Mobile Tim Apple v Tim Epic - update: Apple has terminated Epic’s developer account lololol

[Brian]

Epic begs for an injunction

[Keyser_Soze]

They sure like to point fingers at monopolies while attempting to create their own.

[Brian]

According to the injunction:

 

Quote

Epic says iOS is the biggest platform for Fortnite, too: 116 million registered users, or nearly a third of the 350 million registered users Epic says Fortnite has attracted in total. It also claims 63 percent of Fortnite users on iOS access Fortnite only on iOS, and that it’s the only way for many people to play the game.

 

[SimpleG]

I cant for the life of me figure out why they wouldnt continue to play by Apples rules and take them to court in the first place. Anything Apple did after that point would look like retaliation , instead they drop their pants , shit on the floor and scream "why you kicking me out Bro?"

[Keyser_Soze]

29 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

I cant for the life of me figure out why they wouldnt continue to play by Apples rules and take them to court in the first place. Anything Apple did after that point would look like retaliation , instead they drop their pants , shit on the floor and scream "why you kicking me out Bro?"

 

It was like: We want more money. Oh you stopped giving us money. Well we still want money! Please with the money?

[Brian]

In the real world, when one store makes a crappy decision about which products it stocks, it’s not a big deal - you just go to another store and buy it.

Under Apple’s monopoly, a decision not to carry a product is a death sentence to that product and shuts out all its iOS users.

— Tim Sweeney (@TimSweeneyEpic) September 4, 2020

[Brian]

Apple has brought counter claims against Epic Games, saying the company is in breach of contract and are seeking damages. Apple says Epic Games has earned over $600 Million from the app store https://t.co/Twmm9y4uOS

— Rod Breslau (@Slasher) September 8, 2020

[TwinIon]

Reading through the beginning of that filing, Apple is basically saying that they spent a lot of money running the app store, so Epic owes them, but also that if Epic ran their own app store that it would somehow be at Apple's expense. I feel like the argument that Apple deserves a cut of everything on the app store is somewhat at odds against the idea that Apple can't afford to let another store exist.

 

 

While I think that Epic winning would be better for consumers, and while I'm sympathetic to Epic's arguments, I also think Apple is still favored to win.

 

[Ghost_MH]

20 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Reading through the beginning of that filing, Apple is basically saying that they spent a lot of money running the app store, so Epic owes them, but also that if Epic ran their own app store that it would somehow be at Apple's expense. I feel like the argument that Apple deserves a cut of everything on the app store is somewhat at odds against the idea that Apple can't afford to let another store exist.

 

 

While I think that Epic winning would be better for consumers, and while I'm sympathetic to Epic's arguments, I also think Apple is still favored to win.

 

 

Apple's argument is that anything that uses their APIs contains Apple IP that they have the right to control. As such, anyone trying to sell software outside of Apple's control would be looking to distribute Apple's IP and profit from it.

 

I guess that's the argument for not allowing outside app stores, but it also runs counter to the argument that Apple has its own monopoly. That argument will have to hinge on Apple convincing the courts that their App Store competes with Google's and that there is no need for competition within iOS.

[Keyser_Soze]

Apple have good lawyers and Epic have Tim Sweeney. Who do you think will win?

[Ghost_MH]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Apple have good lawyers and Epic have Tim Sweeney. Who do you think will win?

 

It's not going to come down to who has the better lawyers on this one. It's going to come down to how courts want to treat these tech giants. This stuff has been milling about for years. I don't know if the US has the what it takes to try to take the big tech companies down a notch, but I'm sure Epic started this case with their eyes on Apple's issues aboard as well.

[Duderino]

17 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

It's not going to come down to who has the better lawyers on this one. It's going to come down to how courts want to treat these tech giants. This stuff has been milling about for years. I don't know if the US has the what it takes to try to take the big tech companies down a notch, but I'm sure Epic started this case with their eyes on Apple's issues aboard as well.

Agreed.  The best these Apple lawyers can hope for is minimizing the restrictions placed on Apple as a result of this lawsuit and others.

[Ghost_MH]

14 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Agreed.  The best these Apple lawyers can hope for is minimizing the restrictions placed on Apple as a result of this lawsuit and others.

 

And that's the thing right. Apple's best case here is that they win this case in the US and delay what will likely come in the EU from happening in the US.

 

Apple's best argument so far is that allowing other companies to sell applications outside their App Store is tantamount to those companies sharing Apple's IP in the form of APIs. That night even with for them in the EU. However, that argument had nothing to do with whether or not Apple can force companies to use their services for financial transactions. Apple needs to argue that they have to be the only app store on iOS to protect their IP, but it's a harder sell on in app payments when Apple already allows companies like Amazon and Uber process their own payments.

[TwinIon]

14 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Apple have good lawyers and Epic have Tim Sweeney. Who do you think will win?

I know this is a joke, but the lawyers representing Epic have won a number of big anti-trust cases. They've just been representing the monopolists until now. I imagine that means they really think they can win. Still, I agree with @Ghost_MH that much of this is going to depend on the court's willingness to both define the scope of the market.

 

If you define the market as iOS software distribution, it's really hard to argue that Apple doesn't have a monopoly. If you define the market as software distribution in general, it's really hard to argue that they do.

[Brian]

Apple has said that it will not let Epic Games re-apply to the Apple Developer Program for at least one year.

Epic Games did file a preliminary injunction last week to overturn this ban.

Assuming no changes, it's unlikely Fortnite returns to iOS before August 2021. pic.twitter.com/LChsKdhvHb

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) September 13, 2020

[Keyser_Soze]

Fortnite is dead. Everyone is into Among Us now.

[chakoo]

 

This was pretty obvious from the beginning but it's nice to see someone starting to cover this then the usual "Epic are idiots".

 

-edit-

If you want more proof apple does not give a fuck about devs, most app devs were not notified that apple was going to drop iOS14 tomorrow and the MC needed for submission wasn't released till today after their announcement. Usually there is a few weeks lead up to official launch.

[chakoo]

wow. Apple really pissed off a lot of iOS devs today. They pushed out updated tools this afternoon that are needed for submission which end up having a bug that did not allow people to push updates for review. A updated xcode to fix this bug was just released like 2 hours ago and devs are rushing to push apps for review in the hopes that they will get quick approval in time for tomorrow afternoon but with the way things are that probably won't happen and many will see their update take a few days for review. 

 

I would possibly avoid updating to iOS 14 for a few days. Some apps might be broken until the updated versions get through approval. 

[SimpleG]

Really surprised by this Judge , she is really on top of shit

http://threadreaderapp.com//favicon-16x16.png Thread by @PatrickMcGee_ on Thread Reader App

THREADREADERAPP.COM

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Thread by @PatrickMcGee_: Apple-Epic hearing started a few minutes early. “We are going to be hear for hours, I suspect,” says Judge Gonzales, who threatens to mute people if they regurgitate arguments she’s alread...…

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

This is what really stuck out for me today.

[SimpleG]

8 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

This is what really stuck out for me today.

I cant for the life me understand why Epic decided to go with a frat boy approach , I have to assume they thought that Apple would be swayed by the public and they would give in.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

8 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

I cant for the life me understand why Epic decided to go with a frat boy approach , I have to assume they thought that Apple would be swayed by the public and they would give in.

 

This was an unquestionably less-than-ideal day in court for Epic today.

[Ghost_MH]

So did Google hear the judge talk about how 30% was industry standard and decide that meant now was a good time to start cracking down on guys like Netflix and Spotify that weren't giving Google 30% of subscription fees?

 

Google announces crackdown on in-app billing, aimed at Netflix and Spotify

ARSTECHNICA.COM

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Google gives developers one year to stop ignoring its in-app billing rules.

 

[Keyser_Soze]

Thanks Epic!

[TwinIon]

34 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

So did Google hear the judge talk about how 30% was industry standard and decide that meant now was a good time to start cracking down on guys like Netflix and Spotify that weren't giving Google 30% of subscription fees?

 

Google announces crackdown on in-app billing, aimed at Netflix and Spotify

ARSTECHNICA.COM

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Google gives developers one year to stop ignoring its in-app billing rules.

 

My first thought that they should probably wait a bit longer to announce this kind of change, to see how this and other cases go, but I suppose Google thinks they're in a better position by allowing other app stores.

 

If the Android 12 changes to support alternative app stores do make those a much better experience, I think Google would be well insulated from the same attacks that face Apple.

[Brian]

This is Democrat led. Will be interesting to see to what extent Republicans support this

— James Clayton (@JamesClayton5) October 6, 2020

[Brian]

So, this is a political document (Democrat-led), and should be taken as such, but it is certainly interesting to see a major House committee declare effectively all current Big Tech companies as monopoly abusers in violation of antitrust laws. https://t.co/CoJwyZSbeq

— Richard Hoeg (@HoegLaw) October 6, 2020

[Ghost_MH]

16 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

 

This sounds about right. I certainly believe Apple's stance that distributing apps outside of their control to be a trademark violation of their APIs is crazy and monopolistic. The simple thing there would be to open iOS to other app stores.

 

Amazon is tricky, but also so large that they can sell loss leaders like nobody else in the online sales industry. Walmart can barely keep up with them, so I don't see how anyone else could possibly do the same. I just don't know how to combat that. You could split Amazon sales from AWS and force Amazon to survive on its open merit.

 

I've said before, Facebook should never have been allowed to buy Instagram and WhatsApp. Both entities should be split off of Facebook and allowed to offer competing services 

 

Google search is also tricky, but I think there are a couple of easy ways to combat this, even if they won't work. Splitting search into its own company would just force the new Google search company to double-down on everything that makes them a monopoly. It would probably be better to force Alphabet to no longer bid to keep Google search the default on platforms like iOS or browsers while also forcing Google to offer alternative search engines as the default in Android or Chrome. I don't know if it'll actually work, but it's likely the best you can do.

[Ghost_MH]

House: Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Google have “monopoly power,” should be split

ARSTECHNICA.COM

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Blockbuster report calls for beefing up enforcement and aiming for breakups.

 

 

Of relevance to this thread...

 

Quote

Apple controls about 45 percent of the US smartphone market and 20 percent of the global smartphone market, the committee found, and is projected to sell its 2 billionth iPhone in 2021. It is correct that, in the smartphone handset market, Apple is not a monopoly. Instead, iOS and Android hold an effective duopoly in mobile operating systems.

However, the report concludes, Apple does have a monopolistic hold over what you can do with an iPhone. You can only put apps on your phone through the Apple App Store, and Apple has total gatekeeper control over that App Store—that's what Epic is suing the company over.

That monopoly control allows Apple to "generate supra-normal profits" from the App Store, the report finds, and those profits have become a dramatically higher percentage of Apple's revenue over time, now generating billions more than the company spends annually to run the App Store.

Apple also ties its in-app payment system (IAP) to the app store in an anticompetitive way, the committee found. Citing internal Apple communications as well as testimony from the founders of ProtonMail and Hey, among others, the report finds "Apple has leveraged its power over the App Store to require developers to implement IAP or risk being thrown out of the App Store."

Using IAP raises costs for developers, several testified. For apps that compete directly against Apple's own first-party services, they said, paying Apple for the privilege of making less money doesn't make economic sense—that's the heart of Spotify's complaint against Apple. But developers also say they can't leave iOS, because although iPhone users are a minority of the market, they tend by and large to have more money and be bigger spenders than Android users. (Several of these developers joined together earlier this fall to launch a trade group pushing for Apple to lower its fees and untie the App Store from IAP.)

The committee found internal documents showing that company leadership, including former CEO Steve Jobs, "acknowledged that IAP requirement would stifle competition and limit the apps available to Apple's customers." The report concludes that Apple has also unfairly used its control over APIs, search rankings, and default apps to limit competitors' access to iPhone users.

 

I had completely forgotten about how Amazon figures out what popular among third party sellers and then make their own off brand version.

 

Let's see if anyone decides to do anything about this.

[ort]

Google is the most dangerous of all of these companies.

[Brian]

Microsoft is making moves to protect Xbox’s 30% by sacrificing it’s dead windows store

 

Microsoft hits out at Apple with its new Windows app store policies

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

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Microsoft joins the growing number calling for change at Apple.

 

[Keyser_Soze]

Microsoft store is full of so much garbage, here comes your chance to see even more garbage on it!

[Brian]

Microsoft told employees it plans to release a browser-based app for the Xbox Game Pass streaming service next year that will get around Apple App Store rules: 'We absolutely will end up on iOS'

WWW.BUSINESSINSIDER.COM

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Gaming boss Phil Spencer said that Microsoft is looking for ways to get around Apple App Store rules that have blocked Game Pass streaming on iPhone.

looking to use the same loophole as Amazon. 

Apple gonna 

[Keyser_Soze]

Except that's the thing I said they should do early in the thread and everyone jumped up my ass.

[TwinIon]

14 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Except that's the thing I said they should do early in the thread and everyone jumped up my ass.

There's a pretty big difference between pushing purchases to the web and running the entire thing as a web app.

 

21 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Microsoft is making moves to protect Xbox’s 30% by sacrificing it’s dead windows store

 

Microsoft hits out at Apple with its new Windows app store policies

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

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Microsoft joins the growing number calling for change at Apple.

 

Yeah, this is such an empty gesture. Here are all these rules we'll follow on a store no one uses or cares about, but we'd never consider applying these rules on our other app store. Though it would be interesting if all the sudden you could install a rival app store on the Xbox.