Seymour Hersh alleges that the US is responsible for the destruction of the Nord Stream Pipelines

[CayceG]

I will be reading this later today. Typical of Hersh's writing, it appears to be a highly intriguing narrative. 

 

Unfortunately, Hersh himself has a bad track record of relying on single anonymous sources, sources within intelligence services, or complete hearsay. This resulted in outright falsehoods spread by him about JFK and the operation to kill Osama bin Laden, and Hersh spreading conspiracy theories around Seth Rich, falsehoods surrounding Assad's use of chemical weapons in Syria, and denying that the Sergei Skripal poisoning was committed by Russia. 

 

But for all his failures in his writing, he did break the story of the My Lai Massacre as well as the planning of the Iraq Invasion a year before it happened. So he's had some hits. I remain skeptical that this will be revealed as corroborated truth and will be on the lookout for anonymous sources. 

 

How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

SEYMOURHERSH.SUBSTACK.COM

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The New York Times called it a “mystery,” but the United States executed a covert sea operation that was kept secret—until now

 

 

 

[Mr.Vic20]

I too can write spy novels!

Spoiler

I can't, well likely not a very good one, but you get the point...

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

he's got strong "he predicted the last recession!" energy

[Zaku3]

38 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

I too can write spy novels!

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't, well likely not a very good one, but you get the point...

 

 

Occam's razor says its an accident but it's kinda sus that it happened during all this tension. We may never truly know the truth unless someone finds like the order for this in a Russian archive in the future or the US is forced to admit it which is unlikely since the mainstream media is a propaganda arm of the state. But is being an accident is the simplest explaination. 

 

The guy's track record is mixed though and he does have an anti-US bias based on what Cayce posted.

[CayceG]

4 minutes ago, Zaku3 said:

 

Occam's razor says its an accident but it's kinda sus that it happened during all this tension. We may never truly know the truth unless someone finds like the order for this in a Russian archive in the future or the US is forced to admit it which is unlikely since the mainstream media is a propaganda arm of the state. But is being an accident is the simplest explaination. 

 

The guy's track record is mixed though and he does have an anti-US bias based on what Cayce posted.

 

 

Occam's razor is definitely NOT that it was an accident. Someone blew a hole in the pipelines. It's just finding out who.

 

And I'm not saying that the US couldn't have either. I'm eager to read Hersh's article to see what he brings to the narrative. 

[Zaku3]

Just now, CayceG said:

 

 

Occam's razor is definitely NOT that it was an accident. Someone blew a hole in the pipelines. It's just finding out who.

 

And I'm not saying that the US couldn't have either. I'm eager to read Hersh's article to see what he brings to the narrative. 

 

Oo sorry mah bad I didnt actually read to deeply into it so I didn't know that it was a hole that was blown in the pipelines. Was it multiple holes or just like one big one on each pipeline? To back you up ya no way an accident or natural wear and tear would make holes in 3 seperate pipelines at the same time.

 

 

But ya if I had to pick between Russia and the US. I'd consider the US the more likely because denying Russia the ability to supply natural gas to Europe benefits the US more then Russia. 

 

Ok back to my House MD marathon. I love Sherlock Holmes and the guy that gave me a 2nd opinion thinks lupus might be what's causing my swolen lymph nodes. Made my primary laugh when I told him from what I remember from House it's never Lupus until you can fully prove it's lupus. Surgery is set for Feb 20th.

 

[CayceG]

9 minutes ago, Zaku3 said:

 

Oo sorry mah bad I didnt actually read to deeply into it so I didn't know that it was a hole that was blown in the pipelines. Was it multiple holes or just like one big one on each pipeline? To back you up ya no way an accident or natural wear and tear would make holes in 3 seperate pipelines at the same time.

 

 

But ya if I had to pick between Russia and the US. I'd consider the US the more likely because denying Russia the ability to supply natural gas to Europe benefits the US more then Russia. 

 

Ok back to my House MD marathon. I love Sherlock Holmes and the guy that gave me a 2nd opinion thinks lupus might be what's causing my swolen lymph nodes. Made my primary laugh when I told him from what I remember from House it's never Lupus until you can fully prove it's lupus. Surgery is set for Feb 20th.

 

 

 

Of the four pipelines, three had holes blown into them with explosives. They are far enough apart to where it is virtually impossible for one accidental explosion to have done the damage to all three pipelines. 

[PaladinSolo]

The whole thing sounds like a fantasy, just gonna grab some navy divers so we don't have to tell congress, plant some bombs 300 feet below the surface and let them sit there for 3 months, then air drop a bouy FROM ANOTHER NATIONS PLANE and hope that shit still works, lol.  Also this source knows literally the entire plot, is it Joe Biden?  

 

How it'd more likely go down, is they get some CIA spook a boat and some drones, sets explosives, shit blows up, don't have to tell half the fucking world your plot.

[Zaku3]

29 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

 

Of the four pipelines, three had holes blown into them with explosives. They are far enough apart to where it is virtually impossible for one accidental explosion to have done the damage to all three pipelines. 

 

Thank you. I haven't been keeping up with news with all the craziness going on.

[CayceG]

My critical evaluation and questions regarding Hersh's proposed series of events:

 

Issues with reporting:

 

1. "A source with direct knowledge of the operational planning" is listed as the only source for the information presented. Anonymous. No affiliated unit or organization listed. 

 

2. Hersh alleges that the planning for the operation took place from late 2021 into 2022. Is the source for this the same single unnamed source from earlier?

 

3. "Tensions were constantly escalating between Russia and NATO, backed by the aggressive foreign policy of the Biden Administration." Not really any other reasons? The Biden Administration was solely at fault? Okay. 

 

4. Hersh describes Gazprom as a "a publicly traded Russian company producing enormous profits for shareholders which is dominated by oligarchs known to be in the thrall of Putin." That's going around his ass to get to his elbow. It's state-owned. 

 

5. Hersh sought comment from Dr. Ted Postol on the technical issues behind detonating the bombs remotely. Dr. Ted Postol is one of the main players in the Syrian gas attack stories that seek to pin the blame on the White Helmets rather than Assad. Dr. Postol's work on those stories have since been debunked by Bellingcat and others as having poor scientific basis. 

 

 

 

 

Questions:

1. Hersh alleges that the explosives were planted during the BALTOPS 22 exercise from June 5 through June 17th and timed to explode later (September 26). Is this possible without explosives degradation?

 

2. The single anonymous source Hersh uses presents information from top secret meetings held by a newly formed task force that included the Joint Chiefs, CIA, State, and Treasury. How highly placed is this source? If they aren't part of the meetings, how would they know this?

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

The administration’s attention once again was focused on Nord Stream. As long as Europe remained dependent on the pipelines for cheap natural gas, Washington was afraid that countries like Germany would be reluctant to supply Ukraine with the money and weapons it needed to defeat Russia.

 

This is essentially the article's thesis. It makes sense when you connect the dots of what the US wants and what Russia wants. You wind up at the eventual conclusion that the US must have done this. But, narrative aside, Hersh doesn't have anything resembling proof that he can back up here. 

[Anathema-]

sounds like a great Tom Clancy

[CayceG]

And I've found something more...

 

 

 

The Finnish finance and business magazine Talouselama featured an article on September 28, 2022 that reports on Russian media claims about the responsible party:

Venäläismedia väittää: Yhdysvallat räjäytti kaasuputket – Kreml pitää lännen syytteitä ”absurdeina”

WWW.TALOUSELAMA.FI

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Median väitteen mukaan Nord Stream-putkien katkaisu antaa amerikkalaisfirmoille ylivoimaisen kilpailuedun. Syytökset Venäjän syyllisyydestä räjähdyksiin ovat Kremlin mukaan ”absurdeja”.

 

Translated via google:

Quote

In the Russian media, the United States was known as the scapegoat for gas pipeline sabotage.
 

For example, in the analysis of the patriotic publication Vzgljad, it was recalled that the United States has long opposed the introduction of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Last February, before the Russian attack on Ukraine, President Joe Biden threatened that the United States would suspend the operation of the pipeline if the attack was carried out. At the time, Biden's statement caused a diplomatic polemic between Germany and the USA.
 

Vzgljad's analysis reminds us that cutting the Nord Stream pipelines gives American companies an overwhelming competitive advantage when they transport overpriced liquefied natural gas to Europe.

According to the Russian claim, the US Navy has been the operator in the gas pipeline explosions, and the installation of explosive charges equipped with a time detonator was carried out in connection with the Baltops 22 war exercise organized in the Baltic Sea last summer.

 

I have never heard of this. Vzglyad is an online newspaper in Russia. Per Wikipedia with sourcing for the claim:

"Since August 17, 2017, the publication has been under the control of the Expert Institute for Social Research, which is associated with the Russian Presidential Administration headed by Anton Vaino."

 

Anton Vaino is Putin's Chief of Staff. Vzglyad is an out and out propaganda mouthpiece. 

 

The reporting from Talouselama of the original Russian claims match almost exactly the narrative that Hersh presents. Here is the original article in Vzglyad from SEptember 28:

Диверсия против «Северного потока» указывает на американцев

VZ.RU

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Все больше свидетельств того, что оба газопровода «Северный поток» намеренно взорваны. Целый ряд косвенных признаков указывает на причастность к инциденту ВМС США. Каким именно образом могла быть устроена диверсия и почему была оставлена неповрежденной последняя нитка газопровода «Северный поток – 2»?

 

 

 

Further, this article is featured on Vzglyad today:

Американский журналист раскрыл заказчиков и исполнителей подрыва «Северных потоков»

VZ.RU

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Американские водолазы в ходе учений НАТО Baltops летом 2022 года установили под «Северные потоки» взрывчатку, которую спустя три месяца активировали норвежцы, утверждает американский журналист Сеймур Херш.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my view... Hersh's single anonymous source could be a mix of different people, with one being being affiliated with the propaganda outfit Vzglyad. They spread the initial narrative and have worked with Hersh to refine it and present it to a wider group of people in the English-speaking world. 

[CayceG]

I have deleted a point I used to disprove Hersh's claims regarding when a US Navy reconnaissance plane was in the vicinity of the first explosion. Due to some timezone snafus, some reporting got confused. 

 

A US P-8 Poseidon was indeed in the approximate location of the first explosion at the time it occurred. Hersh is not incorrect here, but it has been widely reported, since. And his suggestion that the P-8 dropped a buoy that triggered the explosions is still not proven by his story. 

 

Additionally, Ted Postol's contribution to the article is no more than a quote on how a remote detonation could potentially work. He is not supplying any information whatsoever about the top secret meetings or planning.
So while it's a sign of Hersh's brainworms to involve Postol due to his past track record, it isn't anywhere near the biggest issue I have with confirming the story or disproving it.

[Anathema-]

For the record I think this would be awesome. 

[CayceG]

Well well well...

 

 

archive.ph

ARCHIVE.PH

 

From the New York Times:

 

Quote

WASHINGTON — New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.

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U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. U.S. officials declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it, leaving open the possibility that the operation might have been conducted off the books by a proxy force with connections to the Ukrainian government or its security services.

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The explosives were most likely planted with the help of experienced divers who did not appear to be working for military or intelligence services, U.S. officials who have reviewed the new intelligence said. But it is possible that the perpetrators received specialized government training in the past.
 

 

ZEIT ONLINE | Lesen Sie zeit.de mit Werbung oder im PUR-Abo. Sie haben die Wahl.

WWW.ZEIT.DE

 

From ZEIT:

 

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The German investigative authorities have apparently made a breakthrough in solving the attack on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines. 

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Specifically, according to information from the ARD capital studio, the investigators are contrasts, SWR and ZEIT managed to identify the boat that was allegedly used for the secret operation. It is said to be a yacht rented from a company based in Poland, apparently owned by two Ukrainians. According to the investigation, the secret operation at sea was carried out by a team of six people. It is said to have been five men and one woman. Accordingly, the group consisted of a captain, two divers, two diving assistants and a doctor, who are said to have transported the explosives to the crime scenes and placed them there. The nationality of the perpetrators is apparently unclear. The assassins used professionally forged passports, which are said to have been used, among other things, to rent the boat.

...

According to research, investigators found traces of explosives on the table in the cabin [of the yacht]. According to information from the ARD capital studio, Kontraste, SWR and ZEIT, a Western secret service is said to have sent a tip to European partner services in the autumn, i.e. shortly after the destruction, according to which a Ukrainian commando was responsible for the destruction. After that, there are said to have been further intelligence indications that a pro-Ukrainian group could be responsible.

 

 

 

I find this to be a much more plausible explanation than what Hersh proposed. 

 

The identification of this group will be key, and I hope that the Europeans can identify them. But it being a group of people who used a yacht to do this is what I suspected the method was initially. 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

If this turns out to be true, then I'm rather impressed by the operation!

 

OLOLOLOLOLOLOLO @ referring to them as "the assassins" 

[Massdriver]

I didn’t think the US did it, but it was possible. This seems more likely.