Scott

“...and I think you’re doing great.”

He couldn’t resist. He somehow managed to compliment himself in the middle of an incoherent rant about dead soldiers being received by their grieving families. 

This is a mentally deranged person, and we selected him to run the country. We’re all just standing around watching this dumpster burn. 

The cop who arrested me for stealing a car is trying to overturn my status as a free person, and the witness who called the police had a cousin who works for the police force. I should go free.

The average American is too dumb to adequately process and act upon the realities of modern politics. We are propaganda-fed, gullible, and emotionally polarized. Nothing matters at this point. Republicans are rallying around their team and sinking deeper and deeper into the alternative reality their favorite shiny talking head spoon fed them over the dinner table tonight. It’s all fucked. I’d move to Canada, but I still wouldn’t escape the reach of trump and Dumb America. 

FWIW:

I am living in northeastern Oklahoma at the moment (was also born here and lived here for several years).

I feel like 3 out of 4 cars on the road have the "Cherokee nation" license plate. Most of the people I am working with have it; they are all extremely "white."

Like, absolutely nothing about their ethnic appearance, their hobbies, their culture, their family traditions, their dress would ever give you the impression that they are anything other than good ole corn-fed midwestern honkies (like me).

I don't know how "Indian" you have to be to be considered "Indian" in Oklahoma, but I'm guessing the bar is extreeeeemely low.

Warren is from Oklahoma. I haven't followed this story that closely, and I don't know what her explanation was for listing herself as American Indian, but I could absolutely believe that she was told, as many people here are, that because of her trace Indian ancestry, she's Indian.

Great long-form discussion. D1P members likely won't hear anything they haven't heard Bernie say before, but it's refreshing to hear a real, civil conversation. Looks like this is the #1 trending video on Youtube. I hope other candidates come on Joe's show, and other shows like it. (Gabbard was a guest previously, as well).

11 minutes ago, 2user1cup said:

 

That needs to be a Democratic campaign ad running every day until next November. 

Good lord, we're back to busing.

Fuck CNN.

These debates are so worthless.

"Go easy on me, kid"

Pretty endearing moment from Joe.

Steve Bullock is such a selfish piece of shit for running for President rather than challenging a Senate seat in Montana.

Could turn a Senate seat blue... or go down as the 25th Presidential also-ran who later wrote a book that no one read.

https://www.seasteading.org/about/

He won't be impeached. Are Dems hoping it will help them in next year's election if they take yet another big swing at Trump and whiff?

17 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

1) You paying for your own debt doesn't mean you understand anyone else's position.

 

2) I didn't construct a false choice - you have no idea idea what I'm suggesting at all if you think that's the choice I'm presenting. Sounds more like you want my argument to be that false choice so it's easier to argue against me. Plenty of others have already responded to you with what I would say, but you just sound like an asshole given your response. "Emotional politics". Because caring is political.

 

The "border wall" is a hate monument, given the intent and spirit with which is it being billed. And statistically I'm pretty sure struggling college and post-college grads have a lot less power than the government or banks, so yeah, who has the power in this choice is quite clear, and what freer college intends to help curtail. No one said "college for all" or loan debt forgiveness is all we should do, everyone here wants systemic and institutional changes, but we can do multiple things at once. Again, context is everything.

1) You literally said, "I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how student loan debt works." My response was to indicate that I'm very familiar with student loan debt. Nowhere did I say I understand everyone else's position. Yet another false construct from you.

2) You also said, "Yes, it's the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation. I'm not sure what the problem is with that vs. putting even more into defense spending or ICE or a stupid hate monument." Those sentences imply that our options for government spending are either A) loan forgiveness B) defense C) ICE or D) hate monuments. I responded saying that this was a false choice, because obviously the money could be spent on something that isn't any of those options.

And I love that I'm an asshole for not wanting to pay off other people's loans. Am I an asshole if I'd rather see my taxes go toward something like green tech or cancer research? Is that acceptable? And caring isn't political... until you demand some people give up a bunch of their money to pay for the things YOU care about. When that happens, it's political.

One of my favorite quotes is from a friend and former classmate of mine: "I wouldn't let an 18 year old choose my drink for me at a bar - why did I let one pick my entire future?"

I still don't think you need a Mike Tyson shot to the mouth to realize that an English degree might have a hard time paying back $50k+ worth of loans, but I suppose the point is moot. Regardless of everything, life is tough enough without asking young people to navigate the treacherous waters of inflated tuition and predatory government lending. Makes one wonder where the guidance counselors and parents are. I'm guessing it'll take a generation or two before we catch up with the reality of higher ed in America these days. I still have family friends who shrug off the reality of their children's tuition - "ehh, they'll pay it off. Everyone does." I have a friend whose daughter is applying to dental school. I explained the difference in cost between in-state and out-of-state tuition (literally hundreds of thousands of dollars), and implored her to explain the situation to her daughter. Even after immediately hearing about how handcuffed her daughter could be, her response was, "well, all that money stuff is up to her. We're not paying it." A lot of folks are still waiting for that punch to the mouth.

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

The real solution is to provide free, public university education to everyone who wants it. Private schools can exist alongside just like they do for lower levels, but you'd need to pay for those. All employees would be public-sector.

I think this is a great idea.

10 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Ah yes, the $1.2trillion in student debt is from those who majored in basket weaving.

As you well understand, the popular "basket weaving" trope describes the many students who took out huge loans to pursue careers that had no foreseeable chance of leading to repayment. Maybe basket weaving wasn't the major, but it may as well have been. Take out a loan if you've made a plan to pay it back.

edit: with regard to the rest of what you wrote, it's a fuck-up across the board. Predatory lending coupled with reckless borrowing. I'm all for reforming the system (see CV's post), rather than investing in people with proven track records of bad investments.

5 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

You didn't answer my question though - are you okay with making all forms of debt inescapable, just like student loan debt? Mortgages, business loans (tied to the business owner(s)), etc? If people had to personally be responsible for all failed businesses (without using incorporation as an escape) then the economy would grind to a halt. So why should everyone but students (who are typically forced into loans while a minor) be able to escape their bad decisions?

In theory, yes, I'm fine with making all forms of debt inescapable. In practice, I'd have to see some models and tests run. However, with a corporation, at least you have a collection of individuals that is striving to produce or do something of value to society at large. As a taxpayer, I'd much rather take a bet on that collective than on some random 18 year old who made a bad choice of majors. But generally speaking, I'm opposed to bailouts of all kinds.

Let me ask you the inverse - would you be okay with all loans of any kind being "forgiven" by the taxpaying base of citizens? If I somehow get a loan for a $2 million house, and I make $20k a year, and eventually fess up that there's no way I can pay for that house... should you have to pay for my fuck up? (Also, this scenario isn't really that inconceivable, when you compare it to tuition for some of these schools, and the paths that many students are on).

33 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how student loan debt works or why it's so much higher than the rate of money made after college by a wide margin (thanks to interest rates and inflation). Yes, it's the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation. I'm not sure what the problem is with that vs. putting even more into defense spending or ICE or a stupid hate monument.

 

But sure, let's keep people down instead and give tax cuts to the rich. People's priorities really are fucked.

As someone who just finished paying off $250,000 of school loan debt, I certainly do understand how it works, fuckyouverymuch. I didn't need a bailout to get it done, either.

You've constructed a false choice - it's not "help out these poor, sweet college kids who've been crushed by The Man" or "erect hate monuments." You're projecting your own emotional politics onto the situation.

And insofar as you believe it's "the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation," I'm fine with tax dollars going toward hurricane victims or 911 first responders. Not so much for kids who figured that majoring in basket weaving at USC for 5 years was going to lead to a big payday.

11 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

You can fashion a loan forgiveness program which is designed to address the root cause of the issues in higher education you mentioned.  It doesn’t have to be a ‘no strings attached’ approach.  Indeed, for society to reap the maximum benefit, it shouldn’t be—it should come with strings attached that realign bad incentive structures in higher education (like the wasteful spending you mentioned that leads to tuitions rising faster than inflation)

 

But I find it curious that you would be against something that is in your own economic self-interest.  A less indebted society means a lower cost of living (for you, among others), a better labor market (for you, among others), greater economic growth (for you, among others), a lower overall cost of production and hence a better competitive edge internationally (for the whole country)...the list of benefits to you goes on and on.

 

Even if your attitude towards indebted college students amounts to ‘fuck em, they screwed themselves’, why would you undermine your own economic interests to ‘stick it’ to them?  Seems a touch masochistic.

 

It’s worth noting, btw, that, historically, the lack of cultural willingness to periodically forgive debts that have grown so huge they begin to eat into the economic surplus is one of the most consistent features of once successful civilizations that collapse.  

A loan forgiveness program *with strings attached* isn't a handout, so I'd be much more on board with it. The situation you described in your first paragraph is something I'd support. In my own field, graduates can qualify for limited loan forgiveness in exchange for working for the government for a given amount of time. Again, that's not a handout. That's help, and an incentive.

As far as it being against my own economic interest... how much would we stimulate the economy if we instantly forgave all mortgage debt in this country? Bet everyone would have a lot more disposable income for stimulatin'. Free stuff is great, when you're not the person paying for the free stuff.

2 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Cool, coo coo cooool. Do you feel the same about all loans, such as mortgages, business loans (falling on owners), etc? If we apply it to student loans we should apply it to all...except of course we don't because society would fall apart as no one would ever take out money for a business or home if they knew there was never any way to get out of it in a bad situation.

Yes, I'm cool cool cool with students/anyone having to pay back money they borrowed. I know this doesn't play well in Liberal Utopia, but I'm fine with the economy suffering whatever stimulation is lost from Joe Sociology Degree being out of the game for a while.

Is this the best way to structure a society - wantonly borrow money and if if turns out you made a mistake just expect your fellow taxpayers to bail you out?

Also, this is the wrong way to approach the problem. Forgiving the debt doesn't fix the tuition hikes and morally questionable federal loans that are being given out in the first place.

God forbid we reform the system and encourage people to borrow responsibly.

I’m fine with no one having their loans forgiven. You took out the loan. You pay it back. Seems pretty complicated. 

I rode my first ebike last week. Total game changer. It was incredible. If I lived in a city that had any discernible bicycling infrastructure I would immediately buy an ebike and use that to get around. Yes, I could ride a regular bicycle, but I can't show up disgustingly sweaty to work. Also, I am separated from work by 10 miles of 2 lane country highway. I would be killed the first day I tried to ride. Wish more cities would put in dedicated bike lanes (and bike highways linking nearby cities).

Fuck the female empowerment explanation -putting attractive women in bikinis is a good business model. The employees are there by choice. The customers are there by choice. There’s no nudity. Presumably no food safety issues. Why exactly can’t the offended parties just fuck off and not patronize these places?? Why can’t the business owners continue providing a product or service that’s in demand and is ostensibly not hurting anyone or anything?

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Okay, now it all makes sense, Williamson is another dipshit Oprah has unleashed on us.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/marianne-williamson-oprah-confidant-author-spiritual-teacher-presidential/story?id=60709204

Speaking of, Bill Maher is convinced Oprah is the only guaranteed victory against Trump.

I... might agree. 

3 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

Best answer for me Buttigieg on the South Bend police shooting, honest and vulnerable that he didn't get it done and never skirted the issue.

Same for me. I can't recall anyone else taking that tack in recent memory. Very refreshing.

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Williamson > Hickenlooper.

 

There.  I said it.

Oh, so you had that drink, huh? 

Joe's panic button has Obama's face painted on it.