Nintendo Smash Ultimate has the worst input lag in the series, nearly doubling N64/Melee

[crispy4000]

N64 / Melee: 3.5 frames average

 

Brawl: 5+ frames average


Smash 4 (Wii U): 4.5+ frames average

 

Smash Ultimate: 6 frames average


Won't lie, I suspected this from the first time playing, and its long been the main thing keeping me from getting into the game.  It's always felt ... late.  Brawl still feels worse IMO because of the bad ways it treated inputs on receiving them.  But this is still unfortunate, especially considering how much Ultimate's design would benefit from added responsiveness.

Might be a casualty of Nintendo and Namco designing around their (bad) netcode.  Wish it could be patched, even to get it to Wii U levels.

[crispy4000]

6+ frames of input lag also puts it behind pretty much every fighting game this gen, save for what Tekken 7 was on PS4 at its botched launch.


http://shoryuken.com/2018/10/19/soulcalibur-vi-input-lag-tested-and-its-comparable-to-street-fighter-v/

[Paperclyp]

I don’t notice it, but I’m sure for higher level players it’s annoying. 

[crispy4000]

3 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

I don’t notice it, but I’m sure for higher level players it’s annoying. 

 

I don't see it as a super high level player thing exclusively.  I think it's more about time spent.  If you're used to how responsive N64, Melee, or even Smash 4 are, Ultimate feels slow on the draw.

[Xbob42]

I noticed it immediately and was amazed so few others did. At the time, I figured it was because of how bad Nintendo's servers were.

 

On 12/9/2018 at 11:52 PM, Xbob42 said:

I have had a match or two with randos that has had a few hiccups that run that bad, but never entire matches. There is a consistent input delay of what feels like a million years but I imagine is actually closer to maybe 150-200ms. I have been able to adjust to it for the most part, but a true wired connection would probably provide a much, much smoother experience. The guy talks about him being on a hardwired connection, but I'm pretty sure to do that with the Switch you need to use a USB thing which actually makes things worse, don't you? I recall that because of how it communicates or something like that, you end up at best maybe slightly better with optimal conditions, although it's been a while so I could be wrong or misremembering.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Sakurai has always stated he isn't making a fighting game, he is making a "four-player battle royal action game".  In interviews, he has said focus has always been on making an entertaining game that groups of people (especially new players) can have fun with, rather than trying to compete with Street Fighter 2 or Tekken.  Given that context, I can understand why he wouldn't focus on reducing latency (and most of us shouldn't care).

[crispy4000]

59 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I noticed it immediately and was amazed so few others did. At the time, I figured it was because of how bad Nintendo's servers were.

Glad I wasn't the only one here.  You estimated a little high though

  

58 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Sakurai has always stated he isn't making a fighting game, he is making a "four-player battle royal action game".  In interviews, he has said focus has always been on making an entertaining game that groups of people (especially new players) can have fun with, rather than trying to compete with Street Fighter 2 or Tekken.  Given that context, I can understand why he wouldn't focus on reducing latency (and most of us shouldn't care).

 

This sounds like handwaving.  If a game is designed around twitch responses (which arguably, Smash is) and runs at 60fps, anything 100ms or higher is going to feel on the draggy side.  No amount of 'yeah but that's not the point!' changes that.

Not to mention Sakurai put parries (perfect shielding) into the game, and the frame window to do it is less than the input lag.

More food for thought: Shadow of the Tomb Raider on Stadia has ~7 frames of input lag.  Is there something that makes that not okay for that game, but 6 frames perfectly good for Smash?  One would think the twitchy multiplayer fighting game should be much more responsive...
 

[Xbob42]

5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Glad I wasn't the only one here.  You estimated a little high though

I did, but I figure at least part of that is Nintendo's servers actually being shitty. I remember I'd try to run back and forth and get Link's sprinting sword swing to hit anyone and I would miss so consistently that I actually stopped playing. I got used to the input lag for the most part but when it came time for precision I could never dial it in, which killed a LOT of the fun for me.

[crispy4000]

11 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I did, but I figure at least part of that is Nintendo's servers actually being shitty. I remember I'd try to run back and forth and get Link's sprinting sword swing to hit anyone and I would miss so consistently that I actually stopped playing. I got used to the input lag for the most part but when it came time for precision I could never dial it in, which killed a LOT of the fun for me.

 

On second thought, that's probably right too.  Delay from the netcode could in some cases make it worse than the default 6 frames.  Probably most cases, lol.

[Paperclyp]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

 

I don't see it as a super high level player thing exclusively.  I think it's more about time spent.  If you're used to how responsive N64, Melee, or even Smash 4 are, Ultimate feels slow on the draw.

I spent countless hours with 64 and Melee. 

[crispy4000]

7 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

I spent countless hours with 64 and Melee. 

 

I guess that's a good thing for you if you can't notice.  2-3 extra frames of input lag doesn't bother you.

It's not as big of a gulf as RDR2 compared to everything else, I suppose.  Some people didn't seem to feel that either.

[Paperclyp]

2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

I guess that's a good thing for you if you can't notice.  2-3 extra frames of lag doesn't bother you.

It's not as big of a gulf as RDR2 compared to everything else, I suppose.  Some people didn't seem to feel that either.

I’m sure side to side I would notice, but playing each game separately it’s just not something I pick up on. 

 

I should play some more ultimate. 

[Xbob42]

I've never really understood how people can press a button and not notice that it takes a lot longer than other games for anything to actually happen, and I wonder how people can even time attacks/jumps like that, especially when combined with online play where it can be exacerbated but also exacerbated randomly, so it might be X responsive one second, and Y responsive the next, which is why I hate server-side input confirmation or whatever it's called instead of just having it be client-side and corrected for on the server after, which still kind of sucks but at least your controls are always 100% as responsive as they should be. But it's clear that it simply doesn't bother some people. I can't stand it though, it feels broken and unfinished when things like that happen. It made Red Dead 2 absolutely miserable for me.

[Keyser_Soze]

2 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I've never really understood how people can press a button and not notice that it takes a lot longer than other games for anything to actually happen

 

Probably button mashers who don't know what they are doing, paying attention to the miracle of what's happening on screen.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

Glad I wasn't the only one here.  You estimated a little high though

  

 

This sounds like handwaving.  If a game is designed around twitch responses (which arguably, Smash is) and runs at 60fps, anything 100ms or higher is going to feel on the draggy side.  No amount of 'yeah but that's not the point!' changes that.

Not to mention Sakurai put parries (perfect shielding) into the game, and the frame window to do it is less than the input lag.

More food for thought: Shadow of the Tomb Raider on Stadia has ~7 frames of input lag.  Is there something that makes that not okay for that game, but 6 frames perfectly good for Smash?  One would think the twitchy multiplayer fighting game should be much more responsive...
 

The lag I've seen for SotTR on Stadia were ~213 ms at 1080p and 279 ms at 4k -- much higher than what is listed above for Brawl.

 

I'm not say "it's good" -- but comparing it to games that are designed to be competitive fighting games isn't fair to Sakurai.  While some people want to play it in a highly competitive eSports manner, everything I have read suggests HE doesn't view his game that way.

[Biggie]

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

I've never really understood how people can press a button and not notice that it takes a lot longer than other games for anything to actually happen, and I wonder how people can even time attacks/jumps like that, especially when combined with online play where it can be exacerbated but also exacerbated randomly, so it might be X responsive one second, and Y responsive the next, which is why I hate server-side input confirmation or whatever it's called instead of just having it be client-side and corrected for on the server after, which still kind of sucks but at least your controls are always 100% as responsive as they should be. But it's clear that it simply doesn't bother some people. I can't stand it though, it feels broken and unfinished when things like that happen. It made Red Dead 2 absolutely miserable for me.

 

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Probably button mashers who don't know what they are doing, paying attention to the miracle of what's happening on screen.

We don’t suck at video games maybe? 

[crispy4000]

10 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

The lag I've seen for SotTR on Stadia were ~213 ms at 1080p and 279 ms at 4k -- much higher than what is listed above for Brawl.

 

I'm not say "it's good" -- but comparing it to games that are designed to be competitive fighting games isn't fair to Sakurai.  While some people want to play it in a highly competitive eSports manner, everything I have read suggests HE doesn't view his game that way.

 

Reports I’ve seen have said 125ms average at 1080p when played in browser.  The higher numbers are from a Chromecast / TV app.  Leave it to Google to fuck that up.

 

What you’re saying is not a legitimate excuse.  Ultimate quite evidently plays like a twitch/reflex game, as several aspects of its design point to (parry’s included), and really should have twitch-grade responsiveness in turn. What Sakurai thinks of it relative to other fighters, or action multiplayer titles generally, is besides the point.  The added delay doesn't fit the actual game's design or direction.  And it doesn't need to be a 'sport' just to benefit from the responsiveness that should be there, just like 90's arcade games didn't.

 

You’re too stuck on the compeditive classification and Sakurai's words IMO.  Even his statements contradict the game: he’s said he wanted Ultimate to play faster than 4, so what’s the reason then for the added delay?  Why is there worse input delay than in Brawl, the game he wanted to be slow???

 

[Xbob42]

3 minutes ago, Biggie said:

 

We don’t suck at video games maybe? 

I think it might be the opposite, but I was trying to be nice.

[Biggie]

21 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I think it might be the opposite, but I was trying to be nice.

How so? We are good at games that have shitty frame rates and severe input lag.

[Paperclyp]

4 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

I've never really understood how people can press a button and not notice that it takes a lot longer than other games for anything to actually happen, and I wonder how people can even time attacks/jumps like that, especially when combined with online play where it can be exacerbated but also exacerbated randomly, so it might be X responsive one second, and Y responsive the next, which is why I hate server-side input confirmation or whatever it's called instead of just having it be client-side and corrected for on the server after, which still kind of sucks but at least your controls are always 100% as responsive as they should be. But it's clear that it simply doesn't bother some people. I can't stand it though, it feels broken and unfinished when things like that happen. It made Red Dead 2 absolutely miserable for me.

I can notice inconsistent delays online, sure. 

 

But with the general button lag we’re discussing, it’s not precisely that I don’t notice I guess, but I adjust to it pretty quickly so that it essentially becomes unnoticeable. In a game like smash, where, as long as you’re not online it’s consistent and not (to me) absurd, I just don’t care. 

 

Red Dead’s was annoying and worked against it. 

 

It’s case by case I guess. Just like stuff with frame rate, there is going to be a spectrum of what people are willing to put up with. You guys clearly have a higher sensitivity to it.