Mobile Tim Apple v Tim Epic - update: Apple has terminated Epic’s developer account lololol

[Brian]

As promised.https://t.co/MPg06l8HZS

— Richard Hoeg (@HoegLaw) October 10, 2020

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

In her decision, the judge fully recognized that the final decisions of this case could have significant implications for other "walled gardens".

 

Quote

Epic Games’ arguments distinguishing these other platforms as potential economic substitutes have not been sufficiently tested. First, Epic Games avers that the iOS market is distinct from other video game platforms because Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft do not make much profit, if any, on the sale of the hardware or console—unlike Apple, which allegedly makes significant profits from the sale of each iPhone. This distinction is without legal precedent under section 2 of the Sherman Act. Indeed, Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft all operate similar walled gardens or closed platform models as Apple, whereby the hardware, operating system, digital marketplace, and IAPs are all exclusive to the platform owner. As such, a final decision should be better informed regarding the impact of the walled garden model given the potential for significant and serious ramifications for Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft and their video game platforms.

 

Make no mistake about it: this ultimate outcome of this case could have VERY far-reaching consequences.

[Keyser_Soze]

Epic did it! You can be happy now that small developers that make less than one million dollars per year will have their cut down to 15% instead of 30%

 

Apple will reduce App Store cut to 15 percent for most developers starting January 1st

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

A substantial change to Apple’s longstanding App Store cut.

 

[TwinIon]

While I absolutely applaud Apple for cutting the rate to those developers that need it the most, in an odd way it does kind of show Apple's market power.

 

Typically you see companies reduce rates for the biggest draws. Preferential treatment for anchor tenants, bigger studio cuts for blockbuster films, etc. Here you have Apple in a position where they don't need to keep their best sellers happy, because those companies have no choice. Unless that company is in a position to use their market power against Apple (like Amazon), Apple has no need to cater to the apps that people use the most.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The war has moved to the European Union:

 

Epic Games files an antitrust complaint against Apple in Europe | PC Gamer

WWW.PCGAMER.COM

---

The complaint follows similar legal action in the US, UK, and Australia.

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Apple subpoenas Valve as part of its legal battle with Epic: Valve fights back | PC Gamer

WWW.PCGAMER.COM

---

These lawyers are getting steamed up.

 

Quote

"Apple’s Request 2 is very narrow. It simply requests documents sufficient to show Valve’s: (a) total yearly sales of apps and in-app products; (b) annual advertising revenues from Steam; (c) annual sales of external products attributable to Steam; (d) annual revenues from Steam; and (e) annual earnings (whether gross or net) from Steam. Apple has gone as far as requesting this information in any readily accessible format, but Valve refuses to produce it."

 

Quote

 

Now if you thought that demand from Apple was ballsy (and bear in mind Steam is a non-party to this main dispute) hold on to your hat, because Request 32 piles-on to demand documents showing:

 

"(a) the name of each App on Steam; (b) the date range when the App was available on Steam; and (c) the price of the App and any in-app product available on Steam."

 

 

Quote

 

Needless to say, Valve does not agree. Its counter-argument to the above says that Valve has co-operated to what it believes to be a reasonable extent—"Valve already produced documents regarding its revenue share, competition with Epic, Steam distribution contracts, and other documents"—before going on to outline the nature of Apple's requests: "that Valve (i) recreate six years’ worth of PC game and item sales for hundreds of third party video games, then (ii) produce a massive amount of confidential information about these games and Valve’s revenues."

 

In a masterpiece of understatement, Valve's legal counsel writes: "Apple wrongly claims those requests are narrow. They are not."

 

 

[dualhunter]

The real reason Valve doesn't want to get involved is that there are already 2 parties to the dispute and Valve doesn't do 3 

[TwinIon]

I suppose I can't blame Apple for trying, but they couldn't possibly have expected to get all that.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Apple has 'salted the Earth with subpoenas,' says judge, but orders Valve to hand over Steam data anyway | PC Gamer

WWW.PCGAMER.COM

---

Valve has until March 4 to comply.

 

[Ghost_MH]

18 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

Apple has 'salted the Earth with subpoenas,' says judge, but orders Valve to hand over Steam data anyway | PC Gamer

WWW.PCGAMER.COM

---

Valve has until March 4 to comply.

 

 

I totally get what Apple is trying to prove here, but didn't Valve adjust their cut with major publishers in response to all the rival game stores?

 

Valve’s new Steam revenue agreement gives more money to game developers

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

An unprecedented change to Valve’s financial agreement with game makers

 

 

[crispy4000]

31 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

I totally get what Apple is trying to prove here, but didn't Valve adjust their cut with major publishers in response to all the rival game stores?

 

Valve’s new Steam revenue agreement gives more money to game developers

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

An unprecedented change to Valve’s financial agreement with game makers

 

 

 

If you already make us boatloads of money, we can part with some of our profits.  But screw the little guy.

[Kal-El814]

Valve seems like it’s managed by a bunch of libertarians, so I’m sure they’ll well positioned for lawyers sniffing around... LUUUUUUL

[Ghost_MH]

37 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

If you already make us boatloads of money, we can part with some of our profits.  But screw the little guy.

 

Yes, but it's also only the ones that make boatloads of money that can launch their own storefront. That's why I'm kind of curious as to why Apple thinks Steam is proof competing storefronts didn't cause them to cut into their 30% cut.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Epic's legal battle against Apple is going to court | PC Gamer

WWW.PCGAMER.COM

---

Epic Games is suing Apple over "oppressive" App Store payment cuts.

 

Quote

 

Judge Gonzalez says the case is significant enough to warrant an in-person trial, believing witnesses are less likely to lie when sworn in in a physical courtroom. If COVID numbers remain high though, the trial will go ahead via Zoom.

 

Judge Gonzalez is hoping for the trial to last two to three weeks, but Epic wants to push the length to four to five weeks. There's no set timeframe yet though, to be determined when some of the finer details of the trial get ironed out.

 

 

[TwinIon]

Arizona is pushing a State bill that would prevent app store operators from forcing a specific payment system, at least for devs located in AZ.

[Keyser_Soze]

Epic Games Settlement - Submit a Claim Instructions

WWW.EPICLOOTBOXSETTLEMENT.COM

---

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

Looks like Epic is trying to argue that Apple's refusal to allow competing app stores isn't about customer safety, but also to prevent people from freely leaving the platform. Their evidence here are internal Apple emails discussing whether bringing iMessage to Android would lower consumer barriers to moving to Android.

 

Apple says iMessage on Android ‘will hurt us more than help us’

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

‘The #1 most difficult [reason] to leave the Apple universe app is iMessage.’

 

That's actually not a bad argument to make, especially when you have public statements from Apple saying they want stuff like Facetime and iMessage to be an industry standard and then have nonpublic statements saying that would be a bad idea because then people might move to Android. It's probably Epic's best argument, in regards to app store competition, so far.

[Ghost_MH]

Looks like Apple is now refusing the provide testimony in the Senate hearings on app store competition...

 

Apple refuses request to testify for Senate app store hearing

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

The hearing was set for later this month.

 

Apple likely feels nothing good can come from this that won't result in bad press while also believing this is all for show and Congress has no plans to do anything about their ap store practices. They're probably right here.

[TwinIon]

6 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

Looks like Epic is trying to argue that Apple's refusal to allow competing app stores isn't about customer safety, but also to prevent people from freely leaving the platform. Their evidence here are internal Apple emails discussing whether bringing iMessage to Android would lower consumer barriers to moving to Android.

 

Apple says iMessage on Android ‘will hurt us more than help us’

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

‘The #1 most difficult [reason] to leave the Apple universe app is iMessage.’

 

That's actually not a bad argument to make, especially when you have public statements from Apple saying they want stuff like Facetime and iMessage to be an industry standard and then have nonpublic statements saying that would be a bad idea because then people might move to Android. It's probably Epic's best argument, in regards to app store competition, so far.

 

I think this is still mostly just a PR campaign. In the end it really just matters how you define the market and if you can sufficiently differentiate iOS from other digital marketplaces like Xbox/Playstation/etc.

 

If you can define the market as "iPhone app stores" and not "digital marketplaces," and you can sufficiently make the general computing environment case, it's easy enough to make a clear anti-trust argument. If you can't, something like keeping iMessage to yourself is just good business. You have a feature that people really like and will keep them buying your products, and putting that feature on competing devices might hurt your market share? Well shucks, what's a good profit seeking business to do?

 

Honestly, something I'd find far more damning is if they can dig something up about Apple's stance on RCS. If Apple plans to avoid implementing a new messaging standard that would be an indisputable customer good because they're worried it might lessen iMessage as a lock in mechanism, that would be anti-competitive, though largely unrelated to Epic's point.

[SimpleG]

3 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

Looks like Apple is now refusing the provide testimony in the Senate hearings on app store competition...

 

Apple refuses request to testify for Senate app store hearing

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

The hearing was set for later this month.

 

Apple likely feels nothing good can come from this that won't result in bad press while also believing this is all for show and Congress has no plans to do anything about their ap store practices. They're probably right here.

These hearings are so cringe inducing bad. The lack of basic tech understanding from people who are helping run a country is awe inducing.

 

[Keyser_Soze]

Steve King was very upset that google allowed his name to come up when his nephew searched for white shitheads (or whatever it was)

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[SimpleG]

16 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Not sure how Apple will use this other then to point towards Sweeney idiocy.

[Ghost_MH]

19 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Not sure how Apple will use this other then to point towards Sweeney idiocy.

 

Apple is going to argue that Epic knew they were breaking a legally binding contract.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

41 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Apple is going to argue that Epic knew they were breaking a legally binding contract.

 

That pretty much summarizes the entirety of Apple's case - they really don't have to argue anything further beyond that.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The fact of the matter is that a ruling against Apple would have SIGNIFICANT ramifications far beyond the actual case itself as it could potentially cause upheaval in the realm of contract law.

 

Contracts can be voided if the meet certain conditions (fraud, undue influence, etc.), but absolutely none of that criteria even remotely applies to this situation.  Epic would be on much firmer legal ground if they sued Apple for anti-competitive market practices while adhering to the terms of the contract they had agreed to.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

In "No shit, really?" news...

Fortnite’s cash cow is PlayStation, not iOS, court documents reveal

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

Console players bring in a lot of money for Fortnite.

 

 

But in FAR more interesting news...

Fortnite isn’t on Microsoft’s Xbox Cloud Gaming service because Epic won’t allow it

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

It’s all about competition in the PC gaming space.

 

[Brian]

 

[Ghost_MH]

3 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

 

 

There is 0% chance Apple doesn't know how much they made for their commission from the App Store or how much it costs to run/support. If they don't have that information readily available then it's because they've purposefully decided obfuscating the data is in their best interests.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[ThreePi]

10 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

 

I don't get why in 2021, in the wake of widespread work from home policies because of the pandemic, we still have audio that sounds like someone recorded it on cassette and then played it back over a phone line.

[Ghost_MH]

14 minutes ago, ThreePi said:

I don't get why in 2021, in the wake of widespread work from home policies because of the pandemic, we still have audio that sounds like someone recorded it on cassette and then played it back over a phone line.

 

Because audio encoding still kind of sucks because most people just don't care. Just think about how great phone screens have gotten while phone speakers are still pretty shitty.

[Brian]

Lolololo 

[Brian]

 

[crispy4000]

 

1 hour ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Lolololo 

 

Damn that makes Epic look bad.  We already know they act like toddlers, but this a new low.  "I can't think of a scenario where Epic doesn't get what we want." "Your license to use UE4 expires in May."

 

That's some fuckery.