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Halo Infinite - Information Thread, update (01/15/24): Certain Affinity's battle royale project reportedly cancelled, UE5-based campaign project in development since 2022


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18 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

But why would it be used to hide texture detail from that distance?  

 

Because it’s a blurry n64 level texture at that distance.

 

18 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Also, distance haze is a thing IRL. 


I never said it wasn’t.

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4 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Fog’s got nothing to do with that.


Except, it, erm... does. Zoom in on the mountains in the days gone image. It’s basically a single large low-res texture. The fog is to help blend it so it’s not noticeable.

Texture LODs are a “thing” due to memory limitations first and foremost.

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11 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:


Except, it, erm... does. Zoom in on the mountains in the days gone image. It’s basically a single large low-res texture. The fog is to help blend it so it’s not noticeable.


These are white snow capped mountains.  It wouldn’t be noticeable anyways at that distance.  There is a shadow from the cloud on the most distant one though. ;) 

 

11 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Texture LODs are a “thing” due to memory limitations first and foremost.


Yes for the current gen, but that’s not the full story either.  We’ll still see plenty of next-gen games show restraint in background detail to dial up other effects elsewhere.

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Just now, crispy4000 said:


These are white snow capped mountains.  It wouldn’t be noticeable anyways.

 

Except it *gasp* is :o 

 

Just now, crispy4000 said:

 

There is a shadow from the cloud on the most distant one though. ;) 


 


Shadows have LOD too.

 

Just now, crispy4000 said:


Yes for the current gen


Wow. That’s literally what I stated. What point are you attempting to make?

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9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Except it *gasp* is :o 

 


I though you said the fog hid it. ;)

 

9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Shadows have LOD too.


That’s a screen space shadow. :p

 

9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Wow. That’s literally what I stated. What point are you attempting to make?

 

The words you omitted.

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days-gone-44wjkh.jpg

 

Look at those high-res textures! Would totally look just as good without the fog to hide the lower detail due from hardware limitations!

 

What are you even arguing against here? That the fog isn't an effect used to help mask lower detail objects in the distance?

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Here's a non-overly compressed screen:

 

Days-Gone-Review-06.jpg

 

You can see the lower quality textures and lower detail where I circled. The fog that's there isn't for atmosphere, without it (if it were as clear as what's closer to the camera) it would be more apparent and arguably distracting during gameplay. Fog can certainly be used for atmosphere, but that's not what's going on here.

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3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:


No, in Days Gone that’s literally being used to hide the change in LOD and mask the lower details and blurred textures. Go outside on a clear day, look into the distance, does fog magically appear after a certain point (when you’re not in mountain ranges ridiculously above sea level)? :p 
I’m not stating that fog shouldn’t be used to set atmosphere, but in 100% clear weather, when it’s only in the distance, that’s a graphical trick to hide draw distance changes. It’s the same that was used in Turok on N64, just further away.

Water moisture exists in the air even on the clearest days. Light refraction limits how well the human eye can make out distant objects, and in certain conditions can result in a mirage.

 

Yes, distant textures, objects, and even shadows in both Days Gone and Halo infinite have levels of detail that can pop and look poor when zoomed in.  The more present atmospheric blur in DG is not enough to cover that up, but it does help represent a natural phenomenon.

 

This is far from Turok 64 type situation.  Geometry, tree cards, and especially shadows in DG extend far into the distance.  Further than say HZD, that I would agree does rely on thick distant haze to hide shadow draw distances in particular.  Halo Infinite has similar artifacts on display but I don’t think a blanket of fog is what is required here. Just a subtle increase to the distant blur to help the environment look more like a local in a world.

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1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

days-gone-44wjkh.jpg

 

Look at those high-res textures! Would totally look just as good without the fog to hide the lower detail due from hardware limitations!

 

What are you even arguing against here? That the fog isn't an effect used to mask lower detail objects in the distance?

 

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

Here's a non-overly compressed screen:

 

Days-Gone-Review-06.jpg

 

You can see the lower quality textures and lower detail where I circled. The fog that's there isn't for atmosphere, without it (if it were as clear as what's closer to the camera) it would be more apparent and arguably distracting during gameplay. Fog can certainly be used for atmosphere, but that's not what's going on here.


1st is a zoomed in screen grab of a larger image without direct enough lighting to show texture detail.  Poor compression too, as you implied.
2nd is a 720p screenshot.  Sure, you could use that to pick at things.  But why would you choose to go with that when there are legitimate PS4 Pro shots available?

973962-days-gone-playqike9.jpg

You must be thinking I'm arguing that LODs aren't a thing, or something wild.  I just believe that the further the background goes, the less higher quality assets/lighting/textures/etc matter.  You can get away with plenty this gen with background detail without copious amounts of fog and blur.

That screenshot, to me, on my 4k TV, looks great.  You can still see some lower resolution assets in the mid-far ground if viewed fullscreen.  They're not "hidden" by some blanket of fog or blur, even though there is clearly some applied.  But it doesn't really matter all that much when the LOD levels appear to be scaled very well for a current gen game.  I think the applied effects add to the aesthetic more than they would cover for anything.  The blemishes aren't that bad anyways viewed at 4K proper, as opposed to zoomed in for scrutiny.

If you disagree, fine.  You do you.

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33 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 


1st is a zoomed in screen grab of a larger image without direct enough lighting to show texture detail.

 

It's not zoomed it, it's a crop of the image previously posted ITT.

 

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2nd is a 720p screenshot.  Sure, you could use that to pick at things.  But why would you choose to go with that when there are legitimate PS4 Pro shots available?

973962-days-gone-playqike9.jpg

 

 

 

 

Thanks:

973962-days-gone-playqike9.jpg

My image was also from 4k rendered on PS4 Pro, postimg just resizes.

 

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You must be thinking I'm arguing that LODs aren't a thing, or something wild. 

 

I don't think that at all. I think you have no idea what I'm stating and are attempting to make a completely different argument.

 

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I just believe that the further the background goes, the less high quality assets/lighting/textures/etc matter.  You can get away with plenty this gen without copious amounts of fog and blur as is.

 

I never said it was copious, especially not in Days Gone, but it still exists. It's mostly absent in Halo Infinite because it doesn't need to use it (*as much*). That's all I ever stated.

 

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That screenshot, to me, on my 4k TV, looks great.  You can still see some lower resolution assets in the mid-far ground if viewed fullscreen.  They're not "hidden" by some blanket of fog or blur, even though there is clearly some applied.  But it doesn't really matter all that much when the LOD levels appear to be scaled very well for a current gen game.  I think the applied effects add to the aesthetic more than they would cover for anything.  The blemishes don't seem that bad anyways viewed at 4K proper.

 

 

What I circled has the same "fog" applied to it that's being argued as being "used for atmosphere" (I'm stating it's being used more-so to hide/mask lower quality assets). Fog doesn't act like that in real life - it's generally not a uniform white nothingness that appears exactly at X amount of distance that slowly consumes distant objects. Look at games with levels where fog is actually being used for atmosphere specifically.

 

36 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Water moisture exists in the air even on the clearest days. Light refraction limits how well the human eye can make out distant objects, and in certain conditions can result in a mirage.

 

I never said this doesn't exist.

 

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Yes, distant textures, objects, and even shadows in both Days Gone and Halo infinite have levels of detail that can pop and look poor when zoomed in.

 

I didn't zoom in. That's how it looks, I only cropped the screen from full resolution unless MS Picture Viewer did something funky without my knowledge.

 

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 The more present atmospheric blur in DG is not enough to cover that up 

 

That's it's entire purpose. To (partially) hide the lower resolution assets being used at a distance.

 

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but it does help represent a natural phenomenon.

 

Not really. Fog doesn't present itself in a uniform way at X distance like used in these examples within video games.

 

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This is far from Turok 64 type situation.

 

It's the same trick being used on a smaller scale. The Turok example was purposely hyperbolic.

 

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 Geometry, tree cards, and especially shadows in DG extend far into the distance.

 

And have diminished LOD which the fog effect is used to mask.

 

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 Further than say HZD, that I would agree does rely on thick distant haze to hide shadow draw distances in particular.  

 

And textures.

 

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Halo Infinite has similar artifacts on display but I don’t think a blanket of fog is what is required here. Just a subtle increase to the distant blur to help the environment look more like a local in a world.

 

I never stated that Halo Infinite didn't have LOD or pop-in, I said it's draw distance was "infinite" (using infinite in a non-literal and half-joking sense, of course). The fog in Days Gone, however, is used to have an "end" of things needed to be loaded into memory. It does not look natural in the sense of "IRL", however, Halo's looking "unnatural" is more likely due to having become used to this trick being used in the same way at the same distances for 15 years now. :p  SSDs and their ability to quickly load new assets is the only reason this can now (finally) change - I remember seeing that current console and PC games running from HDDs need roughly ~4-seconds of data present in the RAM/VRAM, with SSDs, this now drops to something like ~1-second.

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9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I never said it was copious, especially not in Days Gone, but it still exists. It's mostly absent in Halo Infinite because it doesn't need to use it. That's all I ever stated.

 

Well, nothing needs to use it.  But I could still pick out worse LOD examples in the Halo Infinite shots than what you circled in DG.  And it's not just because there isn't as (much) blur to hide it.

If you think it's an effective trick to hide blemishes, shouldn't you be advocating for it in this case, for Halo?

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19 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Well, nothing needs to use it.  But I could still pick out worse LOD examples in the Halo Infinite shots than what you circled in DG.  And it's not just because there isn't as (much) blur to hide it.

 

I only watched the trailer once but remember seeing some of the farthest reaching draw distance I've seen in a long time. Especially with enemy units. It was the only thing that impressed me from a graphical stand point.

 

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If you think it's an effective trick to hide blemishes, shouldn't you be advocating for it in this case, for Halo?

 

I don't believe I said they shouldn't use it for Halo. I stated that it's not used for atmosphere in current gen games.

 

EDIT: BTW, the still screens of Halo Infinite look like utter garbage. I'm also purely referencing the in-motion demo that was shown. It probably matters that I clarify this :p 

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This is getting silly now, especially when you consider Halo Infinite has similar LOD artifacts to Days Gone that persist despite the hardware.

Lets remove the LOD quality from the equation (it's moot anyways) and just focus on what a subtle amount of distant grain/blur can do to give a better sense of scale and place:

Unreal_Engine_5_18.png
3712379-halo-infiniteg4jne.png

Too bad a 1:1 comparison doesn't exist, but this should be enough to clarify my point.  Halo's world rendering could look less flat with some additional subtle depth cues.
 

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46 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I only watched the trailer once but remember seeing some of the longest draw distance I've seen in a long time. Especially with enemy units. It was the only thing that impressed me from a graphical stand point.

 

Huh, enemies on-screen aren't that far away from you in the demo.  I thought they did a better job with the aesthetic and weapon feedback than anything else.  It looks thoroughly Halo in that regard, in a good way.  Feels like a callback.

One thing I will say is that those draw distances would be mighty impressive on the S if they can get them close to that at 60fps.  Could give MGS5 a run for its money in that.

 

46 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I didn't say they shouldn't use it for Halo. I stated that it's not used for atmosphere in current gen games.

 

RDR2 says hi.  Of course some games are dialing it up for aesthetic reasons too.  And for mimicking natural phenomenon.

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I’m confused by Spork’s point here because...that’s exactly what the real world looks like to me. Things in the distance do have a haze that falls off when you get closer.

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11 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I’m confused by Spork’s point here because...that’s exactly what the real world looks like to me. Things in the distance do have a haze that falls off when you get closer.

 

But the screenshot does have a haze to it, just closer to what real life haze would look like

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

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37 minutes ago, Duderino said:

This is getting silly now, especially when you consider Halo Infinite has similar LOD artifacts to Days Gone that persist despite the hardware.

Lets remove the LOD quality from the equation (it's moot anyways) and just focus on what a subtle amount of distant grain/blur can do to give a better sense of scale and place:

Unreal_Engine_5_18.png
3712379-halo-infiniteg4jne.png

Too bad a 1:1 comparison doesn't exist, but this should be enough to clarify my point.  Halo's world rendering could look less flat with some additional subtle depth cues.
 

 

57 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

EDIT: BTW, the still screens of Halo Infinite look like utter garbage. I'm also purely referencing the in-motion demo that was shown. It probably matters that I clarify this :p 

 

And let's be clear here, I never once said that Halo Infinite looks visually impressive. The geometry alone is pure trash. :p 

 

36 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Huh, enemies on-screen aren't that far away from you in the demo.  I thought they did a better job with the aesthetic and weapon feedback than anything else.  It looks thoroughly Halo in that regard, in a good way.  Feels like a callback.

 

I remember what I thought was a grunt waaaaaaay off in the distance at some point in the demo, it was like a spec walking around. Maybe I'm misremembering or it was something else, though :confused: 

 

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One thing I will say is that those draw distances would be mighty impressive on the S if they can get them close to that at 60fps.  Could give MGS5 a run for its money in that.

 

What do you mean? Are you talking about the Xbox One S? Or is that weak Series X also called "S"? I have not been keeping up with the stupid names for this console :lol: 

 

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RDR2 says hi. 

 

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

Look at games with levels where fog is actually being used for atmosphere specifically.

 

Herp derp? :p 

 

29 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I’m confused by Spork’s point here because...that’s exactly what the real world looks like to me. Things in the distance do have a haze that falls off when you get closer.

 

I'm referencing how early it comes in and the way it's uniform being used to hide diminished LOD in the distance as a "graphical trick" and not for the purpose of "atmosphere". Eventually, yes, of course there would be haze. (In regards to games) This isn't volumetric fog we're talking about.

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5 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

Go outside on a clear day, look into the distance, does fog magically appear after a certain point (when you’re not in mountain ranges ridiculously above sea level)?


You said this, which it is true it doesn’t MAGICALLY do so, it certainly visually does so and it is directly connected to distance.

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19 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I'm referencing how early it comes in and the way it's uniform being used to hide diminished LOD in the distance as a "graphical trick" and not for the purpose of "atmosphere". Eventually, yes, of course there would be haze.


Just using the natural world as a reference, I'd agree with @Duderino that it should probably have more of it than Halo does now. 

 

hiker-in-valleywebrbkze.jpg

 

Most games are actually pretty good about this, I think.  It's more the visible layers of fog, mist and clouds that can feel like shortcuts to me.  Although they have an aesthetic role too.

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12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:


You said this, which it is true it doesn’t MAGICALLY do so, it certainly visually does so and it is directly connected to distance.

 

I should've been clearer what I was talking about in that post, my replies thereafter should have made it clear. I was referencing how closely it comes and how quickly it "consumes".

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3 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 


Just using the natural world as a reference, I'd agree with @Duderino that it should probably have more of it than Halo does now. 

 

 

 

Most games are actually pretty good about this, I think.  It's more the visible layers of fog, mist and clouds that feel like shortcuts to me.  Although they have an aesthetic role too.

 

As I originally stated, that depends on sea level:

aerial-shot-bird-s-eye-view-buildings-ci

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8 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

But the screenshot does have a haze to it, just closer to what real life haze would look like

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

Halo Infinite has the color shift, but the other atmospheric properties are not well represented.  This leads to a less natural and more artificial look.

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2 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Halo Infinite has the color shift, but the other atmospheric properties are not well represented.  This leads to a less natural and more artificial look.

 

I think it's more just crappy geometry and awful art direction. :p 

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