Sony Update (05/06): new PS5 Pro details - maximum 2.35 Ghz GPU clock (36TF maximum performance), larger caches, RDNA2 Mesh Shaders, VRS added (Digital Foundry)

[best3444]

So GTA 6 will indeed run at 60 fps like some of you said it wouldn't...

 

I'm DEFINITELY buying this thing. 

[crispy4000]

12 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

IMHO, Nvidia has proven that a combination of their Nvidia Reflex and DLSS frame generation are enough.  I said 90, because I am not convinced that reflex/frame generation at a 60fps output is good enough.  At 90fps, based on my experience with it, it is great.

 

Even if AMD matched that, I think 90fps could become as much of a target as ‘4K’ has on console.  That’d be my concern.

[Spork3245]

If/When frame generation comes to consoles, it needs to be regulated as well as MSFT regulates "SeRiEs S mUsT hAvE aLl FeAtUrEs". What kind of regulation? "You can only use it if your fps is at a minimum of X" or something. I don't know what the minimum would be, but 30 -> 60 via frame gen will not work well as the input delay added is too massive when it's that low, the minimum for nVidia is an end result of 68-70fps in my experience, with AMD it seems that the base fps before FSR3 needs to be 50-60fps.

[AbsolutSurgen]

34 minutes ago, best3444 said:

So GTA 6 will indeed run at 60 fps like some of you said it wouldn't...

 

I'm DEFINITELY buying this thing. 

Will it?

[Keyser_Soze]

6 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Will it?

 

It will because the Pro uses pisser

[best3444]

12 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Will it?

 

Yep. 

[crispy4000]

46 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

If/When frame generation comes to consoles, it needs to be regulated as well as MSFT regulates "SeRiEs S mUsT hAvE aLl FeAtUrEs". What kind of regulation? "You can only use it if your fps is at a minimum of X" or something. I don't know what the minimum would be, but 30 -> 60 via frame gen will not work well as the input delay added is too massive when it's that low, the minimum for nVidia is an end result of 68-70fps in my experience, with AMD it seems that the base fps before FSR3 needs to be 50-60fps.

 

I have as much trust of that as I do Microsoft/Sony coercing developers to hit minimum resolution targets with FSR2.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

It’s increasing the CPU clock and power draw and sacrificing the GPU to do so. What situations for gaming would require more CPU and less GPU considering the rendering resolutions and the fact that consoles are typically “better tuned” to lessen CPU bottlenecks? 
I kinda think that rumor is AI generated BS  

My guess is standard ray tracing where they would be CPU limited since they are still going with an AMD GPU vs an Nvidia hardware solution. 

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

My guess is standard ray tracing where they would be CPU limited since they are still going with an AMD GPU vs an Nvidia hardware solution. 

RT is more GPU dependent than CPU

 (CPU scaling with a 4090: pre-path tracing update)

[TwinIon]

A tiny CPU clock bump, a good GPU upgrade, and frame gen feels very plausible for a passable but not exciting PS5 Pro. Its also a shame that the disc drive will be optional. If that is the shape of it, I'll need to see what the upgrades actually look like before shelling out.

[AbsolutSurgen]

 

[crispy4000]

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yep. DF confirmed the drop in GPU performance to boost the CPU is power limitations 

 

They do seem to think this will not be that big an improvement in many situations. Especially for CPU limited games. So if GTA6 is CPU limited on PS5 and 30fps as a result, the pro isnt enough of an upgrade to get 60fps. 

[best3444]

35 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Yep. DF confirmed the drop in GPU performance to boost the CPU is power limitations 

 

They do seem to think this will be that big an improvement in many situations. Especially for CPU limited games. So if GTA6 is CPU limited on PS5 and 30fps as a result, the pro isnt enough of an upgrade to get 60fps. 

 

What is the point of getting a pro then lol. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

32 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

What is the point of getting a pro then lol. 

the GPU improvements could lead to some better ray tracing effects and higher resolutions where the game isn’t actually outputting 4K now. More capable of better upscaling too, but they will need a patch in old games or options in new games where you can choose Quality or Balanced preset when on a regular PS5 performance preset may have been used. So higher internal resolution with a cleaner resulting output resolution. 
 

 

[crispy4000]

Basically, pay up if you want to avoid FSR2 artifacts for the rest of this gen.  And stay far away from a Series S at this point.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

19 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Basically, pay up if you want to avoid FSR2 artifacts for the rest of this gen.  And stay far away from a Series S at this point.

we shall see. I wonder if the PSSR in the pro is more to develop it for the PS6. If it releases without ghosting it will be the first upscaler to launch so well. 

[crispy4000]

52 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

we shall see. I wonder if the PSSR in the pro is more to develop it for the PS6. If it releases without ghosting it will be the first upscaler to launch so well. 

I expect minor artifacts/ghosting to continue to exist with any upscaller.  FSR2 just does especially poorly at lower input resolutions.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Sony Takes Down PS5 Pro Video From Known Tech YouTuber Moore's Law is Dead

WCCFTECH.COM

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Sony Interactive Entertainment has taken down a PS5 Pro video from last month from known Tech YouTuber 'Moore's Law is Dead'.

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Remember last month's PS5 Pro video from YouTuber Moore's Law is Dead? This video is no longer available following a copyright strike from Sony.

We reported on the video from the known tech YouTuber following its release last month. In the video, the YouTuber shared a document about Sony's upgraded PS5 model that offered new details and information about the console. Interesting new details include substantially faster rendering, up to three times improved ray tracing performance, and Sony's rumored own upscaling tech - PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution (PSSR). According to Eurogamer's Digital Foundry, this upscaling tech can allow for greatly improved image quality of existing PS5 titles. In addition, the outlet suggested that the Pro model will offer 1.2GB of additional RAM for games.

Fast forward one month and the video from 'Moore's Law is Dead' is no longer available on YouTube. "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Sony Interactive Entertainment", the link to the video now reads. While this doesn't necessarily mean that the information or details mentioned in the video were the real deal, recent reports, and rumors do seem to indicate that the leaked document was legit. Over the weekend, The Verge's Tom Warren said that the PS5 Pro is real, and Sony is reportedly asking developers to get their games ready over the summer. Down below we've included the rumored specs of the PS5 Pro that came out of the alleged leaked document from Moore's Law is Dead:

• Larger GPU with faster memory, providing 45% improved performance in rasterized rendering;
• Massively improved ray tracing architecture that should deliver 2-3x speedup over the regular PS5, with peaks of 4x;
• Custom machine learning architecture that supports 300 TOPS (Trillions of Operations Per Second) at 8-bit;
• The ML architecture was built to enable the so-called PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution (PSSR) upscaling technique. The leaked document describes it as Sony's version of Multi Frame Super Resolution based on the PlayStation Machine Learning (PSML) algorithm. According to the leaked info, PSSR currently supports up to 4K, but there are plans to add 8K support;
• PSSR is an ML-enhanced version of Temporal Anti-aliasing Upscaling (TAAU) that requires similar inputs to NVIDIA DLSS or AMD FSR and fully supports High Dynamic Range (HDR) pipelines. Moreover, no per-game training is required, just like with the latest version of DLSS. The document goes on to say PSSR requires just 250MB of the PS5 Pro's memory, with a current rendering cost of 2 milliseconds to upscale from Full HD to 4K, although optimization is still ongoing;
• The document also includes an image comparison with TAAU and AMD FSR 2, reportedly showing that PSSR offers superior image quality.

 

[TwinIon]

Sounds like Sony will have a wide definition of what qualifies as “enhanced for PS5 Pro.”

 

Sony wants 60fps PS5 Pro ‘Enhanced’ games, but it’s happy to settle for less - The Verge

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The PS5 Pro will boost older games, too.

 

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That could mean we see PS5 Pro Enhanced games that run at between 1080p and 1440p resolution at 30fps on the base PS5 and run between 1280p and 2160p on the PS5 Pro at the same frame rate. A fixed resolution increase from 1440p to 2160p would also qualify as a PS5 Pro Enhanced game. Developers could also choose to enable ray-tracing effects and get the PS5 Pro Enhanced label without improving resolution or frame rates. If a developer wants to target 60fps instead of 30fps with the same resolution, this may also qualify as a PS5 Pro Enhanced game.

 

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Sony’s PS5 Pro is real and developers are getting ready for it - The Verge

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Sony is pushing developers to focus on ray tracing.

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Sony is getting ready to release a more powerful PS5 console, possibly by the end of this year. After reports of leaked PS5 Pro specifications surfaced recently, The Verge has obtained a full list of specs for the upcoming console. Sources familiar with Sony’s plans tell me that developers are already being asked to ensure their games are compatible with this upcoming console, with a focus on improving ray tracing.

Codenamed Trinity, the PlayStation 5 Pro model will include a more powerful GPU and a slightly faster CPU mode. All of Sony’s changes point to a PS5 Pro that will be far more capable of rendering games with ray tracing enabled or hitting higher resolutions and frame rates in certain titles. Sony appears to be encouraging developers to use graphics features like ray tracing more with the PS5 Pro, with games able to use a “Trinity Enhanced” (PS5 Pro Enhanced) label if they “provide significant enhancements.”

Sony expects GPU rendering on the PS5 Pro to be “about 45 percent faster than standard PlayStation 5,” according to documents outlining the upcoming console. The PS5 Pro GPU will be larger and use faster system memory to help improve ray tracing in games. Sony is also using a “more powerful ray tracing architecture” in the PS5 Pro, where the speed here is up to three times better than the regular PS5.

“Trinity is a high-end version of PlayStation 5,” reads one document, with Sony indicating it will continue to sell the standard PS5 after this new model launches. Sony is expecting game developers to have a single package that will support both the PS5 and PS5 Pro consoles, with existing games able to be patched for higher performance.

I understand developers are able to order test kits right now and that Sony is expecting every game submitted to certification in August to be compatible with the PS5 Pro. Insider Gaming first reported the full PS5 Pro specs and indicated the console is set to release during the 2024 holiday period.

While Sony is improving the GPU side of the PS5 Pro, the CPU will be the same as the standard PS5 but with a new mode that clocks it higher. “Trinity has a mode that targets 3.85GHz CPU frequency,” says Sony in a document to developers. That’s around 10 percent more than the regular PS5. Sony will offer developers the ability to pick between a “standard mode” at 3.5GHz or the “high CPU frequency mode” at 3.85GHz.

The standard mode operates just like a regular PS5, where a certain amount of power is allocated to the CPU — it runs at 3.5GHz if the power budget allows for it or lower frequencies if the PS5 is performing “power-intensive operations.” Sony says these lower frequencies are rare and that unused power on the CPU side is sent to the GPU.

In this new high CPU frequency mode for the PS5 Pro, more power is allocated to the CPU, which means slightly less to the GPU. The GPU is downclocked by around 1.5 percent in this mode, which results in “roughly 1 percent lower performance,” according to Sony.

The PS5 Pro will also have some changes to system memory for developers. The standard PS5 memory runs at 448GB/s, but Sony is bumping this up by 28 percent to 576GB/s on the PS5 Pro. As the memory system is more efficient on the PS5 Pro, “the bandwidth gain may exceed 28 percent,” says Sony.

Developers will also get more access to overall system memory. Games can use an additional 1.2GB of system memory on the PS5 Pro, so that’s 13.7GB overall compared to the 12.5GB allocated to games on the base PS5.

The increase in memory speed and allocations “may be useful” for Sony’s new PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution (PSSR) support. This is essentially Sony’s upscaling answer to Nvidia’s DLSS or AMD’s FSR to improve frame rates and image quality on PlayStation. Sony has built a “custom architecture for machine learning” on the PS5 Pro, which supports 300TOPS of 8-bit computation.

This new architecture supports Sony’s custom PSSR upscaling solution, which is designed to replace a game’s existing temporal anti-aliasing or upsampling implementation. Sony notes that “inputs are quite similar to DLSS or FSR” and that full HDR support is included. This support requires around 250MB of memory, which is why the memory allocations on the PS5 Pro should help here. Sony says there is around 2ms of latency involved in upscaling a 1080p image to 4K and that the company is working to support resolutions up to 8K and even improve the latency in the future.

If developers are able to get their games ready in time, I fully expect to see a PS5 Pro launch this holiday season. Sony appears to be following the same playbook as the PS4, with a “Slim” PS5 model and then a Pro edition. I’m expecting to see an “enhanced” library of existing games for the PS5 Pro launch and new first-party games arriving over time with improved ray-tracing support for this new console.

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

15 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Sony’s PS5 Pro is real and developers are getting ready for it - The Verge

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

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Sony is pushing developers to focus on ray tracing.

 

So Sony’s resolution upscaling is targeting DLSS Performance mode. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

10 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

So Sony’s resolution upscaling is targeting DLSS Performance mode. 

I don't think you can make that inference from that article.  I suspect it will have a variety of modes for different games, just like DLSS or FSR.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

14 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I don't think you can make that inference from that article.  I suspect it will have a variety of modes for different games, just like DLSS or FSR.

Probably. I got it from the mention of 2mm of added latency when upscaling to 4k from 1080p. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

DF Weekly: New PS5 Pro GPU details emerge - including a 2.35GHz max boost clock

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Digital Foundry has new details on the PS5 Pro GPU - including its maximum boost clock and new features.

 

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A new week and a fresh Monday brings with it the hopefully welcome prospect of a new episode of DF Direct Weekly - and this week, the team sit down to discuss topics as diverse as Starfield's planned performance upgrade for Xbox Series X, the latest Switch 2 rumours, more path tracing in Capcom RE Engine titles and some new information on the PlayStation 5 Pro's GPU - such as a max clock speed of 2.35GHz.

 

It's the PS5 Pro graphics details I'm going to concentrate on today because the information casts an interesting new light on the upcoming console - and may deliver clarity on some of the question marks surrounding GPU performance and backwards compatibility with the existing PS5. Leaked specifications, derived from Sony's developer portal, suggest that the PS5 Pro has 30 WGP (Work Group Processors) delivering 33.5 teraflops of performance. This is up against the standard model with 18 WGP offering up an equivalent 10.23 teraflops.

 

On the surface level, that's an extra 227 percent of performance, except that the same Sony documents suggest only an extra 45 percent of actual game throughput. Part of the explanation comes from the RDNA 3 architecture with its dual-issue FP32 support, which doubles the amount of instructions processed, but which does not typically double game performance.

 

 

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However, beyond that, there has been confusion about backwards compatibility support with the standard PS5. We know that the PS5 has 36 compute units (two CUs per WGP), running at a maximum of 2.23GHz. However, 'reverse-engineering' PS5 Pro's 33.5TF figue suggests a 2.18GHz clock from its 60 CUs, lower than that of the standard model. Something doesn't quite make sense then, with some suggesting that the new console actually has 56 CUs, with four disabled, which would deliver a higher clock to hit that 33.5TF - and perhaps in the process provide a hardware balance that's a better fit for PS5 game compatibility.

 

Recent details we've seen - a part of Sony's recent developer disclosures - seem to tidy up the discrepancies to a certain degree. The standard PS5 features 18 WGP over two shader engines/four shader arrays in a 5-4-5-4 configuration, while the Pro does indeed feature 30 active WGPs over two shader engines/four shader arrays in an 8-7-8-7 set-up. Both consoles, therefore, feature four deactivated CUs - and this is confirmation of 60 CUs in the new machine.

 

This means that the stated 33.5TF does indeed suggest a slightly lower clock-speed for the GPU in the region of 2.18GHz - which may be the case in general operation, but the new information also reveals that the PlayStation 5 Pro can boost higher than its standard counterpart, to a maximum of 2.35GHz (a theoretical maximum of 36.1TF). However, similar to the original PS5, system performance is limited by a power ceiling, so it's rather rare for the GPU to hit that maximum and only certain games will boost that high. Bearing in mind the surfeit of compute power for standard PlayStation 5 games, we must assume that the slight reduction in general clock speed (just under three percent) likely makes no difference, while the 'ultra boost' mode should instead deliver much more graphics throughput for existing titles.

 

 

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The cache structure of the new GPU changes in some areas. The 4MB of L2 cache per WGP remains the same, while L1 doubles from 128KB to 256KB to accommodate the larger numbers of compute units per shader engine. L0 cache also improves from 16KB to 32KB, which Sony says is to accommodate higher ray tracing performance.

 

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Elsewhere, the PlayStation 5 Pro's GPU evolves to include DirectX12 Ultimate features that were omitted from the original console - so, hardware support for variable rate shading is included, along with extra features for hybrid MSAA. The primitive shader features found in RDNA 1 and the vanilla PS5 are augmented with full support for mesh shaders, which should hopefully see more widespread adoption of a very useful feature. Sony points out how the stricter requirements of this feature up against PC APIs are no longer an issue.