Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 US SEC approves bitcoin ETFs in watershed for crypto market (Reuters) Quote The U.S. securities regulator on Wednesday approved the first U.S.-listed exchange traded funds (ETFs) to track bitcoin, in a watershed for the world's largest cryptocurrency and the broader crypto industry. The Securities and Exchange Commission said it approved 11 applications, including from BlackRock (BLK.N), Ark Investments/21Shares (ABTC.S), Fidelity, Invesco (IVZ.N) and VanEck, despite warnings from some officials and investor advocates that the products carried risks. Most of the products are expected to begin trading Thursday, issuers said, kicking off a fierce competition for market share. A decade in the making, the ETFs are a game-changer for bitcoin, offering investors exposure to the world's largest cryptocurrency without directly holding it. They provide a major boost for a crypto industry beset by scandals. "It's a huge positive for the institutionalization of bitcoin as an asset class," said Andrew Bond, managing director and senior fintech analyst at Rosenblatt Securities. Standard Chartered analysts this week said the ETFs could draw $50 billion to $100 billion this year alone. Other analysts have said inflows will be closer to $55 billion over five years. The market capitalization of bitcoin stood at more than $913 billion as of Wednesday, according to CoinGecko. As of December 2022, total net assets of U.S. ETFs stood at $6.5 trillion, according to the Investment Company Institute. Bitcoin was last up 3% at $47,300. The cryptocurrency has soared more than 70% in recent months in anticipation of an ETF, and hit its highest level since March 2022 this week. Success in the battle for inflows will mostly depend on fees and liquidity, analysts say. Some issuers slashed their proposed fees in new filings this week, including BlackRock and Ark/21Shares. Those fees range from 0.2% to 1.5%, with many firms offering to waive fees entirely for a certain period of time. For short-term speculators looking to buy in and out of the products, liquidity could be more important. PC Gamer was a bit more cheeky in their take: US SEC begrudgingly approves Bitcoin trades but warns investors it's a 'speculative, volatile asset that's also used for ransomware, money laundering, sanction evasion, and terrorist financing' | PC Gamer WWW.PCGAMER.COM Doesn't seem too happy about it. Quote The SEC's approval should therefore be seen as something of a begrudging one, and the statement issued alongside it does nothing to dispel that interpretation. "Though we’re merit neutral, I’d note that the underlying assets in the metals ETPs have consumer and industrial uses," said SEC Chair Gary Gensler, "while in contrast bitcoin is primarily a speculative, volatile asset that’s also used for illicit activity including ransomware, money laundering, sanction evasion, and terrorist financing. "While we approved the listing and trading of certain spot bitcoin ETP shares today, we did not approve or endorse bitcoin. Investors should remain cautious about the myriad risks associated with bitcoin and products whose value is tied to crypto." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 What an idiotic decision. Capitalism is so awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I haven't been following the crypto/bitcoin situation for awhile now. Can someone explain to me again why this is bad, etc. in plain terms? My brother and a good friend of his were both pretty happy with this, they are invested in bitcoin though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said: I haven't been following the crypto/bitcoin situation for awhile now. Can someone explain to me again why this is bad, etc. in plain terms? My brother and a good friend of his were both pretty happy with this, they are invested in bitcoin though. It's "bad" in the sense that it gives legitimacy to an asset class that's highly speculative and volatile with all the usual risks that entails. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 7 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: It's "bad" in the sense that it gives legitimacy to an asset class that's highly speculative and volatile with all the usual risks that entails. Aren't there already plenty of speculative and volatile money, stock, and asset management options out there already? Is this just more of the same or something to be more worried about than usual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I haven't been following the crypto/bitcoin situation for awhile now. Can someone explain to me again why this is bad, etc. in plain terms? My brother and a good friend of his were both pretty happy with this, they are invested in bitcoin though. The government agency in charge of regulating the marketplace took a look at a "currency," saw that it was developed in part to increase the wealth of those holding it at the expense of energy production and climate damage, understands that the only practical use of that currency is for illicit trades, and then decided to give the green light for people to trade it as an investment. SFLU spoke to the practical issues. I'm covering the moral issues with responsible management of investments allowed. Because there's no low capital won't stoop to. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Just now, CayceG said: The government agency in charge of regulating the marketplace took a look at a "currency," saw that it was developed in part to increase the wealth of those holding it at the expense of energy production and climate damage, understands that the only practical use of that currency is for illicit trades, and then decided to give the green light for people to trade it as an investment. SFLU spoke to the practical issues. I'm covering the moral issues with responsible management of investments allowed. Because there's no low capital won't stoop to. Ah okay I follow you. I agree, I have the same worries about energy production and climate change. There's definitely no low capital won't stoop to. Can you elaborate on the currency for illicit trades? Also, the more this is legitimized, won't that go away maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said: Aren't there already plenty of speculative and volatile money, stock, and asset management out options there already? Is this just more of the same or something to be more worried about than usual? Absolutely - which is why from a purely practical/non-"moral" perspective (as per @CayceG's post), there really was no compelling financial argument for the SEC to not follow this course of action. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 8 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: Can you elaborate on the currency for illicit trades? Also, the more this is legitimized, won't that go away maybe? No, because this approval doesn't address the uses of the underlying asset class itself, which is outside the purview of the SEC. My understanding is that most illicit activity involving crypto doesn't actually involve bitcoin, but rather some of the less widely-held "currencies". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricofoley Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Prices have quietly been creeping back up towards the previous peaks since the crash in 2022. Governments should've finished the job after the crash by regulating this stuff out of existence. We're probably stuck with this shit for a long while now. Bitcoin (BTC) Price, Real-time Quote & News - Google Finance WWW.GOOGLE.COM Get the latest Bitcoin (BTC / USD) real-time quote, historical performance, charts, and other cryptocurrency information to help you make more informed trading and investment decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 19 minutes ago, Ricofoley said: Prices have quietly been creeping back up towards the previous peaks since the crash in 2022. Governments should've finished the job after the crash by regulating this stuff out of existence. We're probably stuck with this shit for a long while now. Bitcoin (BTC) Price, Real-time Quote & News - Google Finance WWW.GOOGLE.COM Get the latest Bitcoin (BTC / USD) real-time quote, historical performance, charts, and other cryptocurrency information to help you make more informed trading and investment decisions. Perhaps this will be good news for the $2.50 worth of Stellar Lumens I have! I'll be able to take @Greatoneshere to a fancy dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Do you ever wish you were the pizza guy who was paid 10,000 bitcoins from like 15 years ago? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said: Aren't there already plenty of speculative and volatile money, stock, and asset management options out there already? Is this just more of the same or something to be more worried about than usual? Yes, but perhaps this is an argument to not allow a lot of the super high risk ETFs and funds out there rather than to allow crypto ETFs. It gives legitimacy to an "asset" class that for a variety of reasons, we should all be skeptical of having long-term value of any kind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 41 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said: I'll be able to take @Greatoneshere to a fancy dinner. 16 minutes ago, Massdriver said: Yes, but perhaps this is an argument to not allow a lot of the super high risk ETFs and funds out there rather than to allow crypto ETFs. It gives legitimacy to an "asset" class that for a variety of reasons, we should all be skeptical of having long-term value of any kind. I agree but is there any likelihood of that ever happening? Not saying we should open the floodgates, but if you do have investment into bitcoin, on an individual micro level as opposed to the macro level, people should get in and make their bread in the meantime I assume? Seems people I know are seeing it that way. I'm not too plugged in, can you explain (or anyone) why crypto/bitcoin is so volatile? I know it crashed, but hell, stock markets crash from time to time. Is there some reason to be particularly wary here vs. how stuff is normally conducted? Just trying to also see if I should dissuade the people I know from continuing with their bitcoin investments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 20 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I agree but is there any likelihood of that ever happening? Not saying we should open the floodgates, but if you do have investment into bitcoin, on an individual micro level as opposed to the macro level, people should get in and make their bread in the meantime I assume? Seems people I know are seeing it that way. I'm not too plugged in, can you explain (or anyone) why crypto/bitcoin is so volatile? I know it crashed, but hell, stock markets crash from time to time. Is there some reason to be particularly wary here vs. how stuff is normally conducted? Just trying to also see if I should dissuade the people I know from continuing with their bitcoin investments. It's not likely, but it's possible to happen one day in the future. To be clear, I was talking about restricting speculative ETFs that are highly leveraged and extremely complex. I'm perfectly fine with ETFs that hold stocks and bond indexes unleveraged. They empower individuals in our system. As for why it's so volatile, that's pretty complicated. It has a lot to do with liquidity/24 hour trading, low regulations, and the purely speculative nature of what it is. I don't know if it's worth bothering trying to dissuade people you know from investing in it unless they have nearly all their money in it and are borrowing money to invest more. If it continued to go up, you would get the blame for convincing them to get out. Most people probably wouldn't listen anyway. Also Bitcoin and Ether seem to be the "safest" to put money in in terms of it not going to zero because they are the 1st and 2nd most popular crypto. Any of the other little coins could go to zero a lot easier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, Massdriver said: It's not likely, but it's possible to happen one day in the future. To be clear, I was talking about restricting speculative ETFs that are highly leveraged and extremely complex. I'm perfectly fine with ETFs that hold stocks and bond indexes unleveraged. They empower individuals in our system. As for why it's so volatile, that's pretty complicated. It has a lot to do with liquidity/24 hour trading, low regulations, and the purely speculative nature of what it is. I don't know if it's worth bothering trying to dissuade people you know from investing in it unless they have nearly all their money in it and are borrowing money to invest more. If it continued to go up, you would get the blame for convincing them to get out. Most people probably wouldn't listen anyway. Also Bitcoin and Ether seem to be the "safest" to put money in. Any of the other little coins could go to zero a lot easier. Thank you! This helped, makes a lot of sense. They are not throwing all their money in by any means, so glad they're good there at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I think putting some amount of money into crypto is fine from a personal finances angle as long as you view it as gambling and are budgeting for it the same way you'd set aside some cash to blow at a casino. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I’m investing in Tulips personally 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 Vanguard doesn't appear to be interested...for now. One place you won't find a bitcoin ETF: Jack Bogle's Vanguard WWW.CNBC.COM Vanguard said it will not launch a bitcoin ETF, even as its chief rival BlackRock debuted a fund on Thursday. Quote More than a dozen financial firms are involved in new bitcoin ETFs that began trading on Thursday, but one of the biggest fund issuers and money managers in the world still won’t touch cryptocurrency. A Vanguard spokeswoman told CNBC that the asset management giant has no plans to create a bitcoin ETF of its own, or to even offer funds from other issuers on its trading platform. “While we continuously evaluate our brokerage offer and evaluate new product entries to the market, spot Bitcoin ETFs will not be available for purchase on the Vanguard platform. We also have no plans to offer Vanguard Bitcoin ETFs or other crypto-related products,” the statement said. “Our perspective is that these products do not align with our offer focused on asset classes such as equities, bonds, and cash, which Vanguard views as the building blocks of a well-balanced, long-term investment portfolio,” the statement continued. Vanguard is one of two dominant players in the U.S. ETF market. Its chief rival BlackRock has entered the bitcoin space, with the iShares Bitcoin Trust (IBIT) launching Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 33 minutes ago, Jason said: I think putting some amount of money into crypto is fine from a personal finances angle as long as you view it as gambling and are budgeting for it the same way you'd set aside some cash to blow at a casino. I agree - to be fair I tell anyone who invests in anything to make sure it's money you don't mind maybe losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 41 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I agree - to be fair I tell anyone who invests in anything to make sure it's money you don't mind maybe losing. Investing isn’t gambling, you can basically count on an 8% annual return over a long enough period; especially in todays index fund based world. Trading is gambling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, TUFKAK said: Investing isn’t gambling, you can basically count on an 8% annual return over a long enough period; especially in todays index fund based world. Trading is gambling. I completely agree, I just like to be clear with people who are often overly hesitant in parting with their money; these are the types who hate losing even a little money, so I always tell them that if you want to be on the safe side, don't part with what you don't think you can lose. They won't gain as much money either, but peace of mind is more important I think to these people than financial gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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