Fizzzzle

There's some nuance to that. Lincoln personally was always an abolitionist, even if he didn't say it publicly. He was a politician, he lied a lot. That's what they do. In the beginning of the war, most American soldiers (I use the term 'american' or 'federal' to describe them, because the confederacy were traitors, saying 'union' implies that there are two equal sides) didn't give two shits about slaves. Especially once conscription became a problem. However, as the war progressed, it changed. I think it had to do with Sherman's march on the south. Wherever the army went, these men, most of whom might have never met a black person in their life, were confronted first hand with the reality of slavery. The army was followed by a column of escaped slaves. Eventually, slavery did become an important issue in the north. Basically, think of American soldiers liberating concentration camps in WWII. There's the Band of Brothers episode titled "why we fight." A similar thing happened in the civil war, though not to the same degree.

There is a large portion of the American voting block that have been gaslit into voting against their own interests since the country was founded by playing off of their fears, racism, and insecurities. Every time a progressive movement starts in this country, you can see it break through to these people. We saw it in the progressive movement of the early 20th century. We saw it with Bernie in the Midwest. The problem is that the "progressive" party at the time keeps shunning it as being too radical, which leads to religious radicals winning their vote based on "yeah we know we burned your house down, but imagine how gay and mexican it would be if the other party was in charge." Until we correct that behavior from the ground up, we're still going to keep getting nixons, Reagans, and Trumps. You're not going to convince anyone by coming at them with "hey you fucking racist backwards idiot piece of shit, let me tell you about my economic policy."

I mean, that would be the general point.

Sure.

They also started teaching children that nazis = bad after the war. We have 160 years of romantic southern revivalism to undo, so it's not as simple. I feel like I'm talking in circles at this point. Taking down the statues might make you feel good, but it doesn't do anything to help the problem, and if anything (I think) makes it worse. Education is key. Teach the children that the south absolutely fought to protect the institution of slavery, that the generals of those statues were traitors, and their great grandparents were probably horrifically racist. If you just say "ha, fuck you, imma take your statues," all you're doing is reinforcing the beliefs they already have. Remember, Eugene Debs was popular in the south and the midwest. You can reach these people.

No, I'm saying we should turn the statues into the slavery version of holocaust memorials. if you just tear them down, all that does is give more ammunition to the beliefs of the people who want them there that they're being oppressed and their beliefs are justified. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. These people see themselves as victims of a perceived oppressive deep state or whatever. You have to build movements from the ground up, you can't just call everyone who opposes you racist idiots and expect them to go along with your point of view. Nothing will change.

That literally is what it's doing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be apologist. There's just a massive difference in the way we responded to the civil war vs. how Germany responded to WWII. Almost immediately after WWII, Germans were taught Nazis = bad. We did not do that. Confederates were romanticized and glorified, and not just in the south. Feeding the white victim complex just gets us more Trump/Reagan. We need a new tactic. We need a way to get these people to change their thinking, not just keep calling them racists. It doesn't get us anywhere.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, I would recommend reading the Federalist Papers. James Madison was an absolute beast at passive aggressive persuasion. He would use double negatives, even triple negatives, to make his points. There were times he got aggressive, but most of the time his arguments would read like: "wouldn't it be, like, not better, but maybe better if we, you know, maybe did this constitution thing? I mean, here's some reasons, but y'know, I just maybe think it might be not better to continue on the path. I mean, it might maybe not suit us." The Federalist Papers are a master class in debating, and they worked. When you come at someone like "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING RACIST CUNT!" they tend to not respond very well, and you don't help anything.

minnesotafatz was one, right?

So, okay, there's a lot to unpack here. #1. Most students are taught, even in liberal states, the Lost Cause myth. This is the myth that the Civil War was fought, ironically, for the freedom to secede and... be free, except for black people. Most students are taught that from like 3rd grade. That is a deeply ingrained belief that can't just be wiped away by taking away a monument. It needs to be gradually extracted from the education system, which is hard when half of it is run by racists. #2. By just eradicating the monuments, all you're doing is feeding into the paranoid ideas that poor white people are being oppressed. It's stupid, but it makes sense. Republicans run on fear. THEY'RE COMING FOR YOU. THEY'RE COMING FOR YOUR JOBS. THEY'RE COMING FOR YOUR DAUGHTERS. THEY WANT TO RAPE YOUR CAT. Who "they" are changes, but at least one party has ran on that platform for almost the entirety of the country's history. Getting poor white people to vote against their own interests is an american pastime. I say it's time we change that. Leave the confederate monuments up, but put text up that shows exactly the evils these people perpetrated. Let the people know that their supposed idols did nothing but fight for the wealthy and didn't give a shit about them. #3. Well... I didn't think this part through. I guess it's a combination of the first 2. Eradicating confederate monuments feeds into the victim complex that has been infiltrating poor white communities since the 60's. It's important to remember that these people vote, and they vote at far greater rates than the rest of us. The more we antagonize them, the more they radicalize. I feel like this is the only community I... communicate with that I feel like I'm the voice of temperament. You can't persuade anyone by calling them an idiot. You can't persuade anyone by calling them a racist. Maybe they are a racist, maybe they are an idiot, but they still vote, and that's how we got President Trump.

I'll have a more cohesive response when I'm not on my phone, but basically I think that the problem of glorification of the south only gets worse if you TaKe dOwN oUr stATues. It only furthers the victim complex that has been developing in poor white communities for the last few decades. They think they're being censored and offered oppressed (ironically). Don't feed that beast

"you're eradicating our history! Glory to the south!" Nope, I'm not gonna tear your statues down, I'm gonna put testimonies and pictures of slaves all over it, so you can see.

My only point is that we should educate rather than eradicate. If every statue of Robert E Lee was accompanied by like "here's why the south was bad and you should feel bad for sympathising with them." Then maybe kids could get educated. As it is, people get sucked into the Lost Cause myth, and I think eradicating monuments just adds fuel to the racist fire.

The difference is that the German education system ensures that everyone knows the evils of the nazis. The US education system does not do that with slavers. People are legitimately taught that the south was fighting for freedom, which is immensely ironic. Basically, my point is that it's easier to turn confederate monuments into holocaust memorials. It would do greater good than just demolishing them.

Correct. Most confederate monuments in the US were sponsored by the Daughters of the United Confederacy. Or maybe it's United daughters of the confederacy, I can't remember. They had these monuments erected some 40-60 years after the civil war, and also were the main perpetrators of the lost cause myth, which became so prevalent that even I was taught it in school 20 years ago. So have something that says "here's this monument, here's why it sucks." Point being, erasing history doesn't help anyone. Point out why the past sucked, and your grandpa was probably a racist, actually does some good. There's a reason Auschwitz still stands.

I'm generally in favor of moving monuments to museums, but that is not always possible. Short of that, I think there should be a plaque next to every confederate monument explaining the evils of slavery and what these men fought for (hint: slavery). There's a difference between remembering history and celebrating it.

@TheLeon has been hiding it for years. I'm into him. I mean on to him.

I've had my eye on this one https://www.amazon.com/RESPAWN-900-Racing-Gaming-Recliner-Reclining/dp/B07RFNH2TX/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=fully+reclining+office+chair&qid=1605372905&sr=8-12 I wonder if the head pillow thing might be annoying, though (I'm short)

Have there been actual pedos posting here?

Ha! MAN did you pick the wrong time to have a newborn.

True dad right there. Do like my dad did and just say all the names, at least one will be right and the cat won't give a shit.

I'll find it kind of funny the last couple days before lockdown at the restaurant (assuming we close outright and don't do takeout). The reason the governor delayed lockdown until wed. was so restaurants could burn through their inventory. "Can I get a salad?" "Nope." "Can I get a chicken sandwich?" "Nah, but popeyes has some." "What CAN I get?" "You can get the fuck out of here so I can go home and not get covid from your bitch ass "

Congrats. Is this kid #2 or #3? Do you call them by their numbers now?

I mean, he's a fucking football coach. They elected a football coach to congress. Like, it shouldn't be shocking, but somehow it still is.

You need like at least 4 people for it to be fun, anyway.