crispy4000 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Deserves its own thread given the breadth of the comparisons here and the implications for next-gen consoles. Full article:https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-image-reconstruction-death-stranding-face-off (quote about future of reconstruction techniques across platforms) Quote There's an important point of differentiation between Nvidia's hardware and AMD's, however. The green team is deeply invested in AI acceleration across its entire business and it's investing significantly in die-space on the processor for dedicated AI tasks. AMD has not shared its plans for machine learning support with RDNA 2, and there is some confusion about its implementation in the next-gen consoles. Microsoft has confirmed support for accelerated INT4/INT8 processing for Xbox Series X (for the record, DLSS uses INT8) but Sony has not confirmed ML support for PlayStation 5 nor a clutch of other RDNA 2 features that are present for the next generation Xbox and in PC via DirectX 12 Ultimate support on upcoming AMD products. Broadly speaking then, the Xbox Series X GPU has around 50 per cent of the RTX 2060's machine learning processing power. A notional DLSS port would see AI upscaling take 5ms to complete, rather than a 2060's circa 2.5ms. That's heavy, but still nowhere near as expensive as generating a full 4K image - and that's assuming that Microsoft isn't working on its own machine learning upscaling solution better suited to console development (spoilers: it is - or at least it was a few years back). In the meantime though, DLSS is the most exciting tech of its type - we're sure to see the technology evolve and for Nvidia to leverage a key hardware/software advantage. The only barrier I can see is its status as a proprietary technology requiring bespoke integration. DLSS only works as long as developers add it to their games, after all. As exciting as the prospects for machine learning upscaling are, I also expect to see continued development of existing non-ML reconstruction techniques for the next-gen machines - Insomniac's temporal injection technique (as seen in Ratchet and Clank and Marvel's Spider-Man) is tremendous and I'm fascinated to see how this could evolve given access to the PS5's additional horsepower. Maybe the developer is leaning into this to achieve its 60fps mode for Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales? Even with the arrival of Xbox One X and its 'true 4K' marketing - and even the focus on native 4K at the PS5 games reveal - the truth is that the concepts of dynamic resolution scaling, temporal supersampling and perhaps even checkerboarding may well persist into the next generation. Despite the move to next-gen hardware, GPU resources will still be finite - and it's likely that ultra HD will still be more of a 'destination' and the route taken to get there will vary very much on a game by game basis. Also an earlier video on Detroit on checkerboarding: DF found that PS4 Pro checkboarding sufficiently created a facsimile of 1800p from a 1527p base. Not as crazy as DLSS 2.0, but nothing to scoff at either. More games should be using reconstruction techniques than there are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Will watch tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 It’s amazing to me that AMD doesn’t have a true DLSS equivalent available yet. Going AMD over nVidia for PC gaming makes no sense atm unless you have a bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 22 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: It’s amazing to me that AMD doesn’t have a true DLSS equivalent available yet. Going AMD over nVidia for PC gaming makes no sense atm unless you have a bias. idk i’m pretty sure amd can easily match dlss2.0 with their hardware on xbox series x let me just ask tomcat brb edit: heard back from tomcat and dlss is actually rounded down to dlss 1.0 so xsx can easily match it considering it is the fourth xbox which would round up to 5x the performance of dlss on pc 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy4000 Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 minute ago, stepee said: idk i’m pretty sure amd can easily match dlss2.0 with their hardware on xbox series x let me just ask tomcat brb Here you go... On 2/25/2020 at 8:21 PM, TomCat said: Dont know why yall so full of doubt. AMD has said that thier RDNA2 GPU is going to be DISRUPTIVE to the 4k market. the gpu in the X is based on this tech. MS helped AMD dev their tech. It will perform better then raytracing on the 2080. People didnt believe AMD would do what they are doing to intel at the current moment. They are about to do the same thing to nvidia. If they can get their drivers in order they will be golden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said: Here you go... I was close! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 32 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: It’s amazing to me that AMD doesn’t have a true DLSS equivalent available yet. It's that first part of the quoted article that is the key. nVidia has been pushing AI for years in both software and hardware for a variety of applications. It's also worth remembering that DLSS itself only launched in February 2019, didn't even become worthwhile until August, and didn't work generically until April of this year. So it's not like this is some long established process that AMD has failed to imitate. This is a case of nVidia leveraging their years of hardware and software investments into a compelling feature that has yet to really see widespread adoption. I think their success with DLSS wasn't obvious, and will be difficult for others replicate at nVidia's level for quite some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 43 minutes ago, TwinIon said: It's that first part of the quoted article that is the key. nVidia has been pushing AI for years in both software and hardware for a variety of applications. It's also worth remembering that DLSS itself only launched in February 2019, didn't even become worthwhile until August, and didn't work generically until April of this year. So it's not like this is some long established process that AMD has failed to imitate. This is a case of nVidia leveraging their years of hardware and software investments into a compelling feature that has yet to really see widespread adoption. I think their success with DLSS wasn't obvious, and will be difficult for others replicate at nVidia's level for quite some time. I highlighted and enlarged that because it's very incorrect. It's gotten better but was always "worthwhile" from day one in games that supported it. Also, some games had it in 2018 (FF15) and it was a known feature of the RTX cards from their launch. AMD shouldn't have needed to seen what it was to have a response for making 4k gaming a true reality, unless of course they always want to be a second tier brand and not ever innovate. I miss ATi every damn day. Literally every game should have DLSS support at this point - or, nVidia should find a way to just enable it via their control panel for all games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 DLSS is important enough that it should be considered a knock against any pc release that doesn’t have it after this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, stepee said: DLSS is important enough that it should be considered a knock against any pc release that doesn’t have it after this year. Techniques like DLSS are, in my mind, the only way forward to 8K and 12K resolutions without having to sell human babies to pay for the hardware. I know a lot of folks don't think resolutions above 4K even make sense, but they will some day and this is likely the way. High resolutions will also be needed to advance VR as being that close to the screen is brutal on visual quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said: Techniques like DLSS are, in my mind, the only way forward to 8K and 12K resolutions without having to sell human babies to pay for the hardware. I know a lot of folks don't think resolutions above 4K even make sense, but they will some day and this is likely the way. High resolutions will also be needed to advance VR as being that close to the screen is brutal on visual quality. Yep, only way we hit that 16k sweet-spot for vr! Honestly, DLSS 2.0, if it really isn’t that hard to implement to the level of Control/DS, has rendered native internal res obsolete (on pc anyway, until console catches up), it simply no longer makes sense to render without starting from a lower res and running DLSS to output to 4k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomCat Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 On 7/28/2020 at 1:51 PM, Mr.Vic20 said: Techniques like DLSS are, in my mind, the only way forward to 8K and 12K resolutions without having to sell human babies to pay for the hardware. I know a lot of folks don't think resolutions above 4K even make sense, but they will some day and this is likely the way. High resolutions will also be needed to advance VR as being that close to the screen is brutal on visual quality. Boom MS has their own version of DLSS that they will be using ML to increase its performance. This is how I expect them to hit 8k on some titles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 12 minutes ago, TomCat said: Boom MS has their own version of DLSS that they will be using ML to increase its performance. This is how I expect them to hit 8k on some titles omg thank you I love this 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, TomCat said: Boom MS has their own version of DLSS that they will be using ML to increase its performance. This is how I expect them to hit 8k on some titles In principle this is possible, as you do not technically need custom GPU cores (like Nvidia's tensor cores) to use DirectML, in actually application, based on the XSX specs, not so sure that's going to go so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy4000 Posted August 29, 2020 Author Share Posted August 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr.Vic20 said: In principle this is possible, as you do not technically need custom GPU cores (like Nvidia's tensor cores) to use DirectML, in actually application, based on the XSX specs, not so sure that's going to go so well. From what we've seen on PC, DirectML isn't an upscaler so much as a smarter sharpening filter (EDIT: See correction in lower post). But Microsoft is claiming an actual resolution ML upscaler now, so we'll see what develops. Checkerboarding could always be used as an alternative regardless to resolve detail. Maybe we'll see some combination of both that and Direct ML. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said: From what we've seen on PC, DirectML isn't an upscaler so much as a smarter sharpening filter. But Microsoft is claiming resolution an actual ML upscaler now, so we'll see what develops. Checkerboarding could always be used as an alternative regardless to resolve detail. Maybe we'll see some combination of both that and Direct ML. Oh really, I thought i read somewhere that they said you can use it as a reconstruction method, a la, DLSS. I'll see if I can find the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomCat Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr.Vic20 said: Oh really, I thought i read somewhere that they said you can use it as a reconstruction method, a la, DLSS. I'll see if I can find the paper. thats what I read also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 I think this discussion is where I got the idea this is at least technically possible: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/amds-radeon-vii-supports-directml-an-alternative-to-dlss.18843372/ That said, Put me down for a vote of "not likely". I'm sure some solution is possible, but likely on select titles and farther down the road, possible after the mid gen hardware refresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomCat Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 https://lordsofgaming.net/2020/06/xbox-series-x-directml-a-next-generation-game-changer/ ML will be the reason Lockhart wont be left behind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy4000 Posted August 29, 2020 Author Share Posted August 29, 2020 45 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said: I think this discussion is where I got the idea this is at least technically possible: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/amds-radeon-vii-supports-directml-an-alternative-to-dlss.18843372/ That said, Put me down for a vote of "not likely". I'm sure some solution is possible, but likely on select titles and farther down the road, possible after the mid gen hardware refresh. I think I might have gotten confused with AMD's Contrast Adaptive Sharpening (FidelityFX). That's the one that's not really an upscaler. Remember that we've heard about MS experimenting with upscaling in Forza. But I don't think we've actually seen it in action yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said: I think I might have gotten confused with AMD's Contrast Adaptive Sharpening (FidelityFX). That's the one that's not really an upscaler. Remember that we've heard about MS experimenting with upscaling in Forza. But I don't think we've actually seen it yet? Yeah, there is hype, but no substance yet. Hell, we don't even have price points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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