More Bodies of Indigenous Children have been found at former Residential Schools Using Ground Penetrating Radar in Canada

[AbsolutSurgen]

"Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity,"

Statement from Pope Benedict, April 29, 2009

2 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Wasn’t this apology directed to the people of South America ?

No.  It was directed to all of the indigenous people of the Americas.

[Guest]

me waiting to see how @CitizenVectronpivots to further defend the burnings  

[AbsolutSurgen]

36 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

me waiting to see how @CitizenVectronpivots to further defend the burnings  

To be fair to @CitizenVectron, I didn't hear him defend the burnings.  And the narrative in parts of the Canadian media right now is that the Catholic church didn't apologize -- despite the fact that most media sources reported Pope Benedict's statement as an apology in 2009.

 

The church burnings have been widely criticized by both Canadian politicians and first nations leadership.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

To be fair to @CitizenVectron, I didn't hear him defend the burnings.  And the narrative in parts of the Canadian media right now is that the Catholic church didn't apologize -- despite the fact that most media sources reported Pope Benedict's statement as an apology in 2009.

 

The church burnings have been widely criticized by both Canadian politicians and first nations leadership.

Oh, he is. He’s just hiding it behind “the church should have done X if they didn’t want this to happen”, which is why when confronted with the Pope doing what he said would have stopped it from occurring he will now need to find something else to say they should have done. It’s a clever move, but I know my guy  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

As long as people who aren't directly involved aren't hurt, I see nothing wrong with spontaneously directing ire towards buildings that represent institutions when fresh wounds are opened for grave injustices.

 

I'll defend it. It's just a fucking building. Would I do it myself? No, but it's not my people or history that has been wronged!

[johnny]

i’ll defend the burning of buildings. why? 

 

 

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

"I humbly ask for forgiveness not only for the offences of the church itself, but also for the crimes against native peoples during the so-called conquest of America"

Pope Francis, July 10, 2015

 

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

We’ve been Riley’d again

 

1 hour ago, SimpleG said:

Wasn’t this apology directed to the people of South America ?

 

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

"Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity,"

Statement from Pope Benedict, April 29, 2009

No.  It was directed to all of the indigenous people of the Americas.

 

16 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Oh, he is. He’s just hiding it behind “the church should have done X if they didn’t want this to happen”, which is why when confronted with the Pope doing what he said would have stopped it from occurring he will now need to find something else to say they should have done. It’s a clever move, but I know my guy  

 

I'm definitely not defending the burnings, though I'm also not that insulted or offended by them. They are buildings, and the Church has done far worse without ever approaching proper punishment or restitution. And the Pope has definitely not apologized or confronted the residential schools issue directly. His apology in 2009 for the "crimes" in the conquest of America is like Germany apologizing for the "crimes" of WWII before anyone has discovered the bodies in Auschwitz. The Pope (and church) need to apologize again for these specific acts. And then again and again, each time more horrible crimes are found. It's not a one-and-done situation. What needs to happen is a specific apology for the residential schools ever existing, and an admission that schools of this type are inherently wrong. I don't think that is likely, as schools of this type still exist around the world, run by the Catholic Church, and serve the same purpose of converting children and taking them away from their own culture. The current of approach of offering prayers for the dead children is insulting.

 

Moreover, the continued apology is only a small part of reconciliation. A larger issue is the financial restitution that must be made, and further punishment of the church. In 2006, the Catholic Church agreed to a settlement whereby they'd do a few things:

• $29 million payment to Indigenous groups for programs and services 
• Service-in-kind agreement worth $25 million for other services to be offered by Catholic entities to Indigenous groups
• $25 million commitment for additional fundraising

The last item was never achieved (falling well short), and the Church as since backed out of the agreement (with no punishment for doing so). Here's an article on the issue:

 

As Catholic Church fundraising falls short, Saskatoon bishop still hopes Pope will apologize for residential schools

SASKATOON.CTVNEWS.CA

---

The Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations says the Catholic Church hasn’t done enough to reach fundraising goals set out in a 2006 agreement.

 

Also:

 

Pope Will Meet With Indigenous Leaders About Canada's Residential Schools - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

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Canada’s Indigenous communities have long sought a papal apology for the church’s role in a system of forced assimilation at schools where abuse and disease were widespread.

 

Quote

Despite a direct plea from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in 2017, the pope has consistently refused to apologize for the church.
 

Three Protestant denominations that also ran residential schools apologized long ago and contributed millions of dollars to settle in 2005 a class-action suit brought by former students.
 

The Catholic Church, however, has since raised less than four million Canadian dollars, or $3.2 million, of its 25 million dollar share of the settlement.

 

And:

 

Pope Rejects Call for Apology to Canada’s Indigenous People - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

---

Canada’s Catholic bishops said Pope Francis would not apologize for the church’s role in an educational system that tried to eliminate Indigenous culture.

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

I'm definitely not defending the burnings

Coward

[AbsolutSurgen]

57 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm definitely not defending the burnings, though I'm also not that insulted or offended by them. They are buildings, and the Church has done far worse without ever approaching proper punishment or restitution. And the Pope has definitely not apologized or confronted the residential schools issue directly. His apology in 2009 for the "crimes" in the conquest of America is like Germany apologizing for the "crimes" of WWII before anyone has discovered the bodies in Auschwitz. The Pope (and church) need to apologize again for these specific acts. And then again and again, each time more horrible crimes are found. It's not a one-and-done situation. What needs to happen is a specific apology for the residential schools ever existing, and an admission that schools of this type are inherently wrong. I don't think that is likely, as schools of this type still exist around the world, run by the Catholic Church, and serve the same purpose of converting children and taking them away from their own culture. The current of approach of offering prayers for the dead children is insulting.

 

Moreover, the continued apology is only a small part of reconciliation. A larger issue is the financial restitution that must be made, and further punishment of the church. In 2006, the Catholic Church agreed to a settlement whereby they'd do a few things:

• $29 million payment to Indigenous groups for programs and services 
• Service-in-kind agreement worth $25 million for other services to be offered by Catholic entities to Indigenous groups
• $25 million commitment for additional fundraising

The last item was never achieved (falling well short), and the Church as since backed out of the agreement (with no punishment for doing so). Here's an article on the issue:

 

As Catholic Church fundraising falls short, Saskatoon bishop still hopes Pope will apologize for residential schools

SASKATOON.CTVNEWS.CA

---

The Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations says the Catholic Church hasn’t done enough to reach fundraising goals set out in a 2006 agreement.

 

Also:

 

Pope Will Meet With Indigenous Leaders About Canada's Residential Schools - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

---

Canada’s Indigenous communities have long sought a papal apology for the church’s role in a system of forced assimilation at schools where abuse and disease were widespread.

 

 

And:

 

Pope Rejects Call for Apology to Canada’s Indigenous People - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

---

Canada’s Catholic bishops said Pope Francis would not apologize for the church’s role in an educational system that tried to eliminate Indigenous culture.

 

Defending the burning of churches by saying they have done worse in the past is a strange argument.  Every religious institution has done horrendous things in its past.  That doesn't justify the destruction or defacement of any church/mosque/temple of any religion, by anybody.

 

There is no new crime that has been uncovered here.

[Guest]

I also think that it’s a cop out to say “they are just buildings” when the purpose of burning them is always because they are more than just buildings to the people who go to them. The tricky piece here is that the people who go to these churches aren’t the ones who did the wrongs, and they can’t enact any of the things people are asking of the Church. And the fact of the matter is the Church leadership is completely unaffected by this, it’s just the local parishioners who are harmed.

 

And I say this as a person who is pretty much a block of wood with regards to sentimental connection to things, including buildings, but I understand that most people aren’t. That is part of why burning Black churches back in the day was an effective terrorism strategy. They aren’t “just buildings” to the people who go to them.

[CitizenVectron]

My comparison was they are buildings vs the thousands of children who died. And again, I am not defending the burnings, I don't think that should happen (for the reasons sblfilms listed). But I'm also not heartbroken over the burnings, the church can afford to rebuilt them if they want (thought they will force local people to fundraise).

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

The Black churches in the South were targeted because they were and are centers of civic life and activism, to incite fear and terror among the parishioners and population writ large to attempt to enforce the white dominated social order. These appear to be targeted in retaliation for new revelations regarding the role of the church in ethnic cleansing.

 

Just because the type of building burning is the same doesn't mean these actions, motivations, and targets of ire are morally the same. 

[Guest]

Burning these buildings target the wrong people, it really is as simple as that. 

[CitizenVectron]

3 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Burning these buildings target the wrong people, it really is as simple as that. 

 

I would fully support somehow burning down the Vatican, stupid hats and all.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

18 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Burning these buildings target the wrong people, it really is as simple as that. 

So, implicitly, what buildings can be targeted and burned down? How do you target an institution after all the humans behind the atrocities are largely mostly (completely? Idk) dead?

[AbsolutSurgen]

 

 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

So, implicitly, what buildings can be targeted and burned down? How do you target an institution after all the humans behind the atrocities are largely mostly (completely? Idk) dead?

I would oppose the burning of buildings as a general rule. The second question is a good one, and for me personally I don’t see revenge as a worthwhile activity particularly when the parties involved are in large part long gone. Based on what I’ve read here in this thread, it seems as though the Canadian government itself needs to own some of the responsibility and make restitution to the families of those who were harmed, and also for the institutions who ran these to do the same.

 

The truth is there is nothing that can be done to make up for this sort of wicked behavior, but financial compensation from the perpetrators to the victim’s families is about the best you can hope for now that the practice itself is over.

[CitizenVectron]

This is why you issue court-ordered payments, not "agreements" to fundraise:

 

Catholic Church raised nearly $300M for buildings since promising residential school survivors $25M in 2005 | CBC News

WWW.CBC.CA

---

In 2015, Catholic officials argued in court they could only fundraise a total of $3.9 million for residential school survivors, but efforts for Catholic cathedrals and other buildings across Canada reached nearly $300 million since November 2005, according to data gathered by CBC News.

 

Quote

These include a $128-million renovation of St. Michael's Cathedral Basilica in Toronto. The 2016 gala opening — complete with a brass band — was held one year after Canadian church groups went to court to say there was no more fundraising money for survivors.

 

Critics say these figures throw into question the church's legal claim it gave "best efforts" to help survivors.

 

Yeah no doink.

[Guest]

In the US, money donated for a specific use by a non-prof has the be used for that reason. I would be surprised if the same isn’t true in Canada, so a bit of a weird point to make.

[Brick]

Fuck the Church. Fuck the Vatican. Fuck the Pope. 

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

In the US, money donated for a specific use by a non-prof has the be used for that reason. I would be surprised if the same isn’t true in Canada, so a bit of a weird point to make.

 

I think the point isn't that people donated to a specific cause, it's that the church chose to fundraise for those causes, and not the other (and that people then donated to the former, and not the latter). Basically, no one cared.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

I think the point isn't that people donated to a specific cause, it's that the church chose to fundraise for those causes, and not the other (and that people then donated to the former, and not the latter). Basically, no one cared.

They fundraised for both (and many other things over that time). Pitting one against the other is just shoddy journalism. It’s no different than if I looked at what you spend on your housing vs. what you donated to charity. Naturally you spend more on the facilities you use than you do on causes you support, no matter how much you care about those things. 
 

The real problem is passing off the responsibility to parishioners to do special fundraising for reparations the Church as an organization is really responsible for. Pay the money, they certainly have it in their general fund to do. To me it’s like restaurants in America not paying wait staff hardly anything and moving the responsibility of adequately compensating employees directly onto the customers. It’s a poor practice.

[CitizenVectron]

23 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

They fundraised for both (and many other things over that time). Pitting one against the other is just shoddy journalism. It’s no different than if I looked at what you spend on your housing vs. what you donated to charity. Naturally you spend more on the facilities you use than you do on causes you support, no matter how much you care about those things. 
 

The real problem is passing off the responsibility to parishioners to do special fundraising for reparations the Church as an organization is really responsible for. Pay the money, they certainly have it in their general fund to do. To me it’s like restaurants in America not paying wait staff hardly anything and moving the responsibility of adequately compensating employees directly onto the customers. It’s a poor practice.

 

I agree that they should be paying it out of their general fund. I also think that it should have been a court-ordered payment once they failed to live up to their obligations. In terms of fundraising, they chose to devote more time and energy to rebuild cathedrals in multiple cities than to raise money for the hundreds of thousands of kids they took, tens of thousands of whom are still alive. That choice to focus more on buildings than on reparations is a moral failing.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

In terms of fundraising, they chose to devote more time and energy to rebuild cathedrals in multiple cities than to raise money for the hundreds of thousands of kids they took, tens of thousands of whom are still alive.

<citation needed>

[CitizenVectron]

Just now, sblfilms said:

<citation needed>

 

The numbers bear it out? I mean, the alternative is that they did devote more time and energy to raise $4 million than $300 million, but then the answer as to why is that Catholics themselves chose to donate to buildings rather than reparations. So that puts the blame not on the church, but on Catholics themselves. Either way, one side or another in that equation did not prioritize reparations they promised to pay.

[Snaynay1]

I have a relative that died in one of these but in the United States. Her sisters are still alive (in their early 90s) and they have long talked about this shit in my family. It would have been my great aunt that died when she was about 4. Apparently she pissed her bed and was made to carry her mattress around and then died when she fell down the stairs with it and broke her neck. They are Canadian Mohawk. I'm sure there are others still alive that saw this shit and they just need to find them. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

 

Don't give them the clicks for this dog shit article but also their website is filled with shitty redirects and spam ads