Updated: all three of Ahmaud Arbery's murderers sentenced to life in prison, two without the possibility of parole

[Fizzzzle]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

Very deserved for the McMichaels

I didn't pay too close attention, how true was it that the other dude didn't even really know what was going on? I've seen some people say that

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

I didn't pay too close attention, how true was it that the other dude didn't even really know what was going on? I've seen some people say that

He for sure didn’t know because he never talked to any of the three people involved. He knew very basic information: there had been some minor crime in the neighborhood lately, and his neighbors were chasing a man on foot. He assumed the guy was needing to be caught for doing something, because why else would his neighbors be chasing him with guns drawn.

 

Bryant is a racist. He is a bad person. His racism likely played a role in his assumption that Arbery was doing something wrong. But it’s hard to say he has remotely the culpability for what happened because he made the incorrect assumption that his neighbors were acting reasonably in trying to detain Arbery.

 

The only thing Bryant did was follow Arbery and block him from running down one of the streets. At the time of the shooting, Bryant was a 100 feet away armed with nothing but his cellphone, the video from which the entire prosecution was based.

 

Bryant was held liable due to really questionable felony murder laws which say you are responsible for the death of a person if you were committing an associated felony at the time. So Bryant being guilty of the assault and unlawful detainment because he acknowledged that Arbery made contact with his truck when he tried to move in front to stop him means he is also guilty of the murder committed by Travis McMichael. 

I think we have to set aside the disgust we have with Bryant as a person, and he is certainly worthy of disgust, and ask is it reasonable to hold him accountable for the actions of another person when the two actions are some independent of one another? As I mentioned before, I can at least buy this in the theoretical scenario of charging the getaway driver with the crimes of his associates as the entire criminal episode is really one cohesive crime. That really isn’t the case here.

 

Felony murder is also disproportionately used against Black men to imprison whole groups of Black men for the crime of a single person. It’s time to retire such laws.

[Fizzzzle]

13 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

He for sure didn’t know because he never talked to any of the three people involved. He knew very basic information: there had been some minor crime in the neighborhood lately, and his neighbors were chasing a man on foot. He assumed the guy was needing to be caught for doing something, because why else would his neighbors be chasing him with guns drawn.

 

Bryant is a racist. He is a bad person. His racism likely played a role in his assumption that Arbery was doing something wrong. But it’s hard to say he has remotely the culpability for what happened because he made the incorrect assumption that his neighbors were acting reasonably in trying to detain Arbery.

 

The only thing Bryant did was follow Arbery and block him from running down one of the streets. At the time of the shooting, Bryant was a 100 feet away armed with nothing but his cellphone, the video from which the entire prosecution was based.

 

Bryant was held liable due to really questionable felony murder laws which say you are responsible for the death of a person if you were committing an associated felony at the time. So Bryant being guilty of the assault and unlawful detainment because he acknowledged that Arbery made contact with his truck when he tried to move in front to stop him means he is also guilty of the murder committed by Travis McMichael. 

I think we have to set aside the disgust we have with Bryant as a person, and he is certainly worthy of disgust, and ask is it reasonable to hold him accountable for the actions of another person when the two actions are some independent of one another? As I mentioned before, I can at least buy this in the theoretical scenario of charging the getaway driver with the crimes of his associates as the entire criminal episode is really one cohesive crime. That really isn’t the case here.

 

Felony murder is also disproportionately used against Black men to imprison whole groups of Black men for the crime of a single person. It’s time to retire such laws.

You are correct in all of that. I also believe "but a black man would have been charged with [blank] isn't an excuse.

 

That's curiously something you find a lot in felons. There's a lot of "they got 2 years when I got 7 for the same crime!" And like that anger is entirely justified. The solution isn't to hope others get the same injustice that you did, though.

 

It sounds like the dude is a turd, but he never set out to kill anyone that day. Being a racist turd isn't a felony offense

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

As far as examples of bad use of felony murder this is not one though it is generally bad

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

As far as examples of bad use of felony murder this is not one though it is generally bad

The guy didn’t and *couldn’t* have known the McMichaels were committing a crime when he attempted to aid them, and it is their crimes that become the causal factor for the felony he was convicted offense (the assault and false imprisonment) that is then the basis for the felony murder he was also convicted of.

 

It absolutely is an example of why Felony murder is rubbish, even if it isn’t the most egregious example.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

I’m not gonna give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn’t have know he was aiding racist murderers

[Guest]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I’m not gonna give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn’t have know he was aiding racist murderers

There isn’t any doubt, the state doesn’t even allege he knew! That’s entirely the point here. You don’t even have to have knowledge the other person is committing a crime!

 

This court case was interesting because it was to some degree more like what you find in appeals cases where everybody agreed on the facts of the case, at issue was the interpretation of a strange law. If the defense had convinced the jury that the citizens arrest statute applies, the case resolves in favor of the defendants with the same set of facts.

 

And the GA law here was sooooo bad, the GOP state legislature felt compelled to amend it. The jury certainly could have reasonably concluded the McMichaels met the standard based on the facts both sides stipulated to. Fortunately they did not!

[SaysWho?]

Shitty people going away forever.

[Air_Delivery]

I'm with sblfilms on this one. I'm extremely uncomfortable with convicting people of crimes they did didn't directly commit.

[Fizzzzle]

1 hour ago, Air_Delivery said:

I'm with sblfilms on this one. I'm extremely uncomfortable with convicting people of crimes they did didn't directly commit.

That leads to a larger discussion of things like RICO laws and stuff, though. The only reason the mafia ever got taken down was *because* laws were changed that allowed for the prosecution of crimes that someone didn't directly commit. So that's a slippery slope.

 

On this case, though, I feel a bit uncomfortable that the third dude got life in prison for unknowingly being party to murder. Prison time, sure, but life in prison, and he'll be like 80 before he's eligible for parole?

[Air_Delivery]

7 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

That leads to a larger discussion of things like RICO laws and stuff, though. The only reason the mafia ever got taken down was *because* laws were changed that allowed for the prosecution of crimes that someone didn't directly commit. So that's a slippery slope.

 

On this case, though, I feel a bit uncomfortable that the third dude got life in prison for unknowingly being party to murder. Prison time, sure, but life in prison, and he'll be like 80 before he's eligible for parole?

I don't know if there are different degrees of "felony murder", but the 3rd guy should have got equivalent of reckless homicide. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Yeah, Bryan may be a shitty racist, but 30 years before parole seems overly harsh, given his minor part in the crime.

 

The McMichaels can rot forever, though.

[Fizzzzle]

3 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

I don't know if there are different degrees of "felony murder", but the 3rd guy should have got equivalent of reckless homicide. 

Agreed. I feel like there should have been some version of reckless homicide, negligent manslaughter or some other equivalent that at least most states have.

[Anathema-]

So this third guy was totally remorseful and did everything he could to prove he wasn't involved and didn't support the other two right? And aided in their convictions?

 

Or did he join in the chase gleefully, happily record everything, then continue to insist nobody did anything wrong and hid this video evidence until the point he stupidly thought it would exonerate everyone? 

 

I mean -- be uncomfortable with felony murder, okay, but this trial isn't where you make your case. If he wasn't involved in the murder he had every opportunity and the evidence needed to prove it. Instead he tied his boat to theirs. They all sank. 

[Air_Delivery]

27 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

So this third guy was totally remorseful and did everything he could to prove he wasn't involved and didn't support the other two right? And aided in their convictions?

 

Or did he join in the chase gleefully, happily record everything, then continue to insist nobody did anything wrong and hid this video evidence until the point he stupidly thought it would exonerate everyone? 

 

I mean -- be uncomfortable with felony murder, okay, but this trial isn't where you make your case. If he wasn't involved in the murder he had every opportunity and the evidence needed to prove it. Instead he tied his boat to theirs. They all sank. 

His intent was to help capture the guy. I don't think killing him really crossed his mind. His information was incomplete and was acting on what was told to him.

 

Now obviously this was stupid and dangerous and he should have just called the cops. But he was convicted with intending to kill this guy and I don't agree with that at all. 

[Anathema-]

Felony murder isn't charging with intent. 

 

Even then we can infer intent by his actions after. He had a video of a murder. If he wasn't involved he had every opportunity to help bring justice, but he didn't. He didn't even think anybody did anything wrong. 

 

He could have extricated himself. He didn't. He wasn't convicted of murder with intent, he was convicted of creating and maintaining a situation whose lawlessness was foreseeable and that resulted in a 1st degree murder.

 

It's fair to disagree whether a sentence nearly equivalent to the worst crime in an act applies to all actors in a crime. But let's not kid ourselves; he could have been a witness, he chose to be a defendant. 

[Fizzzzle]

2 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

 

 

It's fair to disagree whether a sentence nearly equivalent to the worst crime in an act applies to all actors in a crime. But let's not kid ourselves; he could have been a witness, he chose to be a defendant. 

You are correct here. That's why I think something like negligent homicide or reckless whatever that resulted in the criminal death of another human being, which all states have laws for to some degree or another, would be more fitting.

 

Again, being a racist fuckstick is not a crime. When he aided the McMichaels in murdering Ahmaud Arbery, he didn't know he was doing it, at least in terms of it being an essential lynch mob.

 

You can absolutely argue that he should have just fucking stayed out of it and called the cops, which is why I think prison time is justified, but he was not an instigator. He did not enter the situation with the intent to kill someone, whereas the McMichaels were totally ready to shoot the dude.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Anathema- said:

So this third guy was totally remorseful and did everything he could to prove he wasn't involved and didn't support the other two right? And aided in their convictions?

 

Or did he join in the chase gleefully, happily record everything, then continue to insist nobody did anything wrong and hid this video evidence until the point he stupidly thought it would exonerate everyone? 

 

I mean -- be uncomfortable with felony murder, okay, but this trial isn't where you make your case. If he wasn't involved in the murder he had every opportunity and the evidence needed to prove it. Instead he tied his boat to theirs. They all sank. 

He turned the video over to police minutes after the shooting. He was cooperating with the authorities the entire time. In the early days of the prosecution, before it got kicked multiple times, he was going to be a witness for the prosecution. His defense at trial was explicitly that the McMichaels did something wrong but he didn’t.

I don’t think you followed this case very closely.

 

5 hours ago, Anathema- said:

He wasn't convicted of murder with intent, he was convicted of creating and maintaining a situation whose lawlessness was foreseeable and that resulted in a 1st degree murder.

He was convicted of assault and attempted false imprisonment for driving his truck in front of Arbery. Because those things are felonies and a person ended up dying during the episode, he was also charged with felony murder.

[Guest]

McMichaels reach plea deal in hate crimes case; Arbery’s parents opposed

WWW.AJC.COM

---

The father and son convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery have reached a plea agreement with prosecutors in their federal hate crimes case, court records show.

 

 

Reading some different takes here and there and it sounds like the reason they are taking the plea deal is that they will get to go to a medium security federal prison for the first 3 years of their sentence instead of a GA state prison, which is a much worse place to be.

[Guest]

Judge rejected the sweetheart pick-your-prison deal the DOJ signed with the McMichaels, siding with the wishes of Arbery’s family that they serve their time in a state prison.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

22 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Judge rejected the sweetheart pick-your-prison deal the FOJ signed with the McMichaels, siding with the wishes of Arbery’s family that they serve their time in a state prison.

 

In rare move, U.S. judge rejects plea agreement by Ahmaud Arbery's murderer

WWW.REUTERS.COM

---

The decision came after Travis McMichael, who was due to face trial next week on federal hate-crime charges, admitted for the first time he had pursued the 25-year-old Black man because of...