Movies In the last few days I have watched all the Star Wars movies (minus Rogue One). I haven't seen most of them in over 10+ years.

[SaysWho?]

Just now, Bacon said:

Yeah, I am not talking about the Sins shit. There are legit criticisms videos on the, but at this point it is clear you only wish to hear praise and nothing else towards TLJ.  I mean, you literally responded with "lol, CinemaSins" as a way to simply dismiss what I said. Purposefully using the worst example. And even then, if it was a 20 year old film student, what makes their criticism worse than yours? And like, do you really know nothing about youtube? A 15 minute video? Try videos that are an hour to hours long. Or are those now too long and so you can't be bothered? 

 

Most of the criticism is no better than Cinema Sins. You're the one who mentioned millions of views, so Sins was the first thing I thought of. Youtube criticism from 20-somethings is worse because they don't offer anything better than what I can get from Skillz or sblfilms or Kal. They consistently offer significantly worse "analysis." And many videos will pick out some camera shot here or some line there and extrapolate something that's not even there in the scene, which is where the 15-minute videos come in. Lengthening the "critiques" to two hours, like a really bad RedLetterMedia video (where everyone lost their shit because the guy knew what a shot/reverse shot was and thought he was a film scholar), doesn't make the video more worth watching.

 

So yeah, my time is better spent watching a great film like TLJ than some random 20-something guy who doesn't know what he's talking about for an hour. There aren't really many people on Youtube worth watching, and I've watched enough of these mystical videos to know.  

 

What do you want to hear? For example, you asked about the light speed. I told you exactly why the scene is what it is and how it relates to the themes explored in the movie. Maybe you didn't like that answer, but that's your answer. People like to shit on movies in videos, but once their critique is critiqued, they lose their mind.

[Bacon]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

People like to shit on movies in videos, but once their critique is critiqued, they lose their mind.

Um, no, the issue is you are telling me my opinions are wrong and calling them a critique. The only one critiquing anything is you and you are doing it to my opinions. Once again, what makes what you right and the people who disagree with you wrong. Ignore me, but what makes your critique right and RLM's wrong. Or hell, even CinemaSins wrong. You offer no reason why I should take what you say over others. Yeah, I read the light speed shit you posted. You explaining it doesn't make it any less stupid when your insight and the meaning is what you took from it. And even if what you said was correct, that doesn't make it good when all of those events played out poorly due to, as others would say, bad writing. As I have said, all of that stuff was boring to watch, and was only visually stimulating. The explored themes don't mean shit if it isn't done well. And for, as the people of D1P would say, a kids movie, you really are putting this deeper meaning into scene where there isn't any. In any case, it isn't my answer. It is your answer to a question I didn't have. 

[SaysWho?]

Just now, Bacon said:

Um, no, the issue is you are telling me my opinions are wrong and calling them a critique. The only one critiquing anything is you and you are doing it to my opinions. Once again, what makes what you right and the people who disagree with you wrong. Ignore me, but what makes your critique right and RLM's wrong. Or hell, even CinemaSins wrong. You offer no reason why I should take what you say over others. Yeah, I read the light speed shit you posted. You explaining it doesn't make it any less stupid when your insight and the meaning is what you took from it. And even if what you said was correct, that doesn't make it good when all of those events played out poorly due to, as others would say, bad writing. As I have said, all of that stuff was boring to watch, and was only visually stimulating. The explored themes don't mean shit if it isn't done well. And for, as the people of D1P would say, a kids movie, you really are putting this deeper meaning into scene where there isn't any. In any case, it isn't my answer. It is your answer to a question I didn't have. 

 

I don't know what's up in your life, but you are one angry motherfucker and none of this makes any sense.  

 

So I'll bow out and wish you well.  

[Bacon]

15 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I don't know what's up in your life, but you are one angry motherfucker and none of this makes any sense.  

 

So I'll bow out and wish you well.  

 

I wasn't angry until you started posting. 

 

Edit: And I still want to know why other people's criticisms are wrong (edit: or maybe irrelevant) while yours aren't. 

[SaysWho?]

8 minutes ago, Bacon said:

 

I wasn't angry until you started posting. 

 

Edit: And I still want to know why other people's criticisms are wrong while yours aren't. 

 

Okay:

 

Half this board, including me, are smarter and better than anybody you follow on Youtube and actually can speak about set-ups and payoffs and themes of a film. None of RLM's observations are really that good or insightful. Some of it is a basic misunderstanding of how a film or show or even news story are made (ex: Lucas' reactions watching a rough cut of The Phantom Menace). RLM didn't even know much about Rian Johnson, which is embarrassing considering how many smaller directors end up making big movies and embarrassing for anyone who sets up a primarily film-based website, and CinemaSins is not respected by any filmmaker that I know of (but has been shit on by some of them), all of whom make better films than, "Lemme harp on this small thing or get something fundamentally wrong about the film we're supposed to shit on," CinemaSins. 

 

Channels like them degrade criticism and discourse and feed into this entire culture of, "I can't talk about a movie without using hyperbole." And judging by your response to my light speed explanation which made you fly off the handle, your response is exactly the kind of thing CinemaSins has helped do to poison how we talk about shows or movies. 

[skillzdadirecta]

[TheLeon]

 Whenever threads like this pop up, about Star Wars or really anything, it makes me realize that I just don't actually care that much about anything. 

[SaysWho?]

Just now, TheLeon said:

 Whenever threads like this pop up, about Star Wars or really anything, it makes me realize that I just don't actually care that much about anything. 

 

I'm giving this a laugh react at first glance, but I hope this doesn't mean no motivation in life.

[skillzdadirecta]

For what it's worth, @Bacon is perfectly entitled to his opinion on TLJ. He's not wrong if he doesn't like the film... everyone has different tastes. I think what @SaysWho? is trying to say is that a lot of folks try to justify their criticism with things that validate their opinions that just aren't true. For example, there is nothing poorly written about TLJ. You may not like the choices the director made, but that does mean he did anything wrong. It just means YOU didn't like what he did and that's cool. @SaysWho? is right about practically everything he said regarding modern internet movie criticism (To be honest this also applies to movie criticism in general for the last 40 years but that's another story) which is why I pay that shit ZERO mind. So much of the "criticism" of TLJ boils down to "I didn't get the movie I created in my head" and that's ok, but it's not valid criticism and folks shouldn't get pissed when folks point that out 

 

[Bacon]

24 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

So, would I be correct in taking that as, "I am smarter than you so what I say is correct. Deal with it." Like, you don't actually have a reason except for "I'm smarter". I mean, I agree that CinemaSins is shit and I have not watched their video on TLJ, and my opinion that scene comes the very first time I saw the movie. Like, in the car, Christmas day. I want to point out they had no influence on what I said about that scene. 

 

I didn't fly off the handle. I have not insulted you yet. At least not intentionally. 

[TheLeon]

2 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I'm giving this a laugh react at first glance, but I hope this doesn't mean no motivation in life.

Apathy in general actually has been a problem for me for most of my adult life, but I'm in therapy and slowly working through it. My new job has helped a lot, giving me some momentum towards gradually improving my overall situation. 

 

But here, I'm mostly talking about these uber-nerd debates. 

[SaysWho?]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

For what it's worth, @Bacon is perfectly entitled to his opinion on TLJ. He's not wrong if he doesn't like the film... everyone has different tastes. I think what @SaysWho? is trying to say is that a lot of folks try to justify their criticism with things that validate their opinions that just aren't true. For example, there is nothing poorly written about TLJ. You may not like the choices the director made, but that does mean he did anything wrong. It just means YOU didn't like what he did and that's cool. @SaysWho? is right about practically everything he said regarding modern internet movie criticism (To be honest this also applies to movie criticism in general for the last 40 years but that's another story) which is why I pay that shit ZERO mind. So much of the "criticism" of TLJ boils down to "I didn't get the movie I created in my head" and that's ok, but it's not valid criticism and folks shouldn't get pissed when folks point that out 

 

 

Yes, this exactly. Nothing personal to him or what he thinks or how he enjoys the movie.

 

2 minutes ago, Bacon said:

So, would I be correct in taking that as, "I am smarter than you so what I say is correct. Deal with it." Like, you don't actually have a reason except for "I'm smarter". I mean, I agree that CinemaSins is shit and I have not watched their video on TLJ, and my opinion that scene comes the very first time I saw the movie. Like, in the car, Christmas day. I want to point out they had no influence on what I said about that scene. 

 

I didn't fly off the handle. I have not insulted you yet. At least not intentionally. 

 

I'm smarter than they are, yes, but I literally gave you reasons in that post. I've nothing against you, dude.  

 

  

1 minute ago, TheLeon said:

Apathy in general actually has been a problem for me for most of my adult life, but I'm in therapy and slowly working through it. My new job has helped a lot, giving me some momentum towards gradually improving my overall situation. 

 

But here, I'm mostly talking about these uber-nerd debates. 

 

I'm glad that you went to therapy; some people think it's not for them or it can't help, but it's a courageous and appropriate thing to do.  

[Greatoneshere]

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

 

All opinions are not equally valid. 

[Bacon]

2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

 

All opinions are not equally valid. 

Even if mine weren't, I wouldn't suddenly like the movie. Fuckin hate it. 

[Greatoneshere]

7 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Even if mine weren't, I wouldn't suddenly like the movie. Fuckin hate it. 

 

The comment is directed at no one in particular (it's aimed at everyone), and obviously your opinion on TLJ is intractable. I'd argue that makes you biased and therefore incapable and unqualified to assess the movie in any objective way.

 

But I'm not here to change anyone's opinion, because it's clear that when it comes to Star Wars, no one's opinion can be changed. It's a lot like politics, or when people pick "their" team in sports. I think that's a shame, but that's the nature of people vs. discourse and debate.

[Bacon]

4 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'd argue that makes you biased and therefore incapable and unqualified to assess the movie in any objective way.

Not wrong there. No way can I be objective when I feel like this

[skillzdadirecta]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument than others." - Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

 

All opinions are not equally valid. 

While I agree with this folks are still perfectly entitled to their "opinions" ESPECIALLY when it comes to art & entertainment which is subjective for the most part. They're just not entitled to their own FACTS which is not subjective. Regarding this conversation, a subjective opinion would be "Luke's characterization in the Last Jedi is a betrayal of the character and I don't like it because I never got to see him go full Super Saiyan Jedi and kick massive ass." That's a subjective an opinion and while I may not agree with it, folks are entitled to it. A FACT is "The Last Jedi is a well written, well directed film on a technical level, that makes choices that may not be popular with some fans that were expecting something else. It subverts expectations but is not an objectively BAD movie." That's a FACT. Folks on the internet often confuse the two... in my opinion  

[Keyser_Soze]

2 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

An incorrect assessment and a fundamental misunderstanding of what made all episodes with Anakin bad.  

 

Jake Lloyd was a bad actor, what else do I need to understand?

[Moa]

There are plenty of movies that are above clickbait youtube criticism, but I suspect TLJ is not among them.

[skillzdadirecta]

12 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Jake Lloyd was a bad actor, what else do I need to understand?

 

Yeah but the actress who played Rose wasn't.

[Greatoneshere]

16 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

While I agree with this folks are still perfectly entitled to their "opinions" ESPECIALLY when it comes to art & entertainment which is subjective for the most part. They're just not entitled to their own FACTS which is not subjective. Regarding this conversation, a subjective opinion would be "Luke's characterization in the Last Jedi is a betrayal of the character and I don't like it because I never got to see him go full Super Saiyan Jedi and kick massive ass." That's a subjective an opinion and while I may not agree with it, folks are entitled to it. A FACT is "The Last Jedi is a well written, well directed film on a technical level, that makes choices that may not be popular with some fans that were expecting something else. It subverts expectations but is not an objectively BAD movie." That's a FACT. Folks on the internet often confuse the two... in my opinion  

 

I disagree - the entire point of Adams' quote is that a "subjective" opinion can be uninformed or less informed and thus, is not as valid as another "subjective" opinion from someone else who understands thematic structure, or the point of a scene, or narrative flow, better than Joe Sixpack. Has nothing to do with facts, though of course someone armed with more facts will have a more valid opinion, so they are connected. I agree with your post in full, I'm just taking it further.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean they are equally valid. 

[Bacon]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

It subverts expectations

I hate this because I don't get why it is a good thing in general. From my personal experience, not including TLJ, it often isn't a good thing. Not sure if you are saying it is a good thing, but I often hear "and that's a good thing" when people say it subverts expectations. I'd much rather it be within my expectations and only get a fine product. I'd rather mildly enjoy something rather than something potentially be worse. Or in the case with SW, almost any subversion will always be met with negativity by me. 

 

Also, I don't really think the movie is that well written outside of the Rey and Kylo stuff. That is mainly due to how stupid both the First Order and the Resistance seem to be. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I disagree - the entire point of Adams' quote is that a "subjective" opinion can be uninformed or less informed and thus, is not as valid as another "subjective" opinion from someone else who understands thematic structure, or the point of a scene, or narrative flow, better than Joe Sixpack. Has nothing to do with facts, though of course someone armed with more facts will have a more valid opinion, so they are connected. I agree with your post, I'm just taking it further.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean they are equally valid. 

 

Yeah that's what I said. I didn't make a determination about "validity". 

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Yeah that's what I said. I didn't make a determination about "validity". 

 

Well I think the crux of the discussion isn't entitlement (as that's self evident) but validity. Either way, your post is on point.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

I hate this because I don't get why it is a good thing in general. From my personal experience, not including TLJ, it often isn't a good thing. Not sure if you are saying it is a good thing, but I often hear "and that's a good thing" when people say it subverts expectations. I'd much rather it be within my expectations and only get a fine product. I'd rather mildly enjoy something rather than something potentially be worse. Or in the case with SW, almost any subversion will always be met with negativity by me. 

 

Also, I don't really think the movie is that well written outside of the Rey and Kylo stuff. That is mainly due to how stupid both the First Order and the Resistance seem to be. 

 

I find it more thrilling to watch a movie that plays out differently than I imagined than one that plays by the numbers and doesn't surprise me at ALL. Those films can still be entertaining but because the ride getting there can be just as thrilling. But films that keep me on the edge of my seat because they are constantly... "subverting my expectations" are far more engaging to me than predictable, by the numbers films   They don't always work, but when they do they are more enjoyable for me. Knives out was a pretty predictable film that I recently saw that while it was engaging as I watched the mystery play out, the resolution was ultimately a let down for me and landed the impact of a Scooby Doo episode. 

[skillzdadirecta]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well I think the crux of the discussion isn't entitlement (as that's self evident) but validity. Either way, your post is on point.

Is it? Because I don't think it's unreasonable to draw from some folks posts that they are saying "You shouldn't have that opinion because I know more than you". Or "You're WRONG for feeling the way you do because I know more than you." I don't think you can assume from some of these posts that everyone agrees that folks are entitled to their own opinions especially when they are opinions that folks don't agree with. And I DO believe that no amount of education can determine a "right" opinion when it comes to something subjective like art. And I WENT to an art school.

[Bacon]

Like, I don't watch a lot of movies. I have only been to the theater for on movie this year, Endgame. When I go to a movie it is because I know what it is and what I want from it. 

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Is it? Because I don't think it's unreasonable to draw from some folks posts that they are saying "You shouldn't have that opinion because I know more than you". Or "You're WRONG for feeling the way you do because I know more than you." I don't think you can assume from some of these posts that everyone agrees that folks are entitled to their own opinions especially when they are opinions that folks don't agree with.

 

It's literally the most self evident thing a person can discuss in debate. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Yes yes, they are, great, we all know (or should know) that. If people need that explained to them, I can't imagine the level of insecurity they must have about their own opinions.  

 

I think when people say those things you are using as examples, they are talking about validity, not entitlement, would be my assumption. Anyone can obviously think what they want, but they could indeed be stupid or wrong for doing so.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

Like, I don't watch a lot of movies. I have only been to the theater for on movie this year, Endgame. When I go to a movie it is because I know what it is and what I want from it. 

Cool. You're a different kind of movie goer than a lot of us here. That's cool, but you should probably acknowledge that and accept the fact that some of us consume film differently than you do. Neither is right or wrong, just different. You're a casual moviegoer and I don't men that in a derogative way. I see a TON of movies... more than I talk about on this board because I know what the level of discourse is here. And that's cool.

[TwinIon]

I've just started my rewatch of the series.

 

Episode 1 is ok. It's a massive miscalculation, bogged down by trade routes and Tatooine and little Ani. Still, it's a worthwhile entry if only for Qui-gon and duel of the fates.

 

Episode 2 is a disaster. Individual sequences can be individually compelling, like Jango vs Obi wan, but basically everything with Anakin is pretty much unwatchable.

 

 

Something that stood out to me more, watching in 4K, is how bad some of the effects are, but also how incredibly ambitious they were for the time. The sheer scale of the CG is incredible, and very much explains why it's so uneven. Some of it got the really short end of the stick. CG backdrops look flat and straight out of a video game cutscene. Elements given more care (like Jar Jar) are impressive for the time, even if they don't hold up very well.

 

[Bacon]

Like, one reason I got mad earlier is a didn't even want to talk about all that shit. I really just wanted to make my one big blog post. But then I went from | to /

[skillzdadirecta]

2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

. Anyone can obviously think what they want, but they could indeed be stupid or wrong for doing so.

 

We'll agree to disagree but I don't think liking or not liking a film makes a person stupid or wrong depending on what their reasons are. Not liking a film because you just didn't like it even though you understood the story and what the filmmakers were doing is one thing. Not liking a film because you missed a major plot point or didn't understand the story is another. It doesn't make you stupid, it just means you missed something. People consume things differently. I think the problem comes from people's tendency to double down even when something is pointed out to them that they missed. I remember a couple of years ago after seeing Gravity I told a friend of mine how underwhelmed I was by the movie. He pointed out something in the theme that I COMPLETELY missed and it changed the way I saw the film. Now it's one of my favorites. I wasn't stupid or wrong, I just missed something and he pointed it out and it enhanced my enjoyment of the film. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

Like, one reason I got mad earlier is a didn't even want to talk about all that shit. I really just wanted to make my one big blog post. But then I went from | to /

Well when you put an opinion out people WILL challenge you on it. You can either choose to respond or don't. You put anything out into the public space and its fair game 

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

We'll agree to disagree but I don't think liking or not liking a film makes a person stupid or wrong depending on what their reasons are. Not liking a film because you just didn't like it even though you understood the story and what the filmmakers were doing is one thing. Not liking a film because you missed a major plot point or didn't understand the story is another. It doesn't make you stupid, it just means you missed something. People consume things differently. I think the problem comes from people's tendency to double down even when something is pointed out to them that they missed. I remember a couple of years ago after seeing Gravity I told a friend of mine how underwhelmed I was by the movie. He pointed out something in the theme that I COMPLETELY missed and it changed the way I saw the film. Now it's one of my favorites. I wasn't stupid or wrong, I just missed something and he pointed it out and it enhanced my enjoyment of the film. 

 

I'm not talking about liking or not liking a film (again, a person can like something or not like something, that's fine), I'm talking about the underlying reasons could be uninformed or less informed, thus making the reasons for liking/disliking something wrong or less correct (if stupid is too harsh a term, we can stick with wrong and less correct). Either way, as you pointed out, the validity of the opinion is something that is demonstrable. 

[Bacon]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Well when you put an opinion out people WILL challenge you on it. You can either choose to respond or don't. You put anything out into the public space and its fair game 

I mean, I expected the usual EP8 shit, but then my expectations were subverted