The Newer Dumbass Thread

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Exactly - I have no idea if it exists or not because it's all subjective.  But I err on the side of there being no singular objective truth because of that subjectivity.

Again, "it's all subjective" is an objective claim about the nature of reality. There is no getting out of this. It either is all subjective or it's not and you're purporting to know that answer. If you want to stand in uncertainty, feel free, but these claims you're making aren't uncertainty. They're extremely speculative and unjustifiably universal claims about the nature of experience and ontology.

[Boyle5150]

Truth claim #1: Truth is all subjective. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

Again, "it's all subjective" is an objective claim about the nature of reality. 

It's a subjective claim about the nature of reality because it's coming from an agent whose entire perception of reality is inherently subjective.

[Rev]

13 hours ago, legend said:

One of the reasons robotics is so challenging is because thus far we've only been able to develop AI that has extremely limited means to develop effective concepts and models of the world. The cost of that limitation is current robots utterly fail to be even remotely as capable as humans. Their life is a sad one filled with constant disappointment in reality not turning out as expected and working the field is a constant reminder of the stark difference between beliefs and the actualities of the universe.

 

No, they're not the same.

Yeah the claim that objective reality doesn't exist runs into a ton of problems like this, but it sure is popular with those new to philosophy.

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

It's a subjective claim about the nature of reality because it's coming from an agent whose entire perception of reality is inherently subjective.

You're not merely making claims about your subjectivity. You're making a universal claim that nothing else exists outside of that subjectivity. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 minutes ago, Rev said:

You're not merely making claims about your subjectivity. You're making a universal claim that nothing else exists outside of that subjectivity. 

Of course, because that inherent subjectivity shapes and defines that external reality.  Therefore, when I cease to exist, that external reality as my subjectivity -- the only means I have of experiencing that reality -- perceives it also ceases to exist.

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Of course, because that inherent subjectivity shapes and defines that external reality.

Another claim about the nature of objective (or external, in your words) reality. You make a lot of these and each one is incoherent with your unbelievably speculative claim that truth doesn't exist.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

Another claim about the nature of objective (or external, in your words) reality. You make a lot of these and each one is incoherent with your unbelievably speculative claim that truth doesn't exist.

They are only "incoherent" if one believes in any form of objective/external reality which is synonymous with "truth".  If one denies the existence of such, then there is no issue at all.

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

They are only "incoherent" if one believes in any form of objective/external reality which is synonymous with "truth".  If one denies the existence of such, then there is no issue at all.

Even "truth doesn't exist" is a claim that's either true or untrue. And if objective reality exists at all, then there is in principle a conceivable description that corresponds with that reality, which fits correspondent models of "truth."

[Boyle5150]

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

 If one denies the existence of such, then there is no issue at all.

I don’t think you know how this works.  

 

Fact claim #2: The denial of objective truth leads to no issues in the understanding of subjective truths.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Rev said:

And if objective reality exists at all, then there is in principle a conceivable description that corresponds with that reality, which fits correspondent models of "truth."

Sooooo...if there is no such thing as an objectivity reality, then there is no "truth"?

[Boyle5150]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Sooooo...if there is no such thing as an objectivity reality, then there is no "truth"?

Circular logic 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Boyle5150 said:

I don’t think you know how this works.  

 

Fact claim #2: The denial of objective truth leads to no issues in the understanding of subjective truths.  

I'm not seeing a problem here as I'm stating subjective facts, not non-existent objective ones.

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Sooooo...if there is no such thing as an objectivity reality, then there is no "truth"?

You're conflating ontology with epistemology and confusing the shit out of yourself.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Boyle5150 said:

Circular logic 

So what?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Rev said:

You're conflating ontology with epistemology and confusing the shit out of yourself.

Why would I be confusing myself with my own subjective position?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

By the way, this is the most fun I've had in ages!

[Boyle5150]

1 minute ago, SFLUFAN said:

So what?

“There is no truth” would be an objective fact in your understanding of reality. 

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Why would I be confusing myself with my own subjective position?

Now you don't think people can be confused either? Are you trolling me?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Boyle5150 said:

“There is no truth” would be an objective fact in your understanding of reality. 

Nooooo...it's an inherently subjective fact in my understanding of reality because I simply cannot have an objective fact based on my own perception.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Rev said:

Now you don't think people can be confused either? Are you trolling me?

Other people can absolutely be confused by anyone else's positions on an issue because they don't live in that person's subjective experience.

[Boyle5150]

1 minute ago, SFLUFAN said:

Nooooo...it's an inherently subjective fact in my understanding of reality because I simply cannot have an objective fact based on my own perception.

Is this true or false?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Boyle5150 said:

Is this true or false?

Damned if I know!

[Rev]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Other people can absolutely be confused by anyone else's positions on an issue because they don't live in that person's subjective experience.

If only your subjective experience exists, then I don't exist as a separate subjectivity. I'm just part of yours so if you're confused about my subjective experience, you're actually confused about your own.

[Boyle5150]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

Damned if I know!

Can it be both or one or the other?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Boyle5150 said:

Can it be both or one or the other?

Absolutely.

 

Or absolutely not.

[Rev]

I'm going to just assume you're trolling now, or at least close to pretending like you were trolling the whole time to save face. Thanks for the chat.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

If only your subjective experience exists, then I don't exist as a separate subjectivity. I'm just part of yours so if you're confused about my subjective experience, you're actually confused about your own.

No argument from me there! 

 

But all I've got to work with is my subjective experience so I just gotta run with it as best I can!

[Boyle5150]

1 minute ago, SFLUFAN said:

Absolutely.

 

Or absolutely not.

This (what I quoted) is either true or it is not. That’s an objective fact. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

10 minutes ago, Rev said:

I'm going to just assume you're trolling now, or at least close to pretending like you were trolling the whole time to save face. Thanks for the chat.

Why would I be concerned about "saving face" when I have said absolutely nothing that I'm even remotely ashamed or embarrassed about?  In fact, this discussion has only helped me further reinforce my convictions so I am genuinely appreciative!

Ergo, I hereby declare victory in this thread!

 

[Rev]

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Why would I be concerned about "saving face" when I have said absolutely nothing that I'm even remotely ashamed or embarrassed about?  In fact, this discussion has only helped me further reinforced my convictions so I am genuinely appreciative!

Ergo, I hereby declare victory in this thread!

 

Forum arguments in a nutshell.

[SaysWho?]

Just now, Rev said:

Forum arguments in a nutshell.

 

Turtle power.

[Kal-El814]

I’m no kind of philosopher at all, but what Wade is saying seems pretty consistent with what my understanding of solipsism is.

[Rev]

Just now, Kal-El814 said:

I’m no kind of philosopher at all, but what Wade is saying seems pretty consistent with what my understanding of solipsism is.

Depends. There are different degrees and variations of solipsism. "My subjective experience is all that I know exists" is different from "nothing else exists other than my experience." The latter is far more speculative and internally incoherent.

[Boyle5150]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome

 

wade needs to have more human contact.