Nintendo So Origami King wasn't exactly the return to form we were hoping for, is that a bad thing? Do JRPGs need to have experience gains?

[Bjomesphat]

I've been playing Origami King for awhile now and really loving it. I was initially turned off after finding out that yet again, Paper Mario would have meaningless battles, lack of party members, and little in the way of equipment/item management. Basically all the gameplay tropes of a standard JRPG that Nintendo has abandoned since TTYD. But now after completing half of the game so far, I'm not so sure I want traditional JRPG mechanics in this. It's actually kind of a relief knowing there isn't some arbitrary experience level you need to be at determined by the amount of enemies defeated, in order to beat the game. I can go through the game, avoid every enemy, and be just as prepared for every boss had I defeated everything along the way.

 

With that said, I don't think Nintendo can get away with this in every situation, as evident by previous Paper Mario entries. Origami King fortunately has a fantastic battle system which is crucial. Every encounter has a unique puzzle to solve, and it's really engaging. Sure, you start to notice patterns pretty quickly and can solve the puzzles pretty fast as you progress, but bosses are always a blast and reversing the battle system is brilliant. I'd still like to see them attempt this kind of puzzle battle system while also keeping a cast of party members. And I do think they can implement a better equipment system, but overall this is a great step in the right direction.

 

So anyway, this got me thinking. I think I'd love a standard JRPG, but with experience-less battles. For a lot of JRPGs, regular battles become more about the grind to progress the story than anything else. If you're not at the level the game expects you for a boss, it's going to be a frustrating experience. Whereas taking out the necessity to do battle along the way can reduce the monotony that often comes with JRPGs. Even the best ones.

 

So what do you think? Are you on board with more Paper Mario's like this? Would you want a traditional JRPG to have meaningless battles if the battle system mechanic was rewarding in it's own way?

[TheLeon]

I’m a simpleton that likes watching numbers go up, so I might miss that, but constant boring normal/random encounters is one of the biggest things that will turn me off of an RPG. I would give it a shot. 

[stepee]

I didn’t mind it as much as some people, and really enjoyed the game, but I prefer the more traditional route for the series still. I mean, they could give just one more of those after like twenty years then go back to experimenting maybe.

[XxEvil AshxX]

I mean, sure, I guess. You're gonna have to sell me on a battle system that's rewarding "in its own way" though. If I'm not getting XP, what's it rewarding me with? Money? Better items? Cuz there's gotta be something or else I'm skipping all the way to the end.

 

I don't play many JRPG's anymore. Not that I don't like them, but there are just so many generic ones out there I stopped paying attention. I still love me the occasional Tales release, and I'll play something if it looks good (most of them don't). Some of the ones I've played recently have enough going on in the early game in the way of side quests and activities where doing them in addition to a little light grinding at the beginning puts you ahead of the curve for most of the game. For a lot of them, the battles ARE the game, and if you don't want to do it, why are you playing?

 

Then there are the games like Shining Resonance Refrain where the entire game is literally just one long grind. Games like that can fuck right off.

[Paperclyp]

I would like them to do another Thousand Year Door style game, I don’t even care if it’s set in the mario universe. But put your A team on a game like that and you’ll have my money. I just can’t quite get myself to go with that gimmicky battle system, and with Nintendo’s refusal to ever discount their games deeply I just doubt I’ll ever play it.

[Bjomesphat]

12 minutes ago, XxEvil AshxX said:

I mean, sure, I guess. You're gonna have to sell me on a battle system that's rewarding "in its own way" though. If I'm not getting XP, what's it rewarding me with? Money? Better items? Cuz there's gotta be something or else I'm skipping all the way to the end.

 

I don't play many JRPG's anymore. Not that I don't like them, but there are just so many generic ones out there I stopped paying attention. I still love me the occasional Tales release, and I'll play something if it looks good (most of them don't). Some of the ones I've played recently have enough going on in the early game in the way of side quests and activities where doing them in addition to a little light grinding at the beginning puts you ahead of the curve for most of the game. For a lot of them, the battles ARE the game, and if you don't want to do it, why are you playing?

 

Then there are the games like Shining Resonance Refrain where the entire game is literally just one long grind. Games like that can fuck right off.

 

In Origami King you're only rewarded with money. You use money to buy items (either healing or attack-based) and accessories (increase battle time limit, increase health in battle, defense buffs, etc). I've found you rarely need to buy items, as you can find a lot hidden throughout the game. And the accessories are nice, but mostly just make battles more forgiving. Everything is expensive though, which necessitates battling if you need to buy stuff.

 

I do actively avoid battles as much as possible, which can be difficult sometimes, but I'm never mad or bored going into a battle because it's just really fun.

 

I do think they're on to something though. And I think a system that doesn't require a single battle, but at the same time grants a strong reward for battling could make for a great game. The last two JRPGs I played was DQXI and Xenoblade 2. I love DQ battle systems for their tried and true simplicity, and I love the XC2 battle system for its insane complexity. But for both of those games, standard battles eventually become tiresome as you find your rhythm and rinse and repeat for a lot of the game, but they're still a necessity otherwise you will get demolished by the bosses.

[Bjomesphat]

6 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

I would like them to do another Thousand Year Door style game, I don’t even care if it’s set in the mario universe. But put your A team on a game like that and you’ll have my money. I just can’t quite get myself to go with that gimmicky battle system, and with Nintendo’s refusal to ever discount their games deeply I just doubt I’ll ever play it.

 

I only picked it up because it was half off at Target briefly. Otherwise, I was in the same boat as you.

 

The story is really charming and funny, the music is awesome, it's a blast exploring every world, and if you like puzzles, the battles are super fun. The bosses are the standout though and actually require a good bit of thought and strategy.

[TwinIon]

I also haven't played Origami King, but puzzle based combat sounds interesting. Experience and/or gear acquisition really do help with the feeling of progression in games. Yes, you're progressing through the story, but part of the role you're playing is that you get stronger through the experiences you have. This serves two purposes, as a reward to the player for their time and effort, and serve to open new game play opportunities (new gear / abilities, new ways to fight, etc.)

 

I don't think it's impossible to design a JRPG without these things, and would be surprised if there aren't a few out there, but I think player progression is really important. I want to feel like I'm becoming more powerful. Especially in traditional menu based battles, you don't get much "better" at the game in the same way you might for more action oriented games. I like earning that new weapon or putting my skill points to get that new spell.

 

I do think a lot of JRPGs especially do a poor job of level scaling and rely on too many battles to pad the length out. Even FF7R (which has a great battle system as is a game I really enjoyed) spends far too much time throwing pointless battles at you seemingly out of habit. I'm right on board with you when you say that a lot of these games could be streamlined and lose the grind, but I don't think they can take away experience or gear upgrades completely without losing a key element that makes the games engaging.

[XxEvil AshxX]

41 minutes ago, Bjomesphat said:

 

In Origami King you're only rewarded with money. You use money to buy items (either healing or attack-based) and accessories (increase battle time limit, increase health in battle, defense buffs, etc). I've found you rarely need to buy items, as you can find a lot hidden throughout the game. And the accessories are nice, but mostly just make battles more forgiving. Everything is expensive though, which necessitates battling if you need to buy stuff.

 

I do actively avoid battles as much as possible, which can be difficult sometimes, but I'm never mad or bored going into a battle because it's just really fun.

 

I do think they're on to something though. And I think a system that doesn't require a single battle, but at the same time grants a strong reward for battling could make for a great game. The last two JRPGs I played was DQXI and Xenoblade 2. I love DQ battle systems for their tried and true simplicity, and I love the XC2 battle system for its insane complexity. But for both of those games, standard battles eventually become tiresome as you find your rhythm and rinse and repeat for a lot of the game, but they're still a necessity otherwise you will get demolished by the bosses.

 

Honestly, reading that I feel like it makes the better case for money in games. 99% of most of the RPG's I play, both western and JRPG's, have completely useless economies. Look at Skyrim. Why is there even money in that game? Why do merchants even exist? Have you ever bought an iron dagger in Skyrim with the intent to actually use it? 

 

I'm playing The Ascent right now and granted there are a number of issues with that game, but my buddy and I were just talking the other night about how the money in the game is pretty pointless. You get stacks and stacks of duplicates that you'll go and sell, but why? None of the merchants have anything remotely worth buying.

[Bjomesphat]

37 minutes ago, XxEvil AshxX said:

 

Honestly, reading that I feel like it makes the better case for money in games. 99% of most of the RPG's I play, both western and JRPG's, have completely useless economies. Look at Skyrim. Why is there even money in that game? Why do merchants even exist? Have you ever bought an iron dagger in Skyrim with the intent to actually use it? 

 

I'm playing The Ascent right now and granted there are a number of issues with that game, but my buddy and I were just talking the other night about how the money in the game is pretty pointless. You get stacks and stacks of duplicates that you'll go and sell, but why? None of the merchants have anything remotely worth buying.

 

Definitely agree on that. For western RPGs, all of the good items are loot you find on quests or exploring. In JRPGs, you enter a new town, buy all of the new gear, sell your old stuff, rinse and repeat for the rest of the game.

[Brian]

One of my favorite battle systems in a RPG didn’t have items or real leveling. It’s a basic match three to attack or defend but gets more complex with new units and abilities. The game also didn’t have random battles. It has a finite amount of fights which allows the devs to fine tune the challenge. 
 

If you never played Might and Magic Clash of Heroes, I totally recommend it. It’s available through BC on Xbox or mobile. 
 

 

[Xbob42]

I found the "puzzle" mechanics in normal battles insultingly simplistic, which, combined with a terrible reward structure, made normal battles very unfun to me. And if I want to skip all the non-boss battles in your RPG where like 50% of the game is combat (and like 90% of the actual gameplay) then what are we doing? Why are there battles at all?

 

Frankly at this point I find it extremely irritating that they keep insisting on reinventing the wheel and failing spectacularly every single time. I'm glad you enjoyed it at least, but there's a reason no one talks about this game like they do TTYD. I find their development style to be nothing but subtractive. They take away experience, they take away interesting abilities and items, they take away party members, sometimes they take away all characters except fucking Toad like in Color Splash. 

 

And what do we get in return? They create a void and what do they fill it with? A middling ring spinning minigame meant to replace combat. A goddamn Mario Party quality minigame. 

 

Bosses are much better but bosses aren't most of the game. 

[BloodyHell]

I really, really disliked the game. It just didn't hold my interest. I think Xbob42 just described the battle system better than I ever could. "Insulting".

[stepee]

On 8/9/2021 at 12:41 PM, Xbob42 said:

I found the "puzzle" mechanics in normal battles insultingly simplistic, which, combined with a terrible reward structure, made normal battles very unfun to me. And if I want to skip all the non-boss battles in your RPG where like 50% of the game is combat (and like 90% of the actual gameplay) then what are we doing? Why are there battles at all?

 

Frankly at this point I find it extremely irritating that they keep insisting on reinventing the wheel and failing spectacularly every single time. I'm glad you enjoyed it at least, but there's a reason no one talks about this game like they do TTYD. I find their development style to be nothing but subtractive. They take away experience, they take away interesting abilities and items, they take away party members, sometimes they take away all characters except fucking Toad like in Color Splash. 

 

And what do we get in return? They create a void and what do they fill it with? A middling ring spinning minigame meant to replace combat. A goddamn Mario Party quality minigame. 

 

Bosses are much better but bosses aren't most of the game. 

 

The bosses are super fun tho! Honestly the whole stripping away any individuality from mushroom kingdom characters is the most annoying thing to me and the only way that can change is to reverse that dumb ass policy because it’s negatively affecting everything now (looking at you, shitty Mario Golf npcs).

 

It makes no sense that you can’t have unique new toads in the game and they all have to be like clones or whatever. It’s a dumb decision and it doesn’t help in whatever way they think branding wise, it’s a solution that created a problem.

[BloodyHell]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:10 PM, stepee said:

 

The bosses are super fun tho! Honestly the whole stripping away any individuality from mushroom kingdom characters is the most annoying thing to me and the only way that can change is to reverse that dumb ass policy because it’s negatively affecting everything now (looking at you, shitty Mario Golf npcs).

 

It makes no sense that you can’t have unique new toads in the game and they all have to be like clones or whatever. It’s a dumb decision and it doesn’t help in whatever way they think branding wise, it’s a solution that created a problem.

Nintendo really has been messing up spinoff games. Origami King, to me, was terrible. Mario Golf was the worst entry in the series with almost no content. I just don't get it.

[Bjomesphat]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:41 PM, Xbob42 said:

I found the "puzzle" mechanics in normal battles insultingly simplistic, which, combined with a terrible reward structure, made normal battles very unfun to me. And if I want to skip all the non-boss battles in your RPG where like 50% of the game is combat (and like 90% of the actual gameplay) then what are we doing? Why are there battles at all?

 

Frankly at this point I find it extremely irritating that they keep insisting on reinventing the wheel and failing spectacularly every single time. I'm glad you enjoyed it at least, but there's a reason no one talks about this game like they do TTYD. I find their development style to be nothing but subtractive. They take away experience, they take away interesting abilities and items, they take away party members, sometimes they take away all characters except fucking Toad like in Color Splash. 

 

And what do we get in return? They create a void and what do they fill it with? A middling ring spinning minigame meant to replace combat. A goddamn Mario Party quality minigame. 

 

Bosses are much better but bosses aren't most of the game. 

 

I've mostly only heard positive things on this game from podcasts and message boards.

 

There's also plenty of regular battles, especially later game, that have pretty challenging solutions. Sometimes I just end up not solving it because I can't figure it out in time.

 

And lets be real, the combat in PM64 and TTYD isn't exactly deep or challenging. You're just going through the motions for regular enemies with almost zero risk. It gets old quickly. Those games would probably be even better with some kind of combat system that makes regular enemies unnecessary. I'm not saying Origami King has the perfect solution, but I think they're on to something.

 

But I do think @stepee is right about why PM and TTYD are better games, the characters are far more interesting. I actually do find all of the toads you find to be pretty endearing, but Mario RPG games need to have unique characters with personalities. That's one reason why Mario RPG is still considered the best by many.

[Nokt]

Experience gains are just the standard when it comes to player progression and reward system. Along with things like equip-able items and abilities.

Do RPG's need xp gains? No, but they do need some kind of player progression and reward system. An interesting combat system can only go so far especially in a 40+ hour game.

I think the issue with most RPG's is that none of them do a great job of balancing the need to not run away from battles and at the same time not needing to grind out battles.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Rachel said:

Yeah idk why people are pretending like the battle system is what made origami king a disappointment. It was the boring story. 

I enjoyed Bobby but the rest was boring.