General Gaming AMD needs frame generation so consoles can have it.

[Spork3245]

Having played exactly one game with DLSS3 Frame Generation (Flight Simulator) on my shiny new 4090, I can say with all the confidence in the world: gamers need this in their lives. 

With frame generation off, ultra settings at 4k using TAA (Flight Simulator), I get around 40-50fps. Ultra settings, 4k using DLSS set to quality-mode, my fps moves up to around 60-70-ish. Now, both the Series X and PS5 should be able to use AMD's version of DLSS called FSR, so that boost alone is a big win for console gamers (plus it can boost further with other modes besides the aforementioned "quality" mode)... however, Ultra settings, 4k + DLSS set to quality with Frame Generation enabled, now my fps never dips below 100 and is almost always in the 120-140fps range. Holy. F. This is a game that the previous generation of GPUs could barely pull 40+fps out of in 4k with a mix of low, medium, and high settings.

 

So, what is frame generation? Well, us nerds in those two nVidia threads know all about it, but I want to make a post for the people who ignore PC Hardware threads. In the simplest of terms, the GPU uses AI to create "fake-frames" between the actual frames that are being rendered, thus boosting frame rate. In a way it's similar to motion smoothing on TVs, the difference being that this does not cause any notable input lag as the GPU is using "tricks" to mitigate that. This tech is honestly the future, and if "pro" versions of the Series X and PS5 come out and offer this tech/something similar we are in for a wonderful high-quality graphics + high framerate future!

 

[stepee]

Isn’t it also different than motion smoothing in that an actual frame in between the frames is actually being generated by AI that appears roughly correct which is why it just looks normal rather than looking strange like nothing smoothing?

 

Someone put together a video of spider-man at 60fps by using only the ai generated frames and it looks pretty much normal, which is insane. I think that same test with motion smoothing would just be a black screen or some nonsense.

 

 

[Spork3245]

2 minutes ago, stepee said:

Isn’t it also different than motion smoothing in that an actual frame in between the frames is actually being generated by AI that appears roughly correct which is why it just looks normal rather than looking strange like nothing smoothing?

Yea, I’m just trying to simplify it

[Mr.Vic20]

In terms of frames it means:

 

[Xbob42]

With AI frame generation we can now abuse limited console hardware harder than ever before, allowing us to hit 30 FPS while introducing a bunch of half-baked visual effects that clash with our art style!

[crispy4000]

Here’s a wild historical article on topic:

 

LucasArts' 60FPS Force Unleashed II tech demo

WWW.EUROGAMER.NET

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At the recent SIGGRAPH 2010, LucasArts coder Dmitry Andreev showed off a quite remarkable tech demo based on work he ca…

 

Could be possible without AI.  We could have seen it two generations ago.

 

[crispy4000]

One thing that does make me worried is that Nvidia’s implementation has perceptible artifacting below 80fps output. (According to DF)

 

That’s not good enough to help consoles IMO.  Or 60fps minded PC gamers. We still have a ways to go.

 

[stepee]

2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

One thing that does make me worried is that Nvidia’s implementation has perceptible artifacting below 80fps output. (According to DF)

 

That’s not good enough to help consoles IMO.  Or 60fps minded PC gamers. We still have a ways to go.

 

 

I’m not too worried with how well it’s working in it’s first test launch here, I’m sure there will be tons of qol improvements over the half decade or so before the new consoles roll out (there definitely will not be a amd solution ready in time for pro consoles if they happen).

 

For PC, I think it’s just going to be moving to a 120fps standard now anyway on the high end which includes basically all the pc gamers on here, so it’s all good. I do think sooner than later it’ll work for 60fps fine though.

[TheLeon]

Ok, I’ll make sure they get right on that. 

[Mr.Vic20]

3 minutes ago, TheLeon said:

Ok, I’ll make sure they get right on that. 

[Spork3245]

11 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

I’m not too worried with how well it’s working in it’s first test launch here, I’m sure there will be tons of qol improvements over the half decade or so before the new consoles roll out (there definitely will not be a amd solution ready in time for pro consoles if they happen).

 

For PC, I think it’s just going to be moving to a 120fps standard now anyway on the high end which includes basically all the pc gamers on here, so it’s all good. I do think sooner than later it’ll work for 60fps fine though.

Remember how shit DLSS v1 was? I think frame generation is only going to get a lot better.

[Mr.Vic20]

I really want Nvidia to be bullish in encouraging developers to adopt DLSS3. Whatever it takes, monsy, support, etc.  Its phenominal and it needs to get a lot of attention so that AMD feels the need to respond in a meaninful way! 

[stepee]

Honestly, I think nvidia will solve the vsync/60fps issues and AMD won’t have a choice, they can’t just decide to forever be around 50-100% slower on top of whatever other differences. I definitely don’t think they can brute force their way past nvidia unless future cards are wheel shaped and require a hamster to generate power.

 

Give that, I expect AMD is already working on their own probably open source version of it and I would imagine that would be ready in time for the next consoles. The question I guess is where will nvidia be by then though.

 

Its going to be an interesting generation because not quite two years in yet and look at a game like Plague’s Tale Requiem. 1440p/30 on the latest consoles. 175/4k using dlss3 on pc. You are talking almost a 12x power difference being shown just in pure performance/iq. Not counting higher settings for pc. There will will probably be 2-3 generations of improvements from here by the time the next consoles hit.
 

So basically one or two things will have to happen, pc’s will essentially no longer be anywhere within the same generation as consoles power wise, or the leap next generation for consoles will be one like we haven’t seen since the 90s.

 

 

[Mr.Vic20]

4 minutes ago, stepee said:

Honestly, I think nvidia will solve the vsync/60fps issues and AMD won’t have a choice, they can’t just decide to forever be around 50-100% slower on top of whatever other differences. I definitely don’t think they can brute force their way past nvidia unless future cards are wheel shaped and require a hamster to generate power.

 

Give that, I expect AMD is already working on their own probably open source version of it and I would imagine that would be ready in time for the next consoles. The question I guess is where will nvidia be by then though.

 

Its going to be an interesting generation because not quite two years in yet and look at a game like Plague’s Tale Requiem. 1440p/30 on the latest consoles. 175/4k using dlss3 on pc. You are talking almost a 12x power difference being shown just in pure performance/iq. Not counting higher settings for pc. There will will probably be 2-3 generations of improvements from here by the time the next consoles hit.
 

So basically one or two things will have to happen, pc’s will essentially no longer be anywhere within the same generation as consoles power wise, or the leap next generation for consoles will be one like we haven’t seen since the 90s.

 

 

And a Plague's Tale Requiem is quite a looker while running at that insane frame rate! 

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

And a Plague's Tale Requiem is quite a looker while running at that insane frame rate! 
 

 

 

I know it has DLSS3, but does it use frame gen too?

[stepee]

7 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

 

I know it has DLSS3, but does it use frame gen too?

 

I’m not even sure what dlss3 even is beyond frame generation, like I know the settings are separate but isn’t dlss3 just branding for dlss + image generation?

 

Either way, yes it has frame generation and it’s fucking unreal.

[stepee]

its just stupid

 

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

I’m not even sure what dlss3 even is beyond frame generation, like I know the settings are separate but isn’t dlss3 just branding for dlss + image generation?

 

Either way, yes it has frame generation and it’s fucking unreal.

Image generation can be turned on without DLSS3 enabled. DLSS3 is a better performing DLSS and is allegedly 25-30%+ more efficient than 2.0.

[stepee]

14 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Image generation can be turned on without DLSS3 enabled. DLSS3 is a better performing DLSS and is allegedly 25-30%+ more efficient than 2.0.

 

I guess it’s just there isn’t a “dlss3” setting you would see, since it’s just the super resolution setting now either way. I’d imagine it’s improved tensor cores making the difference unless there is a dlss3 without image generation implementation that can run on 20/30 series that is improved.

 

Its confusing branding either way, but what I don’t think you’ll see is dlss3 being advertised and the game not having image generation, I’d always expect both to be available if you see it.

[Mr.Vic20]

40 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

 

I know it has DLSS3, but does it use frame gen too?

Yup. and DLSS3 is frame generation as far as I can tell. Thee may be other tweeks to DLSS 2, but I think that's the parimary difference. 

[Spork3245]

7 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

I guess it’s just there isn’t a “dlss3” setting you would see, since it’s just the super resolution setting now either way. I’d imagine it’s improved tensor cores making the difference unless there is a dlss3 without image generation implementation that can run on 20/30 series that is improved.

 

Its confusing branding either way, but what I don’t think you’ll see is dlss3 being advertised and the game not having image generation, I’d always expect both to be available if you see it.

Well, just like DLSS2 vs 1 vs 1.3, etc, in games, the setting is just labeled as “DLSS”. According to nVidia, if a game has DLSS3 and you have a 2000 or 3000 RTX card, you still benefit as it’ll “automatically” use 2.0 for you.

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

Yup. and DLSS3 is frame generation as far as I can tell. Thee may be other tweeks to DLSS 2, but I think that's the parimary difference. 

I think there’s more to it. Before they talked about frame generation in the unveil, they noted that 3.0 offered a 25-30% improvement over 2.0. In Flight Simulator and Spider-Man, frame generation is a separate option from DLSS.

[Mr.Vic20]

Its true, they did suggest that, but I'm not seeing how or what that is. I believe they attributed that boost to a new generation of more efficient tensor cores maybe? 

[Spork3245]

Just now, Mr.Vic20 said:

Its true, they did suggest that, but I'm not seeing how or what that is. I believe they attributed that boost to a new generation of more efficient tensor cores maybe? 

That’s my assumption

[legend]

IMO, AMD should aim for better AI acceleration for the next console generation period. Modern AI is coming hard for games in lots of ways not limited super sampling and frame generation.

[Spork3245]

13 minutes ago, legend said:

IMO, AMD should aim for better AI acceleration for the next console generation period. Modern AI is coming hard for games in lots of ways not limited super sampling and frame generation.

This is exactly what an AI would say 

[legend]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

This is exactly what an AI would say 

 

And it would be telling you want to expect!  

[Spork3245]

Just now, legend said:

 

And it would be telling you want to expect!  

Seaman 2, now with the ability to learn vocabulary 

[Mr.Vic20]

1 minute ago, legend said:

 

And it would be telling you want to expect!  

But what if I've done my own *reserach* and determine we should focus exclusively on voxels going forward?! 

[legend]

6 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Seaman 2, now with the ability to learn vocabulary 

 

Psh. Language models are the most boring of AI tech, despite their current popularity.

 

(Though I am interested in language integrated with other stuff and text to images is a step in the right direction)

 

5 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

But what if I've done my own *reserach* and determine we should focus exclusively on voxels going forward?! 

 

Oh god, that's a blast from the past.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, legend said:

 

Psh. Language models are the most boring of AI tech, despite their current popularity.

 

(Though I am interested in language integrated with other stuff and text to images is a step in the right direction)

 

 

Oh god, that's a blast from the past.

You say that now, but then Seaman learns your phone number and starts texting you at 3am

[legend]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

You say that now, but then Seaman learns your phone number and starts texting you at 3am

 

Then he'll get a taste of his own medicine when a bot screens the call!

[Spork3245]

12 minutes ago, legend said:

 

Then he'll get a taste of his own medicine when a bot screens the call!

But it’s a text

[legend]

29 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

But it’s a text

 

That just makes it easier!

[Zaku3]

As our resident AMD fan I haven't heard any rumors on machine learning that I can think of.

 

I will of course ask Dr Lisa Su but I am expecting her to reply with an Epyc go brrrrrt.