General Gaming Best Gaming Graphics of 2020, Best Games of 2020, and Best PC Games of 2020 (Digital Foundry) and Best Graphics/Technology of 2020 (NX Gamer)

[Bloodporne]

2 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I was amazed from the get-go, especially when I compared it to Bloodborne's character creation screen and remembering how I thought, "Huh, looks different than I expected," when I saw it.

 

Not a knock on that game because it's up there as one of my favs of last gen; I'm just talking graphically. 

 

I'll echo what xbob said about being built for fast loads. I didn't have a PS5 yet, so I had to just kind of imagine what he meant when he said the load times in Demon's Souls were refreshing because they were built for fast load screens whereas the quick loading on PC was clearly made for games expecting load screens, which is why you always had hints on it.

 

I kind of understood it, but seeing the fog quickly get you from one world to another is atmospheric, a nice touch, and yes, clearly what the game was made to do instead of, "If a boss attacks you, press L2 to parry."

 

And again, not a knock on the game because I fucking love it and I'm sure I'll play it again this year, but I remember Bloodborne's load times initially and am doubly impressed.

 

Launch Bloodborne load times were fucking crippling. Even post-patch, they were something like 45 seconds easy I think. From games are kings of atmosphere and the load screens in Demon's Souls are yet another small way to enhance that and like you said, it's not just 'hard cut, load fast as fuck, hard cut'. 

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

 

As I've said multiple times now, reduced loading screen times aren't a big deal to me.  I'm more excited about what other opportunities the next-gen SSD tech opens up elsewhere in game design.  We haven't seen enough of that.

 

As I've said multiple times, if your reasoning is, "I had PC so I didn't say fucking finally to getting a solid state drive," and you're bringing up last-gen as a comparison point of the exciting possibilities of that gen, then it's a simple question: what did you see that was truly next-gen and had you excited last gen? You kept talking about the bullshot trailers, so what did you see if "But PC" is why you're not impressed now?

 

It's a simple question. 

[Duderino]

8 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

One would think that if it was being co-marketing with Xbox, that it would at least show remotely comparable footage of what it would look like on at least one of the Xbox consoles.  I am assuming that Microsoft had to approve the ad, and they had access to the game through the certification process.

Not a good look for either.  Unfortunate that there are not stricter rules against false advertising of this scale just before and after release.

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, Bloodporne said:

Launch Bloodborne load times were fucking crippling. Even post-patch, they were something like 45 seconds easy I think. From games are kings of atmosphere and the load screens in Demon's Souls are yet another small way to enhance that and like you said, it's not just 'hard cut, load fast as fuck, hard cut'. 

 

I thought if I was gonna look at something, seeing what items do was worthwhile, but I think the joke was that the loading screen was one of the hardest bosses in the game.  

[Bloodporne]

Just now, SaysWho? said:

 

I thought if I was gonna look at something, seeing what items do was worthwhile, but I think the joke was that the loading screen was one of the hardest bosses in the game.  

Funny enough, them patching in item descriptions in the load screens was probably the best patch they did on BB. 

[JPDunks4]

I mean, the Dirt Dev said the XB1 and PS4 gen was by far the most boring new gen he's ever worked on.  He said all the hardware was, was a beefier 360/PS3 basically, so games were exactly the same, just prettier.  He said from a development standpoint, there wasn't really much anything new to learn or new things to try in games.  He said this new generation is far far more exciting due to all the different improvements these boxes have.  And now developers can start thinking of new ways to design games and leverage the hardware.

 

I think some of you are forgetting we are in the midst of a pandemic as well.  Top priority probably isn't putting out gameplay trailers right now. 

 

The consoles are hyped as all hell, they are selling out faster than anyone can imagine.  They don't need to do more than what they've done, because the demand is there regardless.  

 

Also, what new game trailers did we see when the 30 series cards released showing off their promise?  All I saw was people playing last gen Doom I think at 8k to sell a $1500 card.  Why wasn't there a huge thread bitching about the lack of reasons to buy a new video card for far more money than a new console? 

[SaysWho?]

13 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

Funny enough, them patching in item descriptions in the load screens was probably the best patch they did on BB. 

 

I imported the Game of the Year Edition that had the Old Hunters on disc. It's probably one of my most treasured purchases because the base game by itself was lovely, but with Old Hunters, is was damn well perfect. I dunno if I like helping people with dungeons or Old Hunters more, but I spent hours upon hours just ringing the bell to co-op bosses like Lady Maria or Defiled Watchdog.

 

10 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

I mean, the Dirt Dev said the XB1 and PS4 gen was by far the most boring new gen he's ever worked on.  He said all the hardware was, was a beefier 360/PS3 basically, so games were exactly the same, just prettier.  He said from a development standpoint, there wasn't really much anything new to learn or new things to try in games.  He said this new generation is far far more exciting due to all the different improvements these boxes have.  And now developers can start thinking of new ways to design games and leverage the hardware.

 

I read the whole post, but specifically this part: this is why I'm confused about what we're talking about ITT. I can only assume I slipped into Bizarro World when last gen was uniformly hyped beyond measure with everyone excited about the future and totally not getting into countless arguments about how games aren't doing 60fps or the consoles being mid-range PCs.  

 

I mean I loved last gen, but nonstop excitement about the world of possibilities was totally not what the atmosphere was in totality early on. Yes, a lot of us were hyped about a lot of things, and the Share function was badass (but again was met with "But I was already streaming on PC"), but there was a lot of doubt as well, way more than now, because of this very mindset that the PS4/XB1 were doing what the previous gen did but way better.

[crispy4000]

28 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

As I've said multiple times, if your reasoning is, "I had PC so I didn't say fucking finally to getting a solid state drive," and you're bringing up last-gen as a comparison point of the exciting possibilities of that gen, 

 

I'll quote you on the rest in a moment.  But I want to clarify that even without a PC with a SSD, load times this gen never bothered me, largely due to the pause and resume rest feature in the PS4.  Getting a PC SSD wasn't a 'fucking finally' moment for me either, because it lacked pause and resume.  I bought the SSD mainly for performance gains in open world titles.
 

28 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

what did you see that was truly next-gen and had you excited last gen?

 

For starters.  I thought Ryse looked great too.  Battlefield V's demo, even though that ended up being bullshotty too, I think?

 

28 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

so what did you see if "But PC" is why you're not impressed now?

 

With loading times.  And as I've tried to clarify, I simply don't care that much about them.  Why would I be super excited?  I've played many cartridge games with zippy loading before, I know the difference.  I could get by with just pause and resume just fine.

PC is much of the same boat as the new consoles otherwise.  We have Cyperpunk and Control pushing things a bit further, perhaps, even though they're still cross-gen in some ways.  Beyond that, it's the same multiplatform future.  

PC has its own issues.  We haven't seen NVIDIA's GPU-SSD tech in action to compare with the consoles.  We haven't seen AMD's upscaling algorithm, for those planning on going Team Red.  Or their GPU-SSD answer, if they have (or need) one.

[Bloodporne]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I imported the Game of the Year Edition that had the Old Hunters on disc. It's probably one of my most treasured purchases because the base game by itself was lovely, but with Old Hunters, is was damn well perfect. I dunno if I like helping people with dungeons or Old Hunters more, but I spent hours upon hours just ringing the bell to co-op bosses like Lady Maria or Defiled Watchdog.

I think I'm one of the dozens that actually got super into the dungeons. They take too long to ramp up but once shit gets real, especially with Defiled etc., oh my goodness...the dungeon crawling and exclusive bosses are amazing. Also my favorite DLC ever, it actually fleshes the game out completely. 

 

Now let's collectively pray for some form of PS5 edition, patch whatever. 

[Mercury33]

Someone’s gonna need a big ass broom to clean up all the straw after all this is over lol

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

I'll quote you on the rest in a moment.  But I want to clarify that even without a PC with a SSD, load times this gen never bothered me, largely due to the pause and resume rest feature in the PS4.  Getting a PC SSD wasn't a 'fucking finally' moment for me either, because it lacked pause and resume.  I bought the SSD mainly for performance gains in open world titles.
 

 

For starters.  I thought Ryse looked great too.  Battlefield V's demo, even though that ended up being bullshotty too, I think?

 

 

Say it with me: with loading times.  And as I've tried to clarify, I simply don't care that much about them anyways.  Why would I be super excited about them?  I've played many cartridge games with zippy loading before, I know the difference.

PC is much of the same boat as the new consoles otherwise.  We have Cyperpunk and Control pushing things a bit further than we'll see on the consoles, perhaps, even though they're still cross-gen in some ways.  Beyond that, it's the same multiplatform future.  

PC has its own issues.  We haven't seen NVIDIA's GPU-SSD tech in action to compare with the consoles.  We haven't seen AMD's upscaling algorithm, for those planning on going Team Red.

 

Yes, I know you said loading times. Which is why I said, "Okay, you're not impressed because you had a PC with an SSD, so what did you see that a PC couldn't do last gen?"

 

Killzone and Ryse looked really good and all stuff you can do on a PC, so I assume you were excited because you maybe weren't playing on PC at the time?

 

Cuz I looked at Demon's Souls and Ratchet and thought the same thing: really impressed. 

[Bloodporne]

5 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Someone’s gonna need a big ass broom to clean up all the straw after all this is over lol

[crispy4000]

 

16 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Killzone and Ryse looked really good and all stuff you can do on a PC, so I assume you were excited because you maybe weren't playing on PC at the time?

 

Probably should stop assuming then.  I thought that Killzone: Shadowfall demo looked better than anything made for the prior gen.  PC or console.  Same with Ryse.

[SaysWho?]

3 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

 

Probably should stop assuming then.  I thought that Killzone: Shadowfall demo looked better beyond anything made for the prior gen.  PC or console.  Same with Ryse.

 

Okay, so you just didn't know what you were looking at if you thought that.  

 

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't gaming on PC because that's the only way what you're saying ITT makes any sense, but now it's just become more confusing since your entire argument is based on trailers doing bullshots and an incorrect assumption as to what you were seeing and fundamental misunderstanding as to the gaming atmosphere in 2013/2014.

[SaysWho?]

11 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I think I'm one of the dozens that actually got super into the dungeons. They take too long to ramp up but once shit gets real, especially with Defiled etc., oh my goodness...the dungeon crawling and exclusive bosses are amazing. Also my favorite DLC ever, it actually fleshes the game out completely. 

 

Now let's collectively pray for some form of PS5 edition, patch whatever. 

 

brb just came in my pants

[crispy4000]

11 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Okay, so you just didn't know what you were looking at if you thought that.  

 

Instead of just laughing it off, why not give some examples.  What PC games at the time do you think looked more next-gen than those two demos?  Witcher 2?  GTAV?

 

11 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't gaming on PC because that's the only way what you're saying ITT makes any sense, but now it's just become more confusing since your entire argument is based on trailers doing bullshots and an incorrect assumption as to what you were seeing and fundamental misunderstanding as to the gaming atmosphere in 2013/2014.

 

I'll just quote Duderino, since it summarizes my thoughts:  "There has been less attempts at passing off target renders as gameplay, but also fewer demonstrations, even if smoke and mirrors, of what next gen enables devs to accomplish."

[SaysWho?]

Just now, crispy4000 said:

 

Instead of just laughing it off, why not give some examples.  What PC games at the time do you think looked more next-gen than those two demos?  Witcher 2?

 

 

 

I'll just quote Duderino again, since that summarizes my thoughts:  "There has been less attempts at passing off target renders as gameplay, but also fewer demonstrations, even if smoke and mirrors, of what next gen enables devs to accomplish."

 

Something like Crysis 3 running on a PC. You're currently arguing that a 900p 26-28fps on-rails Ryse is better than anything else you saw on anything at the time. I don't know what else to tell you, but that's not true. Reminds me of the, "If PS4 is more powerful, why is Ryse the best looking game on consoles?" I mean, I guess you can be "better looking" by going sub-1080p and not hitting 30fps all the time in a linear game, but that's one component, and it's why something like Demon's Souls, which its lightning quick load and impressive tech, is more notable with its mostly stable frame rate as a launch game. Even Miles Morales looks fucking amazing on PS5.

 

Also, don't quote others, man: you've made 100 different points in the thread and now your argument basically boils down to being impressed with KZ and Ryse and getting excited at the time over fake demos of other games and a nothing trailer of UC4 which you backtracked on after I reminded you how long it took to see actual gameplay. That isn't what you said and isn't what you're arguing. 

[crispy4000]

Just for kicks, here was another 'next-gen moment' I remember from the start of the previous gen.

 

 

I never actually played the game, but dang, it actually made it into the final product.  Highly scripted, obviously.  But you could be in that building.

[SaysWho?]

  

13 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Just for kicks, here was another 'next-gen moment' I remember from the start of the previous gen.

 

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

 

I never actually played the game, but dang, it actually made it into the final product.  Highly scripted, obviously.  But you could be in that building.

 

I'm glad you were excited! But we're kind of back to, "I liked how this looked," which is quite different than all this cross-gen, bullshot, PC talk.

 

That was also cross-gen, which I thought you didn't like?

[SaysWho?]

Yeah, like wtf? We're having this cross-gen discussion but you just shared a video of something that happened on a PS3, too.

 

 

How was that next-gen?!?!?!

 

[BloodyHell]

4 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Yeah, like wtf? We're having this cross-gen discussion but you just shared a video of something that happened on a PS3, too.

 

 

How was that next-gen?!?!?!

 

At this point, he just refuses to admit he's wrong. 

[BloodyHell]

2 hours ago, Duderino said:

The mid cycle Pro and OneX were partially possible due to the performance per dollar gains going from 28 nm to 16 nm. The Series X and PS5 are at 7 nm now.  There is no guarantee that the next leap will come within a similar timeframe to the pro/x or provide the same value proposition for the console makers.

 

With soo many gamers embracing the mid-cycle console upgrades this gen, it’s a fair assumption that both Sony/ms will want to pursue it again.  While it could happen, the conditions still need to be just right.  IMO, it’s not a foregone conclusion that we’ll get mid-cycle refreshes.  Even if we do, they may not resemble the same leap we saw with the pro/x.

Considering Sony has never given numbers for the pro alone, I doubt it's as successful as you think, aside from with the more "hardcore" like us, who participate in forums and such. I agree with most everything else you said though.

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

At this point, he just refuses to admit he's wrong. 

 

I hate to say it, but... yeah.

 

I don't even mind the long-ass talk -- it's been fun to do and isn't anything personal -- but I'm just not seeing the train of logic he's using about cross-gen if something the PS360 could do constitutes "next-gen." It looks pretty on PS4/XBO! But this is totally not the point that was being made.

[crispy4000]

25 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Something like Crysis 3 running on a PC. You're currently arguing that a 900p 26-28fps on-rails Ryse is better than anything else you saw on anything at the time. I don't know what else to tell you, but that's not true. Reminds me of the, "If PS4 is more powerful, why is Ryse the best looking game on consoles?" I mean, I guess you can be "better looking" by going sub-1080p and not hitting 30fps all the time in a linear game, but that's one component, and it's why something like Demon's Souls, which its lightning quick load and impressive tech, is more notable with its mostly stable frame rate as a launch game. Even Miles Morales looks fucking amazing on PS5.

 

You're right that Crysis 3 looks good.  I'll give you that.  Guarantee you weren't counting resolution and frames when that Ryse demo trailer first dropped though.  And I think Killzone trailer was the most effective showcase of what next-gen scope could be at the time. 

 

Giving an impression of what next-gen can mean shouldn't be about pixel counts and frame rates IMO.  I think it's frustrating how much of a focus that's been.  There's a reason why the UE5 demo got people excited even though it was a reconstructed 1440p30.

 

14 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

I'm glad you were excited! But we're kind of back to, "I liked how this looked," which is quite different than all this cross-gen, bullshot, PC talk.

 

Yeah, like wtf? We're having this cross-gen discussion but you just shared a video of something that happened on a PS3, too.

 

How was that next-gen?!?!?!

 

What can I say, DICE deserves some props.  They had to cut the player count down, from what I remember, but its still impressive to me.

 

9 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

At this point, he just refuses to admit he's wrong. 

 

Maybe wait until I respond next time?

[SaysWho?]

Just now, crispy4000 said:

 

You're right that Crysis 3 looks good.  I'll give you that.  I guarantee you weren't counting resolution and frames when that Ryse demo trailer first dropped though.  And I think Killzone trailer was the most effective showcase of what next-gen scope could be at the time. 

 

Giving an impression of what next-gen can mean shouldn't be about pixel counts and frame rates.  I think it's frustrating how much of a focus that's been.  There's a reason why the UE5 demo got people excited even though it was a reconstructed 1440p30.

 

 

What can I say, DICE deserves some props.  They had to cut the player count down, from what I remember, but its still impressive.

 

In case I'm giving the wrong impression, I thought Killzone looked very nice and even thought the individual things on Knack falling apart and coming together were really cool, as well as the particles in Resogun. I'm just not seeing what it was doing better than this gen considering the criteria you're giving, you know? We're talking cross-gen and disliking the number of cross-gen games, but you gave an instance of something the PS360 were doing as well, granted not looking as good while doing it.

 

Even removing all the stuff about frame rate and all that, Miles Morales is a hugely impressive game despite being available on the PS4. Even in Fidelity mode, it plays very well and shows an absolutely bustling city with no problems I encountered. At 60fps with ray tracing, it's still lovely.

[BloodyHell]

4 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

You're right that Crysis 3 looks good.  I'll give you that.  Guarantee you weren't counting resolution and frames when that Ryse demo trailer first dropped though.  And I think Killzone trailer was the most effective showcase of what next-gen scope could be at the time. 

 

Giving an impression of what next-gen can mean shouldn't be about pixel counts and frame rates IMO.  I think it's frustrating how much of a focus that's been.  There's a reason why the UE5 demo got people excited even though it was a reconstructed 1440p30.

 

 

What can I say, DICE deserves some props.  They had to cut the player count down, from what I remember, but its still impressive to me.

 

 

Maybe wait until I respond next time?

I mean there's not much for you to respond with. The only thing ps4 had over ps3 is power, that's it. PS5 and Sex have power in spades, and more. So it's hard to make any sense of your rants about it. PS4 had almost no improvement beyond raw power.

 

Also, you're in the very small percentage who claims to not care about load times. That and performance modes alone make this a far bigger leap than any gen before, aside maybe 16 bit to PSX/N64.

[Keyser_Soze]

24 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

At this point, he just refuses to admit he's wrong. 

 

He won't say he's wrong but he sure likes to point out that others are wrong.

[crispy4000]

51 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

In case I'm giving the wrong impression, I thought Killzone looked very nice and even thought the individual things on Knack falling apart and coming together were really cool, as well as the particles in Resogun. I'm just not seeing what it was doing better than this gen considering the criteria you're giving, you know? We're talking cross-gen and disliking the number of cross-gen games, but you gave an instance of something the PS360 were doing as well, granted not looking as good while doing it.

 

Even removing all the stuff about frame rate and all that, Miles Morales is a hugely impressive game despite being available on the PS4. Even in Fidelity mode, it plays very well and shows an absolutely bustling city with no problems I encountered. At 60fps with ray tracing, it's still lovely.

 

Miles Morales is what I hope the standard to be for cross-gen titles, or remasters of last-gen ones.  It targets both generations perfectly, scales to both, yet is still on the forefront of next-gen visual features.  If more games did what it does, I might be more interested in upgrading sooner.  Not as excited as ground-up next-gen stuff, but it's still a positive.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, you have games like Cyperpunk that can't get a patch ready.  The current gen consoles can't really handle it.  But there's a question if the PS5/XSX can either if they dip too much into the RT well.  In a perfect world, that game would have a been ready in time.  Control with RT as well.  Honestly, that would have been enough for me to see those two games turn out well on consoles.  We might get to see that soon with Control.
 

39 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

He won't say he's wrong but he sure likes to point out that others are wrong.

 

I've already admitted I was wrong about BF4 and that I forgot about Crysis 3.  What more do you want?

[crispy4000]

31 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean there's not much for you to respond with. The only thing ps4 had over ps3 is power, that's it. PS5 and Sex have power in spades, and more. So it's hard to make any sense of your rants about it. PS4 had almost no improvement beyond raw power.

 

The only place I'm truly concerned with the PS5/XSX's 'power' is their RT capability.  We'll see how far they can be stretched.  But this has mostly been about how dev's are using the new consoles, not their spec sheet.

 

31 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Also, you're in the very small percentage who claims to not care about load times. That and performance modes alone make this a far bigger leap than any gen before, aside maybe 16 bit to PSX/N64.

 

I don't think people care about loading times to the degree the marketing push suggests.

 

It would be nice if 60fps performance modes stick around on these consoles.  I like that its a system level option on the PS5.  We'll see what happens after the cross-gen period or a mid-gen console release.

[BloodyHell]

4 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

The only place I'm truly concerned with PS5/XSX's 'power' is their RT capability.  We'll see how far they can be stretched.  But this has mostly been about how dev's are using the new consoles, not their spec sheet.

 

 

I don't think people care about loading times to the degree the marketing push suggests.

 

Yeah, it would be nice if 60fps performance modes stick around on these consoles.  I like that its a system level option on the PS5.  We'll see what happens after the cross-gen period or a mid-gen console release.

Man, the biggest complaint gamers have always had is load times.

 

And if you played Demon's Souls,MM, or even Sackboy, I don't know how you can say they aren't using it well. Especially when your only opinion if the graphical leap would have come from streams.

[crispy4000]

16 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Man, the biggest complaint gamers have always had is load times.

 

Poor framerate, resolution and vsync issues are probably at the top.  Loading times are somewhere closer to glitches, pop-in and large install sizes.  Unless we're talking Sonic 2006 or something where it's totally inexcusable.

 

16 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

And if you played Demon's Souls,MM, or even Sackboy, I don't know how you can say they aren't using it well. Especially when your only opinion if the graphical leap would have come from streams.

 

What's 'it'?  Don't think I've singled out those games as doing anything poorly.

[SaysWho?]

Frame rate is probably near the top (even 30 fps many can play on if it's stable and not inconsistent), but load times have been a constant battle since the Saturn/PS1 days. Sometimes you don't realize how much you want something until you have it. I was able to play just fine without suspend/resume and I'll be damned if that wasn't really cool. The instant loads is another. Combined, it's da bess.

[BloodyHell]

19 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Poor framerate, resolution and vsync issues are probably at the top.  Loading times are probably somewhere closer to glitches and pop-in.  Unless we're talking Sonic 2006 or something where it's totally inexcusable.

 

 

What's 'it'?

The console and it's power

[crispy4000]

7 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

The console and it's power

 

Then yes, those games use it well with what they're aiming for.

[crispy4000]

12 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Frame rate is probably near the top (even 30 fps many can play on if it's stable and not inconsistent), but load times have been a constant battle since the Saturn/PS1 days. Sometimes you don't realize how much you want something until you have it. I was able to play just fine without suspend/resume and I'll be damned if that wasn't really cool. The instant loads is another. Combined, it's da bess.

 

I think the PS1/Saturn days were some of the worst with it.  I still remember loading screens between rooms.  Games got a lot better at hiding it, or just giving you one long loading screen to get in and start playing.  (which got infinitely more tolerable with suspend/resume)