General Gaming Imran Khan: Square Enix "slightly panicking" over Final Fantasy XVI pre-orders, tracking below Final Fantasy XV

[TheLeon]

Don’t know where I am with this game yet. Recently I’ve enjoyed the Pixel Remasters, but I haven’t been interested in modern FF for a while. I tried to get into XIV a couple times, but I just can’t do MMOs, even the “soloable” ones. 

[eventide11]

Well Squeenix should stop making FFs that they want us to play and start making FFs gamers want to play. IMHO they've lost touch with what gamers want in a story driven RPG

[best3444]

BTW, I played FF14 online for a few years and it had absolutely no effect on my buying decision on the sp games. 

 

15 was just dreadful so I was extremely disappointed by that. 16 is on another level by reading the new previews and I'm almost certain it will be a great FF game.

[thedarkstark]

56 minutes ago, eventide11 said:

Well Squeenix should stop making FFs that they want us to play and start making FFs gamers want to play. IMHO they've lost touch with what gamers want in a story driven RPG

Except you're wrong.

 

I prefer the turn-based games better but it's pretty much a dead genre that mostly only older gamers play. Final Fantasy 15 sold nearly 11 million copies, 2nd only to FF7. FF11 & 14 also sold extremely well and are the most profitable.

 

Obviously it doesnt have the same budget or name recognition but compare that to the paltry 1 million units Octopath 2 sold it's pretty obvious what the majority of gamers want in 2023.

 

We're just old. I think 99% of new music especially mumble rap is dogshit, but that's what sells. Yelling at clouds ain't going to change that.

[best3444]

7 minutes ago, thedarkstark said:

Except you're wrong.

 

I prefer the turn-based games better but it's pretty much a dead genre that mostly only older gamers play. Final Fantasy 15 sold nearly 11 million copies, 2nd only to FF7. FF11 & 14 also sold extremely well and are the most profitable.

 

Obviously it doesnt have the same budget or name recognition but compare that to the paltry 1 million units and Octopath 2 sold it's pretty obvious what the majority of gamers want in 2023.

 

We're just old. I think 99% of new music especially mumble rap is dogshit, but that's what sells. Yelling at clouds ain't going to change that.

 

You make me laugh a lot recently. I mean this in a positive way and I appreciate it. 

[eventide11]

33 minutes ago, thedarkstark said:

Except you're wrong.

 

I prefer the turn-based games better but it's pretty much a dead genre that mostly only older gamers play. Final Fantasy 15 sold nearly 11 million copies, 2nd only to FF7. FF11 & 14 also sold extremely well and are the most profitable.

 

Obviously it doesnt have the same budget or name recognition but compare that to the paltry 1 million units Octopath 2 sold it's pretty obvious what the majority of gamers want in 2023.

 

We're just old. I think 99% of new music especially mumble rap is dogshit, but that's what sells. Yelling at clouds ain't going to change that.

Except turn based games still sell pretty well. And I don't want FF to necassarily go back there. FF12 had my favorite battle system in the series. They just try waaay too hard to be cool and relevant at the expense of gameplay. And FF15 sold well because it was Final Fantasy, not because it was a good game. It died out faster than HD DVD. FF14 should be the evolving model they use going forward but differentiate it by not making it an MMO

[eventide11]

But I agree, I am getting old. I'm not the pulse of gaming anymore. I have specific tastes and things that make me keep playing a game unlike what the 'kids' care about. The things I like in games are dying a slow death. I'm just hanging on as long as I can 

[thedarkstark]

5 minutes ago, eventide11 said:

But I agree, I am getting old. I'm not the pulse of gaming anymore. I have specific tastes and things that make me keep playing a game unlike what the 'kids' care about. The things I like in games are dying a slow death. I'm just hanging on as long as I can 

Same, and yeah I agree 15 wasn't a good game and 12 also had my favorite battle system but that's just not what big budget rpgs are anymore and I've come to terms with that. I'm just glad they finally have a director with a vision that they stuck to and they hired very competent people to work on the battle system. We'll see how it turns out soon.

[legend]

1 hour ago, eventide11 said:

Well Squeenix should stop making FFs that they want us to play and start making FFs gamers want to play. IMHO they've lost touch with what gamers want in a story driven RPG

 

I would prefer the third option: they make games that they want to play.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, thedarkstark said:

I prefer the turn-based games better but it's pretty much a dead genre that mostly only older gamers play.

 

 

The billions of people playing Honkai says otherwise.

[thedarkstark]

11 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

 

The billions of people playing Honkai says otherwise.

Not a full price  $70 game, nowhere remotely close to a billion people playing.

[Bacon]

Turned-based FF's should be made with a smaller budget. I'm not a fan of the Octopath games including their art style, but Bravely Default is pretty much there, but it could be more of what I wanted. FF hasn't shied away from spin-offs in the past. Some of those FFs were great games enjoyed by plenty. I don't get why they have stopped making them.

[thedarkstark]

5 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Turned-based FF's should be made with a smaller budget. I'm not a fan of the Octopath games including their art style, but Bravely Default is pretty much there, but it could be more of what I wanted. FF hasn't shied away from spin-offs in the past. Some of those FFs were great games enjoyed by plenty. I don't get why they have stopped making them.

I really like the bravely games and I agree it'd be great if they made more but like octopath BD2 only sold just over a million copies. I'm sure with the much lower budget they're still getting nice profit but they may not see it as priority because they can make some shitty mobile game with 99% reused assets for 1/10th the cost and get the same or better ROI.

[Xbob42]

4 hours ago, thedarkstark said:

Except you're wrong.

 

I prefer the turn-based games better but it's pretty much a dead genre that mostly only older gamers play. Final Fantasy 15 sold nearly 11 million copies, 2nd only to FF7. FF11 & 14 also sold extremely well and are the most profitable.

 

Obviously it doesnt have the same budget or name recognition but compare that to the paltry 1 million units Octopath 2 sold it's pretty obvious what the majority of gamers want in 2023.

 

We're just old. I think 99% of new music especially mumble rap is dogshit, but that's what sells. Yelling at clouds ain't going to change that.

P
O
K
E
M

O
N

 

Of course there's always some dumbass excuse, but the truth is turn-based doesn't sell poorly, Square Enix just doesn't make big budget turn-based games, and big budget games with big marketing campaigns sell more than their titles almost no one hears about like Octopath.

 

 

Fuck this fucking no one wants turn-based combat narrative, it's horse shit.

[thedarkstark]

14 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

P
O
K
E
M

O
N

 

Of course there's always some dumbass excuse, but the truth is turn-based doesn't sell poorly, Square Enix just doesn't make big budget turn-based games, and big budget games with big marketing campaigns sell more than their titles almost no one hears about like Octopath.

Pokemon is such an outlier though, it's one of the most recognizable things in pop culture period. Like you could ask 10 random people on the street and 9/10 would be able to name at least 1 pokemon. No other RPG of any kind has ever or will ever have that type of mainstream appeal. It was already very popular but the cartoons and trading cards vaulted it into the stratosphere.

 

I definitely agree budget & marketing have a lot to do with how successful a game would or could be but like the most successful turn-based game I can think of in the last 15 years is Fire Emblem 3 houses sold 4 million copies and then the very next entry in the series (Engage) is right back to normal sales (1.5 mill)

 

With how bloated production costs on a massive mainline FF game I don't really see them being able to generate a profit on a turn-based game anymore but I'd love to see it happen.

[Bacon]

Eh, I feel Honkai Rail is the better example.

 

Well, I was going to say that Pokemon could be any genre of RPG and it would sell. And by that, I mean the flagship titles. But I actually wonder if Pokemon really only works as a turned-based RPG due to the nature of how the player wishes to do battle and use Pokemon.

 

But there are other points in Pokemon's favor that FF has never really had. Mainly the idea of building a team and catching the monsters that appeal to you as a player. Pokemon as enough monsters of every type that people of all ages and gender wish to engage with. FF has a far more limited audience.

[Xbob42]

20 minutes ago, thedarkstark said:

I definitely agree budget & marketing have a lot to do with how successful a game would or could be but like the most successful turn-based game I can think of in the last 15 years is Fire Emblem 3 houses sold 4 million copies and then the very next entry in the series (Engage) is right back to normal sales (1.5 mill)

...Dragon Quest XI sold 6 million copies.

 

Persona 5 sold 7.2 million copies.

 

Civ 5 sold 8 million, although I'd understand that being different enough to not count.

 

Darkest Dungeon sold 6 million, and according to this Google blurb, if you count DLC it sold "16 million" whatever the hell that means.

 

Mario + Rabbids 7.5 million.

 

Pixel Remasters 2 million (way more than I would've guessed)

 

Yakuza 7 was "the most successful Yakuza game internationally" whatever that means.

 

I know the devs for Baldur's Gate 3 have said the early access sales numbers have been "insane," again, whatever that means. Sales are currently estimated between 2-5 million.

 

We're not exactly overflowing with ultra-high selling turn-based games, but the idea that the public's not interested just seems completely wrong to me. When devs take the time to make them fun and interesting (or Pokemon) then they seem to do alright.

Also worth noting that if you dig into the narrative for these and many other games with less impressive numbers, they tend to be hailed as resounding successes. Probably because it doesn't take them 10 years to develop and then a $600 million ad campaign and tie-in with Ramen Noodles to get the game to enough people to break even. Bravely Default is 10 times the game FFXV could ever be and it was made on a shoestring budget.

[Remarkableriots]

2 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

...Dragon Quest XI sold 6 million copies.

 

Persona 5 sold 7.2 million copies.

 

Civ 5 sold 8 million, although I'd understand that being different enough to not count.

 

Darkest Dungeon sold 6 million, and according to this Google blurb, if you count DLC it sold "16 million" whatever the hell that means.

 

Mario + Rabbids 7.5 million.

 

Pixel Remasters 2 million (way more than I would've guessed)

 

Yakuza 7 was "the most successful Yakuza game internationally" whatever that means.

 

We're not exactly overflowing with ultra-high selling turn-based games, but the idea that the public's not interested just seems completely wrong to me. When devs take the time to make them fun and interesting (or Pokemon) then they seem to do alright.

I'm currently playing Dragon Quest XI.

[Xbob42]

1 minute ago, Remarkableriots said:

I'm currently playing Dragon Quest XI.

It's damn good! Even for me, someone who doesn't usually like Dragon Quest. It's not incredible to me or anything, but it's a real solid game.

[Bacon]

SE really be thinking they can sell like a Sony-owned developer but fail to put out like a Sony dev.

[Bacon]

Also, I'd bet money that if SE put out a turn-based FF with cutscenes on par with the FFXIV trailers it would sell well. Growing up, cutscenes were the identity of FF. I've always felt that it was a shame they did away with them. I still think such a spectacle would sell. Cutscenes were this moment where a player (like me) would go, "Man, I can't wait to play a game that looks like this!" That is a harder thing to do now, with most games looking really darn good, but I'd love to see SE try to pull it off.

 

I am just a sucker for some CG. The whole reason I bought Dragon Age was because of the Scared Ashes trailer. Same reason I was hyped for SWTOR. Those trailers were the best thing about SWTOR. I can't wait for the 7.0 trailer to drop for FFXIV.

[Remarkableriots]

15 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

It's damn good! Even for me, someone who doesn't usually like Dragon Quest. It's not incredible to me or anything, but it's a real solid game.

I've been playing a lot of games from my backlog that I put off while playing Final Fantasy XIV far too often, which I haven't been playing since last year. I'm definitely enjoying it so far, and it was easy to continue where I left off since they do a recap.

[Xbob42]

16 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Also, I'd bet money that if SE put out a turn-based FF with cutscenes on par with the FFXIV trailers it would sell well. Growing up, cutscenes were the identity of FF. I've always felt that it was a shame they did away with them. I still think such a spectacle would sell. Cutscenes were this moment where a player (like me) would go, "Man, I can't wait to play a game that looks like this!" That is a harder thing to do now, with most games looking really darn good, but I'd love to see SE try to pull it off.

I think a turn-based game would do fantastic. Would it be the best selling FF ever? I dunno, maybe if they marketed it right and made it fun and made sure to include a bunch of internet bait like waifus and feet and that kind of crap. Believe it or not, the Final Fantasy franchise has a ton of casual fans, and I can't imagine a lot of them are going to take super well to an action game that might actually pose a challenge. For whatever FFXV's faults, they made sure to keep 99% of it piss easy to the point you had to self-impose rules if you wanted to be able to lose. And the actual gameplay most of the time was hold down circle + move the control stick, something simple enough for even the most casual Deviant Art artists, which I imagine is like 65% of the audience.

 

To be clear, I don't like how easy Square Enix's mainline turn-based games are, and I'm not endorsing easy turn-based games because then you run directly into boring territory, I'm more talking about the dexterity needed to play a turn-based game vs a Devil May Cry style game with 15 minute boss fights.

[Bacon]

I do worry about 16 being too easy. I dislike they are locking the hard mode behind beating the game. That is such dumb bullshit that I thought I had been thankfully left behind in 2010. And yet here comes SE acting like they are doing us a favor. I suppose the hard mode could just be outrageously difficult, and the normal mode bosses already seem to have plenty of health, so maybe it will be OK in the end, but I'm not the kind of guy that plays a game twice. There are games that I do play more than twice, but those are rare, often with minimal story and build variance. FF16 got a billion hours of cutscenes, which is great for a first playthrough, and you play as a swordsman with magic. Like, I think Sekiro is a great game, but I doubt I ever play it again and that's OK. On the other hand, I've beaten Dark Soul and Demon's Souls numerous times.

[Bacon]

Just saw that Octopath 2 hit 1m units sold

[Xbob42]

11 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Just saw that Octopath 2 hit 1m units sold

Yeah, not bad at all. Doesn't sound as impressive as 10 million, but I guarantee FFXV cost Square Enix a lot more than 10x the cost of Octopath 2! 

 

I also hate hard modes being locked behind beating the game. I almost never play any game to the credits more than once, so unless it's Resident Evil, Dead Space or maybe a shorter indie game it just means that mode goes to waste.

[thedarkstark]

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

...Dragon Quest XI sold 6 million copies.

 

Persona 5 sold 7.2 million copies.

 

Civ 5 sold 8 million, although I'd understand that being different enough to not count.

 

Darkest Dungeon sold 6 million, and according to this Google blurb, if you count DLC it sold "16 million" whatever the hell that means.

 

Mario + Rabbids 7.5 million.

 

Pixel Remasters 2 million (way more than I would've guessed)

 

Yakuza 7 was "the most successful Yakuza game internationally" whatever that means.

 

I know the devs for Baldur's Gate 3 have said the early access sales numbers have been "insane," again, whatever that means. Sales are currently estimated between 2-5 million.

 

 

So here's the thing if we're talking about a mainline FF game, we know they're spending tens of millions if not hundreds of millions on CGI sequences alone, it's just what they do and it's part of what makes Final Fantasy unique. How many copies would a game with that type of budget need to sell to break even? 5 million? 8 million? I know it's a fucking lot.

 

DQ11 - a little surprised by those numbers but I know it's way more popular in the East so not shocked but again miniscule budget.

 

Persona 5 - Does that number include all 13 different versions that they've released? Again definitely way lower budget than FF17 would be.

 

Yakuza - I think this is the one that comes closest in budget, but no actual numbers would definitely be curious.

 

The rest don't count, either totally different genre or not a full priced game.

 

It's not that I think there's zero interest in a turn-based game, but they don't really have the casual gamer appeal that action RPGs have garnered (Witcher 3 hit 50 million, Elden Ring is at 20). Again the main thing that would keep a true turn-based mainline game from being viable is cost/sales ratio. I'd love to be wrong but as long as they keep pumping out lower budget bangers like Bravely Default I'll be happy.

[Remarkableriots]

30 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I do worry about 16 being too easy. I dislike they are locking the hard mode behind beating the game. That is such dumb bullshit that I thought I had been thankfully left behind in 2010. And yet here comes SE acting like they are doing us a favor. I suppose the hard mode could just be outrageously difficult, and the normal mode bosses already seem to have plenty of health, so maybe it will be OK in the end, but I'm not the kind of guy that plays a game twice. There are games that I do play more than twice, but those are rare, often with minimal story and build variance. FF16 got a billion hours of cutscenes, which is great for a first playthrough, and you play as a swordsman with magic. Like, I think Sekiro is a great game, but I doubt I ever play it again and that's OK. On the other hand, I've beaten Dark Soul and Demon's Souls numerous times.

If it's anything like Final Fantasy VII Remake, you would get destroyed on hard mode. You can't use any items, and MP usage has to be limited because it doesn't replenish at save spots. The enemies do massive amounts of damage even at level cap, so at level 1, you would get slaughtered.

[Bacon]

2 minutes ago, thedarkstark said:

we know they're spending tens of millions if not hundreds of millions on CGI sequences alone

I mean, they are now made in-engine, like with GoW or TLOU. Sure it costs money, but not to the extent of actual CGI cutscenes like they used to be. FF16 won't have a bunch of cutscenes of the same visual quality as an FF14 trailer.

[Bacon]

7 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

you would get slaughtered

doubt it

at least not any more than a Souls game

 

 

Edit: while turned-based games are generally on the easier side, I already don't use items in FF games. I'm playing through FF4 3D remake on Hard, and while still pretty easy, the only times I use items are after a battle cuz no point on spending 15MP to cure blind when an 80 gil item will do the trick.

[Remarkableriots]

8 minutes ago, Bacon said:

doubt it

at least not any more than a Souls game

Did you beat Weiss?

[thedarkstark]

8 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I mean, they are now made in-engine, like with GoW or TLOU. Sure it costs money, but not to the extent of actual CGI cutscenes like they used to be. FF16 won't have a bunch of cutscenes of the same visual quality as an FF14 trailer.

Final Fantasy 16 Cutscenes Longer Than Entire Lord of the Rings Trilogy Runtime

GAMERANT.COM

---

Square Enix producer Naoki Yoshida reveals that the upcoming Final Fantasy 16 will have several hours of cutscenes.

Even if it's all rendered in-engine that's a lot of time & a lot of dialogue

[Keyser_Soze]

4 hours ago, thedarkstark said:

Not a full price  $70 game, nowhere remotely close to a billion people playing.

 

You said dead genre not $70 game.

[Bacon]

2 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

Did you beat Weiss?

Is that an FF7R boss? I have no interest in ever playing FF7R as I have said numerous times. I'm sure the boss is hard, but D1P isn't always the best at games.

[thedarkstark]

4 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

You said dead genre not $70 game.

Relative to other games in the same genre (action RPG as opposed to turn-based) yeah they're pretty dead.

 

Persona 5's 7.5 million to Witcher 3's 50 million. As much as I hate it these companies only exist to make money, why would a studio as big as Squenix dump the kind of budget into a game with an almost 10x smaller player base?