Movies Russian Trolls may have been behind some of the hate for The Last Jedi

[SuperSpreader]

Just now, SaysWho? said:

 

No-no, no, no-no, no-no-no-no
No, no-no, no, no, no-no, no-no, no-no
No-no-no-no, no-no, no, no-no, no

Nobody can do the shing-a-ling
Like I do
Nobody can do the skate
Like I do
Nobody can do boogaloo
Like I do
Nobody can do Philly
Like I do

Well, don't you know I go to skate, I do
Ain't nobody doin' it but me (Nobody but me)
When I go to Philly, I do
Ain't nobody doin' it but me, babe (Nobody but me)
Well, let me tell you nobody
But nobody but me

Tell you, tell you, nobody (nobody), nobody (nobody)
Nobody (nobody), nobody (nobody)
Nobody (nobody), nobody (nobody)
Nobody (nobody), nobody (nobody)

No-no, no, no-no, no-no-no-no
No, no-no, no, no, no-no, no-no, no-no
No-no-no-no, no-no, no, no-no, no

Nobody can do the shing-a-ling
Like I do
Nobody can do the skate
Like I do
Nobody can do the boogaloo
Like I do
Nobody can do Philly
Like I do
Oh, yeah
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody
Nobody, nobody

 

You're right great movie wow amazing mind blowing so edgy

[SaysWho?]

2 minutes ago, 2user1cup said:

 

You're right great movie wow amazing mind blowing so edgy

 

 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Maybe I’m mistaken but I think his comment was in reference to Star Wars some how not being a “real movie”.

 

To elaborate, I didn't mean to imply that Star Wars films aren't "real" movies (I enjoy The Force Awakens despite its flaws and I really enjoy Rogue One despite its flaws) but nothing since Return of the Jedi (mostly the Luke-Vader-Palpatine parts) has had the substance of a real movie trying to say something new and heady that's also worthwhile all at the same time. 

 

The Force Awakens and Rogue One are the equivalent of good/really good Marvel movies. The Last Jedi enters much closer (I emphasize closer, not equal to) to "real movie" genre territory (because Star Wars is ultimately genre fare) like Logan or The Dark Knight. That's the difference I mean by sneaking a "real" movie into a Star Wars film. It's been a long time and I love that the movie did it - it's why I fell in love with the original trilogy in the first place as a kid growing up in the 1990's. 

[Spork3245]

7 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

To elaborate, I didn't mean to imply that Star Wars films aren't "real" movies (I enjoy The Force Awakens despite its flaws and I really enjoy Rogue One despite its flaws) but nothing since Return of the Jedi has had the substance of a real movie trying to say something new and heady that's also worthwhile all at the same time. 

 

The Force Awakens and Rogue One are the equivalent of really good Marvel movies. The Last Jedi enters much closer (I emphasize closer, not equal to) to "real movie" genre territory (because Star Wars is ultimately genre fare) like Logan or The Dark Knight. That's the difference. 

 

I’m not sure I see how TLJ is closer to a “real movie” than Rogue One. TFA was basically a nostalgic love letter to Star Wars fans, though. TLJ was more Marvel than either of the others, IMO. However, just like I can have my opinion, you can certainly have yours. (I state this about opinions as that is eternally lost in every single TLJ thread that I’ve seen here)  

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, Spork3245 said:

 

I’m not sure I see how TLJ is closer to a “real movie” than Rogue One. TFA was basically a nostalgic love letter to Star Wars fans, though. TLJ was more Marvel than either of the others, IMO. However, just like I can have my opinion, you can certainly have yours.  

 

In terms of humor it was more Marvel-y (The Force Awakens had it too). What I mean about TLJ being more "real" is that unlike TFA or RO, TLJ takes time to breathe. There are scenes simply of drama and character interplay. The movie pauses constantly just to talk and inject properly built up drama to the scenes, where characters just talk like Rose and Finn in Canto Bight and Rey and Luke on the island.

 

RO and especially TFA just speed to the next scene. Those films rarely breathe. The original Star Wars films are slowwwww compared to todays standards. They were partly inspired by previous 1970's David Lean epics like Lawrence of Arabia (hence, in part, Tatootine and the long shots of the sand and desert). I remember coming out of TFA the first time being like: "that movie moves so fast that I can't even process everything I saw" which is typical J.J. Abrams. He does tense thrill rides that don't work a lot structurally on repeat viewings, as entertaining and "in-the-moment" engaging he makes his films.

 

Rian Johnson took a slower approach. Not a slow approach, the film is still modern after all, but it does take its time to actually structure its plot not around action scenes or exposition all the time, but around characters. I like that it bothers to take time and not train rush me to more exposition scene/action scene combinations. Is it a perfect film? No, but I hope that helps explain what I mean by sneaking a real movie into a Star Wars movie in there. 

 

I agree with you it's not a very Star Wars-y movie but on its face that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I agree it's not, but to me it's still a great movie in its own right.    

[CastlevaniaNut18]

It's nice to finally see the masses say that Star Wars sucks.

[Spork3245]

12 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

In terms of humor it was more Marvel-y (The Force Awakens had it too). What I mean about TLJ being more "real" is that unlike TFA or RO, TLJ takes time to breathe. There are scenes simply of drama and character interplay. The movie pauses constantly just to talk and inject properly built up drama to the scenes, where characters just talk like Rose and Finn in Canto Bight and Rey and Luke on the island.

 

RO and especially TFA just speed to the next scene. Those films rarely breathe. The original Star Wars films are slowwwww compared to todays standards. They were partly inspired by previous 1970's David Lean epics like Lawrence of Arabia (hence, in part, Tatootine and the long shots of the sand and desert). I remember coming out of TFA the first time being like: "that movie moves so fast that I can't even process everything I saw" which is typical J.J. Abrams. He does tense thrill rides that don't work a lot structurally on repeat viewings, as entertaining and "in-the-moment" engaging he makes his films.

 

Rian Johnson took a slower approach. Not a slow approach, the film is still modern after all, but it does take its time to actually structure its plot not around action scenes or exposition all the time, but around characters. I like that it bothers to take time and not train rush me to more exposition scene/action scene combinations. Is it a perfect film? No, but I hope that helps explain what I mean by sneaking a real movie into a Star Wars movie in there. 

 

I agree with you it's not a very Star Wars-y movie but on its face that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I agree it's not, but to me it's still a great movie in its own right.    

 

To me, slow does not make one movie more a movie than another. There was plenty of character development and dialogue in both in TFA and RO, iirc. My dislike of TLJ has nothing to do with the slower scenes, btw.  

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

To me, slow does not make one movie more a movie than another. There was plenty of character development and dialogue in both in TFA and RO, iirc. My dislike of TLJ has nothing to do with the slower scenes, btw.  

 

Haha yeah I wasn't saying slower scenes were your problem with the film, but it isn't very "Star Wars'y" since Return of the Jedi. And there was not a lot of character development (to me) in TFA or RO. A lot of what passed for "character development" was just scenes moving the plot forward. it felt perfunctory, not explorative. 

 

Point is, the filmmaking was very different than "usual" and I appreciated it for that, regardless of how someone wants to characterize what that "difference" was. That doesn't automatically make it a good movie (I think its good because its execution is good) but I think that's why it doesn't feel Star Wars-y, to an extent. 

 

If the term "real" movie bothers you, you can use any word you'd like to describe why its different from previous films. Whatever word that is, I think it's a good thing for Star Wars is all heh. 

[BuckFly]

18 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

It's a real movie in Star Wars clothing. I don't think that is per se a bad thing, but I can see why some wouldn't like that for legitimate reasons (like yourself).

 

And then there are some who just don't like the fact that Johnson snuck a real movie into a Star Wars movie. And that says so much about that segment of the population. 

 

3 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'm not sure what's pretentious about it. That's been a big criticism amongst a certain segment of Star Wars fans; that TLJ wasn't "Star Wars-y" enough. I'm not sure what is pretentious about saying that.

 

All I'm saying is that the reason it doesn't feel "Star Wars-y" enough is because it tries to actually be a real movie rather than primarily please fans. It's a fair assessment, I think, pretentious or not. 

 

 

I absolutely see your point, but I do respectfully disagree.

 

The same argument might be ( and has been) made about Rogue One.  In that movie everybody...EVERYBODY who was a hero died and there was no jedi in it (unless you count Vadar, but he's a Sith ).

 

That's kind of un-Star Warsy and I honestly think it is the best SW movie since Empire.

 

Heck, Halo O.D.S.T. wasn't even a real Halo game (almost even by Bungie's own admission as it being just "filler" for them) and I love the living s*** out of that game.

 

You can be a Star Wars movie that is un-Star Warsy and be "real" and be good.  I personally just didn't think the movie was good, incredulity of even sci-fi elements that take you out of the moment(s) aside.  I felt it to be weak and easy story telling.

 

I watched it for the second time ever last night, just to be fair in my memory, 10 months after seeing it in the theater.  It's never been that long in between viewings for me (or at least first and second viewings) when it comes to Star Wars.  I don't carry grudges when it comes to entertainment. If something is good and it just plain gets to me, then regardless of whatever opinions I have about it I will watch it again.  I disagreed with a lot with what was said in The Newsroom, but it was brilliant and I kept coming back.  

 

I am old enough to get over simple things, and young enough to be not set in my ways when I view the movie now, almost a year later, with different eyes than what I thought I maybe was expecting back in 2017.

 

...and it does nothing for me.  It doesn't make me curious.  I am not mesmerized by the special effects (not in this day and age).   Other than the bombs dropping (actually thought that was one of the more moving moments in any Star Wars movie) and Luke's battle with Kylo (which turns out to be fake) there were precious few highlights or memories for me.  I just didn't like it.

 

 

I am not a hater...I am truly and actually envious of some of you.  

 

I wish I liked it the way you do.

[Greatoneshere]

8 minutes ago, BuckFly said:

 

 

 

I absolutely see your point, but I do respectfully disagree.

 

The same argument might be ( and has been) made about Rogue One.  In that movie everybody...EVERYBODY who was a hero died and there was no jedi in it (unless you count Vadar, but he's a Sith ).

 

That's kind of un-Star Warsy and I honestly think it is the best SW movie since Empire.

 

Heck, Halo O.D.S.T. wasn't even a real Halo game (almost even by Bungie's own admission as it being just "filler" for them) and love the living s*** out of that game.

 

You can be a Star Wars movie that is un-Star Warsy and be "real" and be good.  I personally just didn't think the movie was good, incredulity of even sci-fi elements that take you out of the moment(s) aside.  I felt it to be weak and easy story telling.

 

I watched it for the second time ever last night, just to be fair in my memory, 10 months after seeing it in the theater.  It's never been that long in between viewings for me (or at least first and second viewings) when it comes to Star Wars.  I don't carry grudges when it comes to entertainment. If something is good and it just plain gets to me, then regardless of whatever opinions I have about it I will watch it again.  I disagreed with a lot with what was said in The Newsroom, but it was brilliant and I kept coming back.  

 

I am old enough to get over simple things, and young enough to be not set in my ways to view the movie now, almost a year later, with different eyes than what I thought I maybe was expecting back in 2017.

 

...and it does nothing for me.  It doesn't make me curious.  I am not mesmerized by the special effects (not in this day and age).   Other than the bombs dropping (actually thought that was one of the more moving moments in any Star Wars movie) and Luke's battle with Kylo (which turns out to be fake) were highlights.  Otherwise I didn't care and I just didn't like it.

 

I am not a hater...I am truly and actually envious of some of you.  

 

I wish I liked it the way you do.

 

That's totally fine - everyone should enjoy the movie or not on an honest level.

 

I think what is "okay" for fans with clearly marked spin-offs and for mainline entries for franchises makes a big difference. I love RO and I really like Halo 3: ODST but our expectations are different for those and they can be different and feel "unStar Wars-y" or "unHalo-y" and no one minds so long as its done well. That's my entire point - doing something so different with TLJ for a mainline entry for something as fan-entrenched as Star Wars is a very bold move, and not only that, I think Johnson did it well (not perfectly, but well).

 

Now, I said that a certain segment of the Star Wars fandom dislikes or hates TLJ based on that it is different alone. The movie, for them, has no chance of being good on a foundational level. 

 

I do not believe you or Spork fall into that segment, but that segment exists and more people are part of that segment than they themselves probably think because it engenders such a visceral reaction. I didn't enjoy TLJ much on a first viewing - I liked it but didn't think too highly of it. On repeat viewings I've really opened my mind up to its filmmaking style and put it more into context of Johnson's other films (which I love) like Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and Looper, and the film clicked for me completely and I understand the overwhelming love it gets based on pretty much any demonstrable metric.

[Spork3245]

8 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Haha yeah I wasn't saying slower scenes were your problem with the film, but it isn't very "Star Wars'y" since Return of the Jedi. And there was not a lot of character development (to me) in TFA or RO. A lot of what passed for "character development" was just scenes moving the plot forward. it felt perfunctory, not explorative. 

 

Point is, the filmmaking was very different than "usual" and I appreciated it for that, regardless of how someone wants to characterize what that "difference" was. That doesn't automatically make it a good movie (I think its good because its execution is good) but I think that's why it doesn't feel Star Wars-y, to an extent. 

 

If the term "real" movie bothers you, you can use any word you'd like to describe why its different from previous films. Whatever word that is, I think it's a good thing for Star Wars is all heh. 

 

The Empire Strikes Back says “hello”.  

When I use the term “Star Warsy” I’m referencing what makes SW SW, and that does not need to be removed or an “olo F U” to fans put in its place to make a good movie. I do understand your point, though, however...

I think The Winter Soldier is probably the best example I can give as to what I mean here, as I’ll admit a “feel” is not the easiest to explain clearly. TWS was different from every other Disney-Marvel film in the franchise, yet was still a Marvel Superhero movie and maintained that throughout despite the huge difference in tone, dialogue, and pacing throughout the film. I do not see a Marvel movie to see something with the superhero aspect vastly different and removed than in other films, though, I’d welcome it to be enhanced/improved/changed. That’s where TLJ lost me, it wanted to not be a SW movie while still being SW, IMO. It reminds me of Sony forcing Raimi to make Spider-Man 3 with the symbiots; Raimi wasn’t a fan of the symbiots/Venom and it showed in the movie. Am I saying TLJ’s director isn’t a SW fan? No, maybe, I don’t know.

[Greatoneshere]

5 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

The Empire Strikes Back says “hello”.  

When I use the term “Star Warsy” I’m referencing what makes SW SW, and that does not need to be removed or an “olo F U” to fans put in its place to make a good movie. I do understand your point, though, however...

I think The Winter Soldier is probably the best example I can give as to what I mean here, as I’ll admit a “feel” is not the easiest to explain clearly. TWS was different from every other Disney-Marvel film in the franchise, yet was still a Marvel Superhero movie and maintained that throughout despite the huge difference in tone, dialogue, and pacing throughout the film. I do not see a Marvel movie to see something with the superhero aspect vastly different and removed than in other films, though, I’d welcome it to be enhanced/improved/changed. That’s where TLJ lost me, it wanted to not be a SW movie while still being SW, IMO. It reminds me of Sony forcing Raimi to make Spider-Man 3 with the symbiots; Raimi wasn’t a fan of the symbiots/Venom and it showed in the movie. Am I saying TLJ’s director isn’t a SW fan? No, maybe, I don’t know.

 

I think your post is pretty on point and TWS is a great example (a film I also love for being a very different kind of MCU film). I think you get what I'm saying and you are simply saying TLJ didn't nail it in execution. That's a fair disagreement.

 

The Spider-Man 3 example doesn't work because Johnson wasn't forced to add anything - he made the movie he wanted to make. I think you are on point with what I am going for in terms of how TLJ has a different feel - I think TLJ is a Star Wars film but doesn't feel like one completely, I agree. But I felt that worked - I mean, I'm a fan. But it certainly was a divisive approach, but Star Wars films should be divisive, I think. Again, execution is something that anyone can disagree on and debate without it being a problem. I was just originally trying to explain why a certain segment outright hates TLJ simply for not feeling like Star Wars, regardless of execution. 

 

As an aside, Rian Johnson is a diehard Star Wars fan, has been his whole life, and considered solely writing/directing TLJ his dream job. Watching the thorough behind the scenes documentary on the bluray bears this out constantly.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think your post is pretty on point and TWS is a great example (a film I also love for being a very different kind of MCU film). I think you get what I'm saying and you are simply saying TLJ didn't nail it in execution. That's a fair disagreement.

 

The Spider-Man 3 example doesn't work because Johnson wasn't forced to add anything - he made the movie he wanted to make. I think you are on point with what I am going for in terms of how TLJ has a different feel - I think TLJ is a Star Wars film but doesn't feel like one completely, I agree. But I felt that worked - I mean, I'm a fan. But it certainly was a divisive approach, but Star Wars films should be divisive, I think. Again, execution is something that anyone can disagree on and debate without it being a problem. I was just originally trying to explain why a certain segment outright hates TLJ simply for not feeling like Star Wars, regardless of execution. 

 

As an aside, Rian Johnson is a diehard Star Wars fan, has been his whole life, and considered solely writing/directing TLJ his dream job. Watching the thorough behind the scenes documentary on the bluray bears this out constantly.

 

I know nothing of the director and was using the Raimi example for the “feel” of my “let’s not be too Star Warsy” comment. Hence the “no, maybe, I don’t know”.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

OH GOD ENOUGH ABOUT THIS MOVIE ALREADY!

[BuckFly]

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

OH GOD ENOUGH ABOUT THIS MOVIE ALREADY!

 

 

Wade is just upset that all this convo isn't going on in a thread he started.

 

[SuperSpreader]

51 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

It's nice to finally see the masses say that Star Wars sucks.

TLJ opened my eyes to realize all SW kinda sucks.

 

And by kinda I mean I no longer care about SW.