 2 hours?

Never made it that far in MGS4 and have no idea about Death Stranding. I'll probably never play that game. If the second one has a little more action and is paced better I may try that one... maybe.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

That's where we differ. An "interesting failure" is STILL a failure to me.

 

I'll try to address each of your points in turn. Yes, a failure is still a failure but a failure can have more artistic value to the viewer than a safe, predictable success. Obviously an interesting success is preferable, and to be clear I think Death Stranding and Alan Wake II are interesting successes, not interesting failures. I only said interesting failures to make the point clear that even an interesting failure, much less an interesting success, will be a more diverse and unpredictable experience than yet another safe success that does everything it does well but plays it safe where everything is straightforward. 

 

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The problem with Kojima is that, in my opinion, he's never learned how to tell a proper story or edit himself. He's DEFINITELY a talented, imaginative guy but his early success hasn't instilled ANY discipline in him and he hasn't matured at all as a story teller simply because he dosen't believe he has to.

 

If you don't see a clear maturation of storytelling going from Metal Gear to MGS to MGS3 to MGS5 to Death Stranding, I think we might be playing different games. Death Stranding's storytelling is a good bit more human, dramatic, better shot and directed and written. His storytelling has improved immensely from the MGS1/MGS2 days. He has more discipline than ever in terms of the issues people have lobbied at him (too many cutscenes) by having his last two games, MGS5 and Death Stranding, both be sandbox open worlds where there is 3-4 more times gameplay than there are cutscenes. Before that wasn't the case, and he's refined his gameplay and opened it up with each passing game, especially since Peace Walker.

 

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

And I'm not saying that these games and experiences shouldn't exist... plenty of people who aren't me seem to enjoy them which is fine... I'm saying let's not kid ourselves. Shit is shit regardless of how you package it and if these were movies or TV shows, we wouldn't be talking about them much less lauding them as pinacles of the medium. I think my problem with gaming narratives in particular is the low expectations we STILL place on them and when some tries something "different" we celebrate it as if it's the second coming when it is in fact... shit. How Alan Wake 2 got so many Game of the Year awards and considerations when it is barely a "game" is amazing to me especially in a year like 2023. This hobby really needs to grow up if it wants to be taking seriously as an artform and that means expecting more from our "autuers" than simply shitting out "Interesting failures". My two cents anyway 

 

You want a masterclass in melding narrative and gameplay? Naughty Dog is RIGHT THERE 

 

Okay, you say a lot here without actually saying a lot. You just say this stuff is shit without naming examples within either game as to how or in what ways are they shit? I played both games in full and I don't see what you're seeing. I don't have low expectations for storytelling in games, many people watch Youtube videos of just all the cutscenes strung together of these games because they are that enjoyable/interesting to watch, pretty sure that means the storytelling is engaging for all kinds of people, not just gamers with low expectations. And naming Naughty Dog reiterates a point that's not relevant here - Naughty Dog makes a very different kind of game than Hideo Kojima or Sam Lake. Again, you just picked a rather straightforward storytelling game studio and game series (both Uncharted and TLOU; both of which I love). 

 

Like, what Kojima and Lake are doing for video games is akin to what filmmakers like David Lynch or David Cronenberg or Alejandro Jodorowsky or Gaspar Noe or Nicolas Winding Refn (who shows up in Death Stranding) are doing for films at a triple AAA level. These are all arthouse/avante garde directors whose work sometimes has mass crossover appeal but can also frequently be divisive and alienating. Are they all shit filmmakers when they get too weird or abstract or strange? I'm not seeing what Kojima or Lake are doing as much different. Are they as good? Hard to say since it's different mediums (films vs. games) but I think they have done as good a job as you can at marrying the two (avante garde storytelling and games) at a triple AAA level as things currently stand (just getting funding for such strange projects alone these days is very hard to do). Just saying: "these games are shit because there's way more story than gameplay" and "the storytelling is shit" are not real criticisms. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I'm not yet finished AW2, but I don't think people have a problem with the story.  More, the gameplay (or general lack thereof).

 

But we love plenty of games with little to no traditional gameplay like Life is Strange or Soma or the Telltale games like The Walking Dead where the general lack of gameplay was found wanting (which I don't believe holds water for Alan Wake II - you do plenty of exploring and light puzzle solving throughout the game regardless of combat; exploring and solving puzzles and finding collectables all count as gameplay). So we heap praise on plenty of games with hardly any gameplay but when we get a full on triple AAA slick experience of the same suddenly it's a problem? Why single out Death Stranding and Alan Wake II (for example)? I do agree that's what peoples' problem is with Alan Wake II but I'm not sure it holds water and even if it did, who cares there's a lack of gameplay when its got plenty else going for it, just like Life is Strange and Soma, etc.

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

But we love plenty of games with little to no traditional gameplay like Life is Strange or Soma or the Telltale games like The Walking Dead where the general lack of gameplay was found wanting (which I don't believe holds water for Alan Wake II - you do plenty of exploring and light puzzle solving throughout the game regardless of combat; exploring and solving puzzles and finding collectables all count as gameplay). So we heap praise on plenty of games with hardly any gameplay but when we get a full on triple AAA slick experience of the same suddenly it's a problem? Why single out Death Stranding and Alan Wake II (for example)? I do agree that's what peoples' problem is with Alan Wake II but I'm not sure it holds water and even if it did, who cares there's a lack of gameplay when its got plenty else going for it, just like Life is Strange and Soma, etc.

I've found much of the gameplay in AW2 wanting -- the story/atmosphere and music are my favourite part of that game.  The combat, IMHO, is a huge step back from both Quantum Break and Control.  The puzzle solving hasn't captured my interest at all -- I don't think the Nursery Rhymes are interesting puzzles at all, and most of the other puzzles are either immediately obvious or obtuse (at least for me).  The mind space for Saga, I find a real chore.  It was interesting for the first few hours, and quickly fell into "busy work" that I had to get through.  It's not a bad game, but given their pedigree, I think it could have been great if it had gameplay that was of the same calibre as Control.

I've tried to play a few walking simulators over the year, but usually get a few hours in and get bored by "the walking".

[skillzdadirecta]

39 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'll try to address each of your points in turn. Yes, a failure is still a failure but a failure can have more artistic value to the viewer than a safe, predictable success. Obviously an interesting success is preferable, and to be clear I think Death Stranding and Alan Wake II are interesting successes, not interesting failures. I only said interesting failures to make the point clear that even an interesting failure, much less an interesting success, will be a more diverse and unpredictable experience than yet another safe success that does everything it does well but plays it safe where everything is straightforward. 

 

 

If you don't see a clear maturation of storytelling going from Metal Gear to MGS to MGS3 to MGS5 to Death Stranding, I think we might be playing different games. Death Stranding's storytelling is a good bit more human, dramatic, better shot and directed and written. His storytelling has improved immensely from the MGS1/MGS2 days. He has more discipline than ever in terms of the issues people have lobbied at him (too many cutscenes) by having his last two games, MGS5 and Death Stranding, both be sandbox open worlds where there is 3-4 more times gameplay than there are cutscenes. Before that wasn't the case, and he's refined his gameplay and opened it up with each passing game, especially since Peace Walker.

 

 

Okay, you say a lot here without actually saying a lot. You just say this stuff is shit without naming examples within either game as to how or in what ways are they shit? I played both games in full and I don't see what you're seeing. I don't have low expectations for storytelling in games, many people watch Youtube videos of just all the cutscenes strung together of these games because they are that enjoyable/interesting to watch, pretty sure that means the storytelling is engaging for all kinds of people, not just gamers with low expectations. And naming Naughty Dog reiterates a point that's not relevant here - Naughty Dog makes a very different kind of game than Hideo Kojima or Sam Lake. Again, you just picked a rather straightforward storytelling game studio and game series (both Uncharted and TLOU; both of which I love). 

 

Like, what Kojima and Lake are doing for video games is akin to what filmmakers like David Lynch or David Cronenberg or Alejandro Jodorowsky or Gaspar Noe or Nicolas Winding Refn (who shows up in Death Stranding) are doing for films at a triple AAA level. These are all arthouse/avante garde directors whose work sometimes has mass crossover appeal but can also frequently be divisive and alienating. Are they all shit filmmakers when they get too weird or abstract or strange? I'm not seeing what Kojima or Lake are doing as much different. Are they as good? Hard to say since it's different mediums (films vs. games) but I think they have done as good a job as you can at marrying the two (avante garde storytelling and games) at a triple AAA level as things currently stand (just getting funding for such strange projects alone these days is very hard to do). Just saying: "these games are shit because there's way more story than gameplay" and "the storytelling is shit" are not real criticisms. 

Ok... how about we agree to disagree and move on? 

[Biggie]

16 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Ok... how about we agree to disagree and move on? 

Yes please. The internet doesn’t have enough bandwidth left for him to address any more of your points. 

[best3444]

6 minutes ago, Biggie said:

Yes please. The internet doesn’t have enough bandwidth left for him to address any more of your points. 

 

His posts are always gigantic and he is always right. No matter what!

[Kal-El814]

After MGS2, the only thing people should be hounding Kojima for is lottery numbers.

[Biggie]

52 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

His posts are always gigantic and he thinks he is always right. No matter what!

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

My main issue with Kojima largely involves the depiction and characterization of women in his games which to be quite frank isn't particularly "positive" at all.

[Biggie]

9 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

My main issue with Kojima largely involves the depiction and characterization of women in his games which to be quite frank isn't particularly "positive" at all.

Like how so?

[best3444]

Just now, Biggie said:

Like how so?

 

I'm wondering the same. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

32 minutes ago, Biggie said:

Like how so?

 

31 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

I'm wondering the same. 

 

This article pretty much articulates my thoughts on the matter:

 

Someone Needs To Tell Kojima That Women Are People Too

WWW.THEGAMER.COM

---

For all of his storytelling genius, Kojima has a history of inconsistency with a certain type of character, and he can really do better.

 

The entire situation involving Pax in Ground Zeroes is at the very least misogynistic, if not borderline depraved.

 

I don't doubt nor begrudge Kojima's status as an auteur, but that shouldn't be used as a cover for the significant deficiencies in his work when it comes to depicting women, especially for something like that in Ground Zeroes.

 

It's not daring.  It's not shocking.  It's not edgy.

 

It's just plain gross.

[best3444]

21 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

 

This article pretty much articulates my thoughts on the matter:

 

Someone Needs To Tell Kojima That Women Are People Too

WWW.THEGAMER.COM

---

For all of his storytelling genius, Kojima has a history of inconsistency with a certain type of character, and he can really do better.

 

The entire situation involving Pax in Ground Zeroes is at the very least mysoginistic, if not borderline depraved.

 

I don't doubt nor begrudge Kojima's status as an auteur, but that shouldn't be used as a cover for the significant deficiencies in his work when it comes to depicting women, especially for something like that in Ground Zeroes.

 

It's not daring.  It's not shocking.  It's not edgy.

 

It's just plain gross.

 

Interesting. I never really took notice of this but now reading that article I see what you're talking about. 

[Greatoneshere]

5 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I've found much of the gameplay in AW2 wanting -- the story/atmosphere and music are my favourite part of that game.  The combat, IMHO, is a huge step back from both Quantum Break and Control.  The puzzle solving hasn't captured my interest at all -- I don't think the Nursery Rhymes are interesting puzzles at all, and most of the other puzzles are either immediately obvious or obtuse (at least for me).  The mind space for Saga, I find a real chore.  It was interesting for the first few hours, and quickly fell into "busy work" that I had to get through.  It's not a bad game, but given their pedigree, I think it could have been great if it had gameplay that was of the same calibre as Control.

 

I've tried to play a few walking simulators over the year, but usually get a few hours in and get bored by "the walking".

 

Right, but it's not trying to be Control. Again, it may just not be for you (like walking simulators), but there's a difference between calling something like Death Stranding or Alan Wake II as "just not for me" and how EvilAsh put it, which is "nonsensical bullshit". There's nothing all that nonsensical about Death Stranding. Weird/strange isn't the same as nonsensical.

 

5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Ok... how about we agree to disagree and move on? 

 

We can but there's more to be said on the topic, how can there be any discourse if no one discusses anything with examples and in detail? But okay, you just don't like the games due to story vs. gameplay ratio, that's all well and good, but that doesn't make them objectively bad either. I don't care if you like the games, I'm not trying to get you to like them. A game that isn't for you doesn't mean it isn't good is all I'm saying. That's the distinction I'm drawing here between this stuff and actual nonsensical bullshit. But anyways all good.

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

My main issue with Kojima largely involves the depiction and characterization of women in his games which to be quite frank isn't particularly "positive" at all.

 

Agreed but if you're saying that makes all of his work "nonsensical bullshit" because of that I'd say you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Agreed but if you're saying that makes all of his work "nonsensical bullshit" because of that I'd say you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

It certainly doesn't make all of his work "nonsensical bullshit" at all largely because I don't consider Kojima's work to be necessarily as "deep" as he thinks it is!

 

It's definitely more interesting thematically than whatever Naughty Dog puts out, so at least he has that going for him!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

You know what?  I think I've hit upon how I can best describe Kojima's work for me:

 

His output is unquestionably unique, interesting, and worth engaging with on an intellectual level despite his seemingly deeply-rooted issues with women.  I'm just unsure if that output is actually any good.

[AbsolutSurgen]

5 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

You know what?  I think I've hit upon how I can best describe Kojima's work for me:

 

His output is unquestionably unique, interesting, and worth engaging with on an intellectual level despite his seemingly deeply-rooted issues with women.  I'm just unsure if that output is actually any good.

Parts of it were, amazing, for its day.  MGS was truly revolutionary.

There was a good part of MGS2 that was nonsensical bullshit -- even though I loved the game.  Once they started babbling on about the "La Li Lu Le Lo" -- I recognized it would be hard to take it seriously.

TBH, I don't think Kojima stands alone with his woman issues.  There was another game from Asia that recently had a trailer at the Sony State of Play that made me feel uncomfortable,

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

TBH, I don't think Kojima stands alone with his woman issues.  There was another game from Asia that recently had a trailer at the Sony State of Play that made me feel uncomfortable,

 

Yeeeeaaaahhh - Stellar Blade's trailer felt really kinda icky.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

We can but there's more to be said on the topic, how can there be any discourse if no one discusses anything with examples and in detail? But okay, you just don't like the games due to story vs. gameplay ratio, that's all well and good, but that doesn't make them objectively bad either. I don't care if you like the games, I'm not trying to get you to like them. A game that isn't for you doesn't mean it isn't good is all I'm saying. That's the distinction I'm drawing here between this stuff and actual nonsensical bullshit. But anyways all good.

 

Your posts are nonsensical bullshit that's why no one is engaging with it.

 

Spoiler

Kidding of course 🫂