Duderino

I'm easily more curious about XSS raytracing performance than where the XSX lands relative to PC cards.  

Over the next 6+ years I suspect Raytracing will become more integral to next-gen lighting and even game design (mirror puzzles).  Fingers crossed that RT scales reasonably enough to XSS.

I know not everyone saw this as a positive at the time, but I do really miss the GameCube's clicky triggers.  Looking forward to games bringing back the tactile feel of a trigger button press.

3 hours ago, TomCat said:

Well they cant talk about features because all they have is the Xtra fast SSD.  Did that help them get native 4k60 in Valhalla  NOPE  that xtra fast ssd only leads to a couple seconds faster load times THATS IT

The fact that we haven't seen tangible comparisons yet has a lot to do with it.  With visual performance being one of the XSX's anticipated strengths and selling points, you should expect the majority of graphics speculation to happen here.

Just be patient, embargo will lift in the comming days/weeks. There will be plenty more to discuss that is more concrete then.

I imagine it will be similar to PC raytracing comparisons right now.  Within most games there will be variable quality and performance depending on scene rendering complexity, but implementation and optimization leaders will still emerge.

Going to require a deeper look beyond just FPS and resolution, which IMO is a great thing.

16 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Ubisoft marketing strikes again!

On the positive, I am still impressed.  1440p+ 30fps with that much RT going on would still be something to celebrate on consoles.  Even if upscaled to.  I could see that being a benchmark for the most graphically intensive games this gen.  It definitely fits the numbers we're seeing thus far.

Same.  Now what will really be interesting to see is how this stacks up against Spiderman MM in terms of the final render resolution and raytracing fidelity.

If the PC space is anything to go by, the implementation from game to game is probably going to be a large factor.

Sounds like the WatchDog’s video is in the 1440p range.

16 hours ago, TomCat said:

I think the NDA expired today when AMD actually showed the cards

Whatever the case, I haven't heard of any 3rd party developers discussing what the RDNA2 feature differences equate to across the platforms.  At least not yet.  There's obviously lots of speculation on what is omitted with the PS5, but there is a shortage of concrete confirmations or opinions from devs on any long term implications.

The best part about this news?  AMD's ML Super Sampling will go cross-platform and open source, meaning developers can take it and run with it as they see fit:
 

AMD tells me it's working on its own super sampling technology, similar to Nvidia's DLSS. It will be open and cross-platform, which could mean it'll come to Xbox Series X and PS5. DLSS is a game changer for Nvidia, so this could be big news. Details: https://t.co/IWQkrJrtMq pic.twitter.com/SCF51OjzLb

— Tom Warren (@tomwarren) October 28, 2020

2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Devs could still comment on it though?  I wonder if the muzzle will still be in effect for long.

Not if everyone is under NDA or continues to be regarding these details.

1 minute ago, JPDunks4 said:

 

I know there are lots of implementations of Ray Tracing, so I have no clue.  The description just stood out to me as sounding substantially different, but I don't know if Ubisoft wrote that up or MS and Sony's teams wrote what they wanted highlighted.

Nvdia's blog only mentions raytraced reflections on PC.  My guess would be the same will be true for consoles.

9 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

 

Ultimately this will be it.  We won't know until games start releasing and we can see some differences in performance.  We might not even know much for a few years as some of these techniques and tools might not be fully utilized for games for some time, just like UE5 advantages won't be ready til next year. 

 

I am waiting to see Watch Dogs, as by Ubisofts own Next Gen statements, it mentions Ray Traced Reflections for Xbox Consoles, but not Sony's.  Is it just marketing speak and MS highlights it while Sony doesn't?  Or will there be any actual differences in the results.  A few weeks to find out.

 

 

We know at least it is confirmed for PS5 as well:

Btw, I agree that if MS has any key advantages with their RDNA2 support, it's likely not to show up in the first year or so.

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I think @TomCat's point was pretty self explanatory... he's saying how good Gears 5 looks and it's not even using real raytracing. His point is that other games that DO implement raytracing on the XSX will more than likely look better regardless of the level of implementation if a game that is using trickery to mimic actual raytracing can look this good. I don't even understand (or care about) all of this shit and I got what he was saying.

Oh I fully understand what he is saying.  I just find it to be a disjointed point given how far removed screen space GI is from actual Raytraced GI.  One has little to no indication of how good the other can look or perform.  It's apples to oranges.

  Right now where the XSX will land relative to nVidia's RT cards is still a bit of a mystery.  DF will hopefully shed more light on that soon.  Think it may surprise, but relative to what and by how much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

6 hours ago, TomCat said:

again  I never said its a Raytracing showpiece.  Ue4 doesnt support Real Raytracing. but for it to not be real raytracing it looks damn good thats all I'm saying

It is a showpiece for 120 fps for sure, and a good example of how screen space techniques can still be used in lieu of Raytracing when it is prohibitively expensive either due to a less perfomant implementation, the cost of raytracing what is on display, or if a game has other priorities.  No disagreements there.  

I'm just not sure why Gears 5 was brought up in response to the Raytracing claims.  The Coalition's XSX patch is a very different development track from games tackling Raytracing on the system right now.

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

wasnt saying it ws a RT showcase. I was saying look how great it looks and its not even real Ray Tracing.  Its software Ray tracing for Global Ilumination

UE4's Screen Space GI can look good, but it has similar caveats to screen space reflections.  And while the technique is related to Raytraced GI, the technical undertaking of the later is on a different level.

Gears 5 is a solid looking game, especially with the new bells and whistles.  It's just not doubling down on future tech like the Raytracing showcases are.  I'm sure Gears 6 and other future MS fist party tittles will, but in the meantime it's going to come down to the 3rd parties to demonstrate the XSX's Raytracing capabilities in the AAA space, at least in the first 6 months to a year.  That is the better indication of where the console can take games visually in the future.

2 hours ago, TomCat said:

yep none of that has been implemented yet in any games.   You see how well gears of war looks. its only using Software Raytracing.

To my knowledge Gears 5 still relies on screen space reflections, but the Series X patch adds UE4's screen space contact shadows and screen space GI.

Gears 5 is visually far better off with these additions, but it is not technically a Raytracing showcase.

13 minutes ago, chakoo said:

Regarding the launch day discussion. Dreamcast continues to be the only system with a good launch day lineup.  (yes sure N64 with Mario 64 but that was the only game, Pilotwings fans do your worse).

The N64 did have a pretty solid launch window though with games like Wave Race 64 and Wayne Gretzsky's 3D Hockey (first 4 player N64 game).

Costly, but the non-propietary slot is already coming into play.

A $229 1TB 7gb/s SSD is a better value proposition than the $219 1TB 2.4gb/s XSX Seagate card.

Not at all surprised to hear Alex say that many do not fully understand yet the need for compromises with RT, or that full pathtracing a la Minecraft is not going to be achievable for most titles.

Sipderman's inclusion of Raytraced reflections at all is an impressive feat.  The fact that we're seeing this on a console while maintaining a 4k target is above my expectations.

1 hour ago, number305 said:

The story on Microsoft quickly switched from - they have no games to - it's no fair if they don't share their games with us!

As someone who owned an N64 and not a PlayStation back in the day I can relate.  Loved many of Square's SNES games but was disappointed to see none of their output come to the console I owned at the time.  Not exactly the same as Sony buying Square, but for the generation they were basically exclusive to Sony.

I don’t share that same enthusiasm for the Zenmax games but I get it.  Microsoft didn't foster these studios.  They purchased them.  Nothing is inheritely wrong with that, but neither are people feeling disappointed.  The question of what is "fair" though should be eliminated from any discourse on the subject.

34 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

@Greatoneshere I definitely follow that logic, except exclusives. Sony has a hell of a stable of 1st party IPs that I’d love to have on my PC.

This and sometimes there is not parity on PC, such as many PC ports lacking of HDR support this gen.  Looking forward I could see the same happening for 3D audio advancements or current PS5 specific features like adaptive triggers.

Cross-gen AAA tittles that support Raytracing but rely on light maps for performance modes are going to be a larger install in many if not most cases.

The one exception will likely be the Series S, with Raytracing being far from a given devs can exclude BVH volumes from the sku’s build.

With Spiderman, Light maps + Raytracing BVH data + Higher quality assets is no doubt larger than asset duplication necessarily with HDDs.

I imagine that is in reference to Unreal's Signed Distance Field Shadows.  Different from Raytracing in the context of Spiderman, Control, etc.   (Control without RTX enabled uses signed distance fields btw.)

1 hour ago, Dodger said:

Isn't MS adding this stuff to their "optimized for series X" first party games for free?

Is any MS first party title beyond Minecraft retroactively receiving a Raytracing upgrade?  I know Gears 5 is getting a number of improvements including Screen Space GI, but not Raytracing.