Mobile Tim Apple v Tim Epic - update: Apple has terminated Epic’s developer account lololol

[Ghost_MH]

I'm also sure this move will go over well with the EU's antitrust probe into Apple.

[Kal-El814]

Tencent owns what, 40% of Epic? Apple does most of their manufacturing in China. Google and China don't get along all that well. Everything about this feels so inbred.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

7 minutes ago, chakoo said:

Pretty much on the nose. Epic isn't in this for a better % on appstore. They want to establish precedent so they can push for epic store on other platforms. 

 

If Apple had left things at only kicking Fortnite off the AppStore, then Epic's claims rest on more tenuous ground.

 

But by choosing to essentially go "thermonuclear" with today's actions, Apple has effectively argued the case that Epic's attorneys were going to make for them.

[Moa]

It's kind of beside the point but I'm impressed how many people have talked themselves into taking Apple's side on this. I feel like a large number of these people are just holding Fortnite's success with younger gamers against Epic and knee jerk reacting against them. 

[chakoo]

2 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Tencent owns what, 40% of Epic? Apple does most of their manufacturing in China. Google and China don't get along all that well. Everything about this feels so inbred.

Chinese handsets do well in china and china is working on their own android replacement in the process. 

 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

If Apple had left things at only kicking Fortnite off the AppStore, then Epic's claims rest on more tenuous ground.

 

But by choosing to essentially go "thermonuclear" with today's actions, Apple has effectively argued the case that Epic's attorneys were going to make for them.

Yep, Apple is really making awful predictable choices that Epic was counting on. 

[ort]

Apparently Microsoft and Sony also take a 30% cut when you buy stuff on their consoles.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Moa said:

It's kind of beside the point but I'm impressed how many people have talked themselves into taking Apple's side on this. I feel like a large number of these people are just holding Fortnite's success with younger gamers against Epic and knee jerk reacting against them. 

 

That's definitely the prevailing sentiment over at ResetERA

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, ort said:

Apparently Microsoft and Sony also take a 30% cut when you buy stuff on their consoles.

 

EVERYONE does -- Google, Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Valve, etc. -- its the industry standard!

[chakoo]

Just now, ort said:

Apparently Microsoft and Sony also take a 30% cut when you buy stuff on their consoles.

They take a near equal cut but also have given some liberties to Major publishers over the years that works in both parties favor. Apple is instead is doing "My way or no way".

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, chakoo said:

They take a near equal cut but also have given some liberties to Major publishers over the years that works in both parties favor. Apple is instead is doing "My way or no way".

 

For Valve:

Quote

“Starting from October 1, 2018 (i.e. revenues prior to that date are not included), when a game makes over $10 million on Steam, the revenue share for that application will adjust to 75 percent/25 percent on earnings beyond $10 million,” Valve wrote in the official blog post. “At $50 million, the revenue share will adjust to 80 percent/20 percent on earnings beyond $50 million. Revenue includes game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees. Our hope is this change will reward the positive network effects generated by developers of big games, further aligning their interests with Steam and the community.”

 

[Spork3245]

I joined YouTube Premium via my iPhone and it was costing me $17/month. I recently realized if I cancel and join on YouTube.com through my desktop it’s $12/month, using my fiancé’s student email it’s $7/month.

I guess what I’m saying is “fuck Apple”.

[ort]

3 hours ago, chakoo said:

Oooff. That is a terrible move and will play more in Epics favor in the legal battle. Apple really should walk this one back (they won't and will get hit for it).

 

They did violate the terms of service on their developer accounts. They signed into the agreement when they became developers on Apple's platform using Apples tools. I mean, they had to know this would happen. This couldn't have been a surprise. Apple did it to facebook a few years ago to when they were pulling some shennanigans.

[chakoo]

3 minutes ago, ort said:

They did violate the terms of service on their developer accounts. They signed into the agreement when they became developers on Apple's platform using Apples tools. I mean, they had to know this would happen. This couldn't have been a surprise. Apple did it to facebook a few years ago to when they were pulling some shennanigans.

I'm an app developer. I know the Apple terms. It doesn't matter for the fact that Apple is making this worse for themselves and doing what Epic was hoping would happen to bolster their case.

 

The FB/MS enterprise certs is of a different matter. 

[Moa]

58 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

 

That's definitely the prevailing sentiment over at ResetERA

 

Maybe I'm just a millennial boomer, but back in my day we hated on Apple. 

[Keyser_Soze]

I think there are a lot more Apple fans than Fortnite fans.

[Ghost_MH]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

I think there are a lot more Apple fans than Fortnite fans.

 

Probably, but that doesn't really matter if Apple is just going to prove Epic's point for them.

[crispy4000]

3 hours ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

 

If Apple had left things at only kicking Fortnite off the AppStore, then Epic's claims rest on more tenuous ground.

 

But by choosing to essentially go "thermonuclear" with today's actions, Apple has effectively argued the case that Epic's attorneys were going to make for them.

Yup. Apple saying that Epic can’t even develop tools for other studios to use on their platform changes everything.

 

I don’t think this was Epic’s stroke of genius.  They were poking at a hornet’s nest like a dumb little kid.  But now it’s time for pest control.

I’m more interested to see if things generally get better or worse after this.  If the courts rule Apple can’t close their platform, there will be far reaching implications.

[Keyser_Soze]

In today's political climate Apple will win this.

[Ghost_MH]

52 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

In today's political climate Apple will win this.

 

If you don't think this is going to come up in the EU's antitrust probe, then I don't know what to say. Before this, it would have been only a single point on a larger presentation. Apple choosing to kill off Epic's support of UE on iOS and macOS is something else. I'm not even thinking about gaming here. I'm thinking about the number of developers using Macs to develop UE games that are now going to lose their support.

[Keyser_Soze]

And Epic games killed Linux support for their games store, even games that previously had Linux support like Rocket League. They are trash too.

[Ghost_MH]

6 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

And Epic games killed Linux support for their games store, even games that previously had Linux support like Rocket League. They are trash too.

 

Yes. Yeah. Everyone here knows that.

 

What's the worst case scenario in the case that Epic gets everything they want out of this lawsuit? They can offer a store front on iOS like they do on Android. They can use their own payment provider for in app purchases the way they do on PC, all the consoles, and the non-Google Play version of Fortnite. Every other developer gets those same perks.

 

Yeah, Epic is going into this purely because they want to make more money, but so what? Why did that matter? Why did it even matter that they're an asshole of a company that steals TikTokers dances and make money off of it? None of that stuff is relevant if there is a chance that some good can come to all the smaller mobile devs out there.

[Keyser_Soze]

7 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 None of that stuff is relevant if there is a chance that some good can come to all the smaller mobile devs out there.

 

None of this money is going to devs. It's going to the publishers.

 

Remember when Borderlands 3 came out and none of the devs saw this supposed extra money that was supposed to be coming their way because  they cut these deals with Epic?

[crispy4000]

23 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Yes. Yeah. Everyone here knows that.

 

What's the worst case scenario in the case that Epic gets everything they want out of this lawsuit? They can offer a store front on iOS like they do on Android. They can use their own payment provider for in app purchases the way they do on PC, all the consoles, and the non-Google Play version of Fortnite. Every other developer gets those same perks.

 

Yeah, Epic is going into this purely because they want to make more money, but so what? Why did that matter? Why did it even matter that they're an asshole of a company that steals TikTokers dances and make money off of it? None of that stuff is relevant if there is a chance that some good can come to all the smaller mobile devs out there.

 

Are you claiming that the consoles don't get an equivalent royalty cut of Fortnite transactions?  It's the same cut there as with the iOS/Android versions that were removed.

 

Quote

The legal case could take an extended period to resolve, and particularly if Epic is successful, some are wondering whether it could target Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo next, given they also take a comparable cut of game sales through their platforms. There's an argument to be made that those systems are not equivalent to more general-purpose computers or mobile devices, but these are complex legal issues.

 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/fortnite-ios-android-ban-and-epics-apple-google-la/1100-6480913/

[Ghost_MH]

26 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

None of this money is going to devs. It's going to the publishers.

 

Remember when Borderlands 3 came out and none of the devs saw this supposed extra money that was supposed to be coming their way because  they cut these deals with Epic?

 

I'm talking about other devs that have nothing to do with Epic or even other publishers. There are small devs that self publish games on the Apple and Google Play app stores. Those devs would love to keep more of their own money if there were competition in the financial transaction department. Half of the games on my phone right now are indie games not from any large publisher.

 

21 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Are you claiming that the consoles don't get an equivalent royalty cut of Fortnite transactions?  It's the same cut there as with the iOS/Android versions that were removed.

 

 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/fortnite-ios-android-ban-and-epics-apple-google-la/1100-6480913/

 

That's Epic's claim.

 

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-fortnite-mega-drop-permanent-discounts-up-to-20-percent

 

Quote

The Fortnite Mega Drop is here! Get up to 20% savings on V-Bucks and real-money offers for every purchase on PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch, PC, and Mac, and on mobile when using select payment methods.

 

They could be lying here, but the console matters have usually cut good deals for other companies in the past on an individual basis. They could be lying here, though, and taking the hit on console v-bucks to stick it to Google and Apple. Epic forced Nintendo to allow them to do voice chat without the phone app on Switch, so they can and have made demands to at least Nintendo that Nintendo hasn't given in to anyone else.

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

That's Epic's claim.

 

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/the-fortnite-mega-drop-permanent-discounts-up-to-20-percent

 

They could be lying here, but the console matters have usually cut good deals for other companies in the past on an individual basis. They could be lying here, though, and taking the hit on console v-bucks to stick it to Google and Apple. Epic forced Nintendo to allow them to do voice chat without the phone app on Switch, so they can and have made demands to at least Nintendo that Nintendo hasn't given in to anyone else.

Nothing in that link, or quote, says that the console manufacturers aren’t charging them similar royalties (which they do).  A price drop does not imply a smaller royalty percentage cut.  You’re reading that into it.  
 

This was always planned as a coordinated strike against Apple (and Google to a lesser extent).  They have a better shot taking them on, since phones are more ubiquitous devices and big tech conglomerates are in the hot seat.

[TwinIon]

Epic's complaints against Google and Apple don't apply to the console makers because (in Epic's words), console makers are not "general computer platforms." Console makers have a long history of working with and supporting game development, marketing and distribution. The playing field there is entirely different from a general purpose computing platform. 

 

Also, the console makers apply their rules in a much more even handed way. With Apple and Google, it's easy to point at any number of apps and ask why that is allowed, but it's not allowed in games. Why can you use your credit card to directly pay for anything in the Amazon app, but not in Fortnight? Why is Netflix allowed to stream everything, but xCloud isn't? Those kinds of differences are far fewer with Consoles.

 

Now, you can buy into that logic or not, but that's more or less what Epic is arguing. I think it's largely about them not wanting to fight more battles than they have to, and also that they don't think they can win. The power that Google and Apple wield is so much more than Sony or Nintendo. Even MS isn't nearly as scary as they used to be.

[crispy4000]

9 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Epic's complaints against Google and Apple don't apply to the console makers because (in Epic's words), console makers are not "general computer platforms." Console makers have a long history of working with and supporting game development, marketing and distribution. The playing field there is entirely different from a general purpose computing platform. 

 

Also, the console makers apply their rules in a much more even handed way. With Apple and Google, it's easy to point at any number of apps and ask why that is allowed, but it's not allowed in games. Why can you use your credit card to directly pay for anything in the Amazon app, but not in Fortnight? Why is Netflix allowed to stream everything, but xCloud isn't? Those kinds of differences are far fewer with Consoles.

 

Now, you can buy into that logic or not, but that's more or less what Epic is arguing. I think it's largely about them not wanting to fight more battles than they have to, and also that they don't think they can win. The power that Google and Apple wield is so much more than Sony or Nintendo. Even MS isn't nearly as scary as they used to be.

 

This is correct.  I'll add that console manufacturers also rely on royalties to subsidize the cost of their machines.  Epic knows this, and doesn't want to burst their bubble and see dedicated gaming hardware prices skyrocket.

 

Until they want to get into hardware themselves, that 30% cut on consoles isn't their beef.

[Keyser_Soze]

Also, Epic is super buddy buddy with PS5 since they are talking all nice about each other they wouldn't dare say something bad about a console!

[crispy4000]

16 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Also, Epic is super buddy buddy with PS5 since they are talking all nice about each other they wouldn't dare say something bad about a console!

 

Apparently not buddy buddy enough to have timed exclusivity of their PC ports on EGS.  I wouldn't call Sony holding out for so long on Fortnite crossplay a chummy maneuver either.

 

Reality is, Epic has more leverage over the console manufactures than any other outside studio or publisher.  We already know they'll be pushing for universal cross-platform DLC ownership next.

[Keyser_Soze]

36 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

We already know they'll be pushing for universal cross-platform DLC ownership next.

 

That seems like something a regular person would want not a company that wants more of your money.

 

36 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Apparently not buddy buddy enough to have timed exclusivity of their PC ports on EGS.

 

Quantic Dream games don't count?

 

36 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 I wouldn't call Sony holding out for so long on Fortnite crossplay a chummy maneuver either.

 

Key word being "PS5" meaning NOW they are chummy.

[crispy4000]

48 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

That seems like something a regular person would want not a company that wants more of your money.

It also sounds like something a company pushing a massive F2P game and fledgling PC store would want.

 

48 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Quantic Dream games don't count?

They’re a multiplatform studio now, and own publishing rights to their IP like IO interactive afaik.
 

48 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Key word being "PS5" meaning NOW they are chummy.

Yeah, I know that’s where you were going with it.  They’re not going to say bad things about them, but they won’t do the same for Microsoft either.  Try to catch them talking bad about Series S.

 

They’ll only shit on platforms they wouldn’t port the latest UE version to.

[Ghost_MH]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:49 AM, crispy4000 said:

 

Apparently not buddy buddy enough to have timed exclusivity of their PC ports on EGS.  I wouldn't call Sony holding out for so long on Fortnite crossplay a chummy maneuver either.

 

Reality is, Epic has more leverage over the console manufactures than any other outside studio or publisher.  We already know they'll be pushing for universal cross-platform DLC ownership next.

 

Every major publisher has more leverage on console manufacturers than they do on PC or mobile. Steam has a near monopoly on PC game sales. Google has a near monopoly on game sales on Android. Apple had a complete monopoly on game sales for iOS. The console manufacturers still rely very heavily on retail while also directly competing each other. If you don't think retail is as big as it used to be, look at every Nintendo game that tops the sales chart and remember that doesn't include digital sales. If you don't think they're actually competing with each other then you don't know why they even bother with buying up exclusives. Not you, specifically, but you know what I mean.

 

A large portion of console game sales are controlled by Walmart and Amazon, outside of the console manufacturers hands. Apple would have a very different relationship with publishers if half of their app sales were controlled Walmart and Amazon.

[crispy4000]

48 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Every major publisher has more leverage on console manufacturers than they do on PC or mobile. Steam has a near monopoly on PC game sales. Google has a near monopoly on game sales on Android. Apple had a complete monopoly on game sales for iOS. The console manufacturers still rely very heavily on retail while also directly competing each other. If you don't think retail is as big as it used to be, look at every Nintendo game that tops the sales chart and remember that doesn't include digital sales. If you don't think they're actually competing with each other then you don't know why they even bother with buying up exclusives. Not you, specifically, but you know what I mean.

 

A large portion of console game sales are controlled by Walmart and Amazon, outside of the console manufacturers hands. Apple would have a very different relationship with publishers if half of their app sales were controlled Walmart and Amazon.

My point was that Epic controls the game engine a giant portion of the industry uses (including the console manufactures many cases), and has the biggest F2P game in the world.  They're in a position to push for demands, as they did with Fortnite cross-play.  And as they're trying now with Apple, with new demands.

[Ghost_MH]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

My point was that Epic controls the game engine a giant portion of the industry uses (including the console manufactures many cases), and has the biggest F2P game in the world.  They're in a position to push for demands, as they did with Fortnite cross-play.  And as they're trying now with Apple, with new demands.

 

Well, yes. Epic was probably the only company that could get cross play working on PlayStations.

 

That said, Epic doesn't have much away with Apple or Google. Fortnite profit didn't equal to much compared to what Apple would lose if they got less than a 30% cut. This isn't just about games for Apple, where as it is just about games for Sony.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]