Greatoneshere

Yeah, it's . . . I only watch it for completeness' sake. It's not an enjoyable movie. There's potentially cool shit in there, but it's all squandered. The only good thing to come from it (the real scene but also this): "You should hear it at full blast. I was holding back." "I doubt that." "You challenge me?" "Your whip vs. mine."

Also, to be clear about me with Bale's characters in the Prestige - I think he's fantastically acted and I like his storyline too. When he one ups the bullying prison guard by locking his leg to a shackle is one of my favorite "fun" magician moments from the film (among many great Bale moments). Bale's great - I was just talking from, like, a moral perspective. Also the whole movie is quotable. Tesla alone, by the great Bowie, going: "nothing is impossible Mr. Angier. what you want is simply expensive" may be the most scientist/inventor thing to say of all time. And it's awesome. A true scientist would truly believe nothing is impossible, it just hasn't been figured out yet, and because of capitalism and life, it will be expensive. How right he was. The man guessed wifi long before its time. What Bale misses is the fact that Jackman is incepted (haha) by the idea of living the act all the time. Her's told once by Cutter and once by Scar Jo that Borden's act is identical twins, but he refuses. It drives him to get the duplicate machine, something truly never seen before. Jackman exceeds Bale, for all of Bale's "for the art" mentality. When Bale incepts the idea to Jackman that a true magician lives and goes beyond the act with the Chinese magician, it never stops for Jackman afterward. He's incepted and he'll never believe that with Bale it's "just" twins. He wanted to believe in real magic, and genuinely finds it. "It's just . . . you want something more."

I like the way you think good sir.

Yes, please be safe. I still wouldn't trust it! But . . . I dunno, it IS Tenet.

This is a good man right here.

I'm definitely not braving a theater in this Covid climate to see Tenet. Will look for other ways though.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear Angier doesn't actively want to know how his trick works. He finds all he needs to know with that first time where he does try to figure it out - with the chalk and the gun. He tried it, was horrified (rightfully so, to some degree), and said: "nope, let's just do the trick and go after Bale". He could have experimented heavily with it, monetized it, a billion different things, but instead he just does his plan and hides the fact it creates duplicates from everyone. That's not a man who wants to know how it works with any more specificity than what had already been tried (and failed). He definitely wanted to know Borden's trick, but he was told from jump street from Cutter that it's twins, which it is. It was, hilariously, too unbelievable for Angier, who ends up with the unbelievable with a duplicate machine. The numerous amounts of dramatic irony in the film is enormous (drowning, the unbelievable, who was the better magician, etc.) (in a good way). The fact Jackman had kidnapped Fallon is particularly ironic since that was Borden's secret - a twin brother - and he had him captured and buried alive. Jackman had no idea what he had - he had the truth right in front of his face and he missed it, but it did lead to the duplicate machine (again, accidentally thanks to Borden, hilariously) so it benefitted him ultimately, but he could have satiated his curiosity about Borden's secret way earlier. Edit: Additional irony: Tesla is so wanting for money (I really respect Tesla and history did him dirty, so it's a shame) that he never even tells Angier at any point that he has nothing to do with Borden's trick. Tesla knows why Angier came there, so to not tell him is pretty fucked up.

After the gun incident and the presumable first drowning in the first show, I agree - Angier no longer cares and probably doesn't even want to know anymore himself. If he works it out, then he (and we) know, and that's scary. Better to just take the risk. This is, in part, why I find Angier's journey and story so much more riveting than Bale's, and why I think all the things he does are all way less bad than what the Bale's do.

I know you don't, by comparison I feel big data carries more weight in finding the intersubjective truth of the art, but I'm not beholden to them either. So I get that haha. Yep, right on all counts I think. The ambiguity is the point. The one turning the machine on hopes each time he will be the man on the balcony, but Jackman never knows. Fucking brilliant. Literally one of my favorite scenes in the movie is when he bows underneath the stage. He wanted it so bad, and I felt bad for him in that moment. But also this is true. He knew the risks. I think he's clearly consenting, so I agree with you. That's why Jackman's final speech at the end is so riveting. That is a man who has been pushed so far past what he thought he was capable of. He was just a young man who wanted to entertain children with his wife and live a happy life away from his rich family which disapproved of him. Yet, in the end, he uses all his family's wealth, the one thing he hated, to achieve what he never initially even cared for, because of Bale. He just wanted to make people happy, and be a showman. His risks feel palpable, real.

Oh it gets worse my friend. It's at 60% with top critics on RottenTomatoes, and at 76% all critics. I even think the 76% is too low. The audience score? 92% haha. This, The Fountain, and The Fall all having mediocre to bad scores always surprises me. Other, more divisive films like Cloud Atlas make more sense, but not those. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prestige

I agree, he's killing himself, I just don't think it's a big deal. Other Jackman who gets shot begged for his life, because, as I said, arguably that was the original Jackman (or the first duplicate) wanting to live, because of course. After that, all bets are off. The surprise on the one's face drowning is two-fold: that time the plan worked, because Bale was there, and two: Jackman admits he never knew which one lived and which one died - so I imagine finding out you're the one dying after the machine has done its thing when you're in the box, drowning, yeah, that'd be a surprise and you might fight for your life anyway since you finally realize the truth of who is the one dying and who is being teleported. But again, seems like small potatoes - they're all buying into the idea for the trick regardless since they all know someone's dying when the trick is done with the very first show. It's not like the Jackman's don't know (cause they do know, they put it there) there's a drowning box under the stage for the one who stands in place and a Jackman will ultimately fall into one and drown. They definitely know/are aware.

Indeed, and it was quite good! It counts, to me at least.

This is Mike Flanagan, not Ryan Murphy, I don't think we'll have to worry about that (I hope).

Yep, I'm on board with all of this. I think there is a conversation about the agency of the duplicates, but since all we get is, as you said, survival instinct faced with death (gun, drowning), we don't observe any agency except for the duplicate/whatever that's doing all the setting up and shows with Michael Caine's character, etc. That's technically agency since that's a duplicate doing all that (since, as we explained, the "original, original" Jackman either dies from the gun or the drowning from the first show, so whatever took his place is a duplicate). Either way, I agree overall. Damn, this movie is so good, every time it comes up in the 14 years since its release it always gets discussion going.

I think both of you are correct at the same time. They are duplicates, not clones, but they do have agency and can exist at the same time as another duplicate, meaning they can't both be the "original" Jackman at the same time even though they also are since they are facsimiles with all the same memories and traumas. I think the only key aspect that matters for discussion purposes is they do have agency, the rest is pedantry anyway. The machine may very well theoretically also erode a part of your soul/person with each copy, which would also explain why Jackman becomes so isolated and driven to just the prestige by the end, since that was all that's left of him. The book the film is based on, which is considerably different, goes hard into this aspect whereas the film hardly hints at it, though it does hint at it. Remember, the original Jackman was a very happy man. Yes, the films events change him, but after he starts copying himself, he becomes worse and worse. Partly due to Bale, partly due to isolation, but also partly due to using the machine. The big question is: does Jackman know he's eroding a part of himself each time, and doing it anyway? If he doesn't know, then he's more innocent in hurting himself. If he does know, then damn, dude was committed to some serious self-harm/self-destruction, but I admire the committment.

You're right, I failed to mention the daughter. I'd argue Jackman was doing the daughter a service, given all the Bales had done to their own family. Also, to be clear, I'm not saying Jackman is a saint. But he lost his wife, he suffers, he struggles, etc. I relate to that more than the Bales. I earlier did mention that Jackman did Scar Jo wrong, 100%. It was pretty clear she liked him and felt bad for him but he was too depressed and angry to care. The daughter should be with her dad, but to be fair, we don't know which Bale that is. Perhaps she would have had a better life with Jackman. As for the framing, I was fine with it, I felt Bale deserved it at that point (I kid, I kid) but I hear you on that. I'm only using the term original Jackman for clarity's sake, no other reason. My original point isn't that Jackman doesn't do bad things, but they are driven by what Bale does to him in large part. A lot of people when discussing the Prestige say Jackman is the "bad" one. I've always felt what the Bales do is worse, that's all. I stand by that point. Not that Jackman is some saint. He did indeed do Scar Jo wrong, and framing one of the Bales and taking away the daughter aren't good either. But those three things pale in comparison to what Bale does and initiates. Remember, the things Jackman did near the end are hail mary last ditch attempts to get back at Bale, it's not like he went to that option first. He was at his wits' end. But yes, bad all the same, just not nearly as bad as the Bales, to me.

People will always fight to live even if they have accepted to die. The Jackman that begs not to be shot is, I think, the original Jackman attempting to explain that he's the original Jackman, but duplicate Jackman shoots him because he's so freaked out over the whole thing (or vice versa, doesn't matter). As for the Jackman that drowns, two things: drowning is something your body inherently fights, and two, it could thereotically be for Bale's sake (acting as if fighting for his life). Either way, the original Jackman and the original duplicate Jackman are dead; anything the later duplicate Jackman's do, they know someone's dying, whether it's duplicate 3 or duplicate 30 and that's where the consent comes in. The movie might make an (I think, weak) argument at the end when nice Bale tries to make Jackman feel bad for everything he's done, but that's not necessarily the movie's perspective, that's the character's perspective. Bale drove Jackman, in part, to where he ended up, yet takes no responsibility at all for it while trying to guilt Jackman, and I call BS on that as well. Remember, this is a man who lost his wife, who he really loved, under vague circumstances by two men living ostensibly one life (technically two lives with the engineer character) in secret - it would drive anyone crazy. Jackman even tries to drown himself earlier in the film after his wife's death in the sink but can't - because it is impossible to willingly drown yourself, which is why you need a weight with you to drag you down . . . or an enclosed box, which is what happens and what he does to himself over and over, so there's that aspect to consider to - all the duplicates have the same trauma as the original Jackman, so perhaps they are even moreso consenting to dying by drowning, like his wife died. The Bale's are very much in part responsible what Jackman ends up doing to himself over and over again later, for those who want to indict Jackman's actions, you must indict Bale by extension to some degree. Does that explain my view better? If the later Jackman's know someone's dying, and they never know who survives, then they're all consenting in some way, shape, or form, to the trick more than themselves. I'm certainly way more okay with that than Bale driving his wife to suicide, making his child motherless on top of the aforementioned accident with Jackman's wife and then driving Jackman crazy. Seems a lot worse than consenting duplicates knowingly killing themselves, even if vaguely willingly/not willingly.

Hahaha I've seen the movie a ton, and I'm not morally against self-destruction, it's common for one's art or in the pursuit of one's dreams. I'd do exactly what Jackman did in his position, I'd happily kill myself off over and over and not give it a moral thought. If my duplicates keep up my work, it's because they feel exactly as I do, because they are me. I've seen the movie way too much, definitely give it a rewatch and lemme know your thoughts!

I'm definitely Batman'ed out, but this looks good regardless.

I don't see self-harm in Jackman's situation, even if they are distinct beings, as bad, since each duplicate is making a choice to kill themselves - they knew the consequences of their choice and they accept it over and over. I'm not really worried about the finer details of how okay/not okay they might be in the moment of their drowning since they've willfully accepted such a fate in the bigger pursuit of the original Jackman's dream. Bale's just hurting other people, leading one to leave him and the other to kill herself. This is all on top of him driving Jackman crazy by not giving him an answer about his own wife's death. I don't think Jackman's a bad person at all, except how he ends up treating Scarlet Johansson, whereas I think Bale thinks he has the moral high ground but is actually a much worse person in the film. Recall, it's not only Bale who doesn't give Jackman an answer, it's Bale who draws further blood when Jackman steals his trick and makes it showier. So, yeah, Bale's worse, but the movie exonerates him (well, exonerates the nicer of the two Bale's, though neither deserves it).

Been looking forward to this. Mike Flanagan is a great filmmaker.

Yes, do not worry, there are many that in retrospect agree with you. Phantom is easily the most real of the three movies. It has the most practical effects, among other things, and feels the most like a George Lucas Star Wars movie of the prequel films. 100%.

What you describe isn't murder to me, I'd be curious how killing duplicates of yourself, particularly when it's clear the original regardless is dead, is a worse misdeed than the people Bale's dual lives destroys.

I didn't believe it was him, but after rewatching the trailer and hearing him say: "this guy is crazy!'; uhhhh . . . that's Colin fucking Farrell. Leave it to the Apes director to pull off amazing practical makeup. The eyes are the biggest give away in retrospect. Paul Dano as the Riddler and Colin Farrell as the Penguin? People need to be paying attention to this movie.

I feel the same. When you get past how stupid the plot gets as the movie goes on, its a beautiful, emotional, roller coaster of a film.