General Gaming SUNDAY DRAMA! Neil Druckmann/Cory Balrog vs Jason Schreier goin' down on Twitter!

[Kal-El814]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Video Games as art was a mistake. 

No, I think video games as art is fine. But if we’re going to talk about gaming as art, some of the discussion around games has to amount to be more than, “should you spend $X to be able to consume this art.”

[Greatoneshere]

25 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I think the comment is problematic in a couple ways.

 

For one, it’s shitty to compare a completely fictional game to a Holocaust movie, even within the context of how one’s reaction to both might be the same. I’m honestly kind of surprised this is even in question. As loathe as I am to just swap nouns to make points, it would be nonsense for someone to say that watching Lara Croft suffer in the first Tomb Raider remake reminded them of how they felt watching Roots. I really don’t think the comparison being discussed here is any less absurd. It’s completely tone deaf.

 

The other reason that it’s problematic is part of the larger way that games are written about, especially tentpole games like recent Naughty Dog projects or other games that are obviously inspired by films. All reviews and impressions are subjective, of course, but an author saying, “game X reminded me of non-game-and-probably-movie-experience Y,” is just... useless. Even from authors or creators I know well, I’m not sure to know what someone’s take is going to be. I know, say, @Greatoneshere’s movie preferences reasonably well at this point. But if he said, “playing Mario Kart 8 Deluxe reminded me of how I felt watching Speed Racer,” I wouldn’t know what he meant. I could guess and I might even come close to being right, but it’s still not especially helpful. It’s bad writing.

 

So if you make a lazy comparison about a video game that’s NOT about the Holocaust to a Holocaust movie, you should absolutely be called out. Has nothing to do with Jeff being a decent guy, everyone fucks up from time to time. This was one of those times.

 

I agree with you on every point! The only distinction I'd make here is it seems Jeff Cannata explained in his tweet that he was comparing it to Schindler's List, not the Holocaust, which is a movie, not a real life event. And he only compared the two in that both were very difficult to get through. Not for the same reasons, but in that both are simply difficult watches/playthroughs (in different ways). That specificity makes the comparison make more sense. I will say though that when making comparisons of fictional things, it tends to be prudent to err on the side of comparing fictional things to fictional things rather than fictional things to real life events (or films based on real life events, I guess, though that's more allowed I think). 

 

Then again, I compared Death Stranding to Super Monkey Ball rather than a movie, so what sense do I make.  

[Kal-El814]

9 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I agree with you on every point! The only distinction I'd make here is it seems Jeff Cannata explained in his tweet that he was comparing it to Schindler's List, not the Holocaust, which is a movie, not a real life event. And he only compared the two in that both were very difficult to get through. Not for the same reasons, but in that both are simply difficult watches/playthroughs. That specificity makes the comparison make more sense.

 

Then again, I compared Death Stranding to Super Monkey Ball rather than a movie, so what sense do I make.  

I did say Holocaust movie... not just the Holocaust! I don’t think I missed any spots.

 

Also the more I think about it, the more I think the comparison just sucks. What’s part of the game’s ad text, on amazon?

 

 

Escalating moral conflicts? Challenge my notions of right and wrong? What’s the relatable moral conflict in Schindler’s List? Whose notions of right and wrong are challenged by Schindler’s List? It better not have been anyone viewing it. Again, I know what the author was going for, but the comparison is just straight up trash writing.

[SimpleG]

3 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I did say Holocaust movie... not just the Holocaust! I don’t think I missed any spots.

 

Also the more I think about it, the more I think the comparison just sucks. What’s part of the game’s ad text, on amazon?

 

 

Escalating moral conflicts? Challenge my notions of right and wrong? What’s the relatable moral conflict in Schindler’s List? Whose notions of right and wrong are challenged by Schindler’s List? It better not have been anyone viewing it. Again, I know what the author was going for, but the comparison is just straight up trash writing.

Did the critic write the ad ? Did the critic use the ad ? If not why are you comparing it?

[Kal-El814]

Just now, SimpleG said:

Did the critic write the ad ? Did the critic use the ad ? If not why are you comparing it?

Because it’s obvious that the creators intended for TLoU2 to present a morally ambiguous world. Interviews confirm this, the previews imply that, and the ads straight up say it. If someone reviewing TLoU2 says they felt the same way about it that they did about a Holocaust movie... what conclusions should someone come to? It’s lazy, shit writing.

[Greatoneshere]

9 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I did say Holocaust movie... not just the Holocaust! I don’t think I missed any spots.

 

Also the more I think about it, the more I think the comparison just sucks. What’s part of the game’s ad text, on amazon?

 

Escalating moral conflicts? Challenge my notions of right and wrong? What’s the relatable moral conflict in Schindler’s List? Whose notions of right and wrong are challenged by Schindler’s List? It better not have been anyone viewing it. Again, I know what the author was going for, but the comparison is just straight up trash writing.

 

The comparison isn't great, but I do understand both theoretically being "trying" experiences (just in different ways) in which case I do understand the comparison, though I agree again that the comparison is lame. Perhaps a different example of an emotionally trying film or game experience? 

[Kal-El814]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

The comparison isn't great, but I do understand both theoretically being "trying" experiences (just in different ways) in which case I do understand the comparison, though I agree again that the comparison is lame. Perhaps a different example of an emotionally trying film or game experience? 

I appreciate that he was going for the notion that both experiences were emotionally trying. I would even wager that, to an extent, the creators of each were going for that feeling specifically. With that said I still think there’s a distinct lack of taste or respect involved in making comparisons between artistic depictions of real life atrocities and completely unrelated, completely fictional events.

 

Again I don’t think the guy should be raked over the coals or anything. But was it a dumb thing to say? Yes, absolutely.

[ShreddieMercury]

I just want to highlight how bafflingly bad video game writing is, by and large.  It is so, so rare in my experience to find well-written, thoughtful, articulate games criticism.  Here are some examples from recent reviews I've read:

 

The first sentence of the Kotaku Gears 5 review is: "Gears 5 has the longest and most ambitious campaign that Gears of War has ever done and, for the most part, that ambition pays off."

 

Here's a great one from the Half Life: Alyx review at Vice: "For one, I did not anticipate Alyx is, essentially, Valve making a horror game. It’s scary as fuck. It is not a revolutionary game, but, again, it's definitely a very good one, and if Valve made games of this quality regularly again, we’d all be so lucky."

 

Forget anybody making accurate comparisons between games and movies; games writers can't even seem to grasp basic grammatical guidelines.  Are there any writers or journalists that you respond to?  I usually really like Oli Welsh and Malindy Hatfeld at Eurogamer, but I don't really have a primary outlet for decent stuff about games.  I actually find the breakdowns of games on D1P to be generally more helpful and interesting than most dedicated video game outlets.

 

Edit - I should add that I loved reading Ellie Gibson when she was at Eurogamer.  She's maybe my favorite games writer I've read.

[Xbob42]

As someone who doesn't watch many movies, I find comparisons to film to be excruciating to filter through when reading reviews. If there's super obvious film inspiration then of course it makes sense to reference it, but I don't need a goddamn thesis on the comparisons, I prefer when writers get to the point and stick to comparisons to other games, and keep comparisons in general to a minimum to begin with once the core concept of the game has been established.

 

That being said, I also don't read very many reviews at all anymore. I find them very surface level or focused on aspects of a title I tend to personally not care about. I feel like watching 15 seconds of the reviewer playing the game is worth more to me personally than 10,000 words. Once you've played enough games, I feel like you "get it" most of the time just by watching it being played. By a regular person, that is. I think seeing the basic gameplay loop is critical and is often hidden when it comes to marketing material.

[SimpleG]

13 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

Are there any writers or journalists that you respond to?  I usually really like Oli Welsh and Malindy Hatfeld at Eurogamer, but I don't really have a primary outlet for decent stuff about games.  I actually find the breakdowns of games on D1P to be generally more helpful and interesting than most dedicated video game outlets.

ACG and SkillUp but neither are deal breakers for me if they dont like them. 

 

16 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

I actually find the breakdowns of games on D1P to be generally more helpful and interesting than most dedicated video game outlets

Agree for the most part but sometimes even D1P gets circle jerky. 

[Bloodporne]

I look at average scores here on D1P and then check out a gameplay video on YouTube at this point, that's pretty much it. The only reviews I've really properly paid attention to that I can remember in recent times would be actually ACG and SkillUp as well.

[Bloodporne]

37 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

Here's a great one from the Half Life: Alyx review at Vice: "For one, I did not anticipate Alyx is, essentially, Valve making a horror game. It’s scary as fuck. It is not a revolutionary game, but, again, it's definitely a very good one, and if Valve made games of this quality regularly again, we’d all be so lucky."

[Paperclyp]

4 hours ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

I just want to highlight how bafflingly bad video game writing is, by and large.  It is so, so rare in my experience to find well-written, thoughtful, articulate games criticism.  Here are some examples from recent reviews I've read:

 

The first sentence of the Kotaku Gears 5 review is: "Gears 5 has the longest and most ambitious campaign that Gears of War has ever done and, for the most part, that ambition pays off."

 

Here's a great one from the Half Life: Alyx review at Vice: "For one, I did not anticipate Alyx is, essentially, Valve making a horror game. It’s scary as fuck. It is not a revolutionary game, but, again, it's definitely a very good one, and if Valve made games of this quality regularly again, we’d all be so lucky."

 

Forget anybody making accurate comparisons between games and movies; games writers can't even seem to grasp basic grammatical guidelines.  Are there any writers or journalists that you respond to?  I usually really like Oli Welsh and Malindy Hatfeld at Eurogamer, but I don't really have a primary outlet for decent stuff about games.  I actually find the breakdowns of games on D1P to be generally more helpful and interesting than most dedicated video game outlets.

 

Edit - I should add that I loved reading Ellie Gibson when she was at Eurogamer.  She's maybe my favorite games writer I've read.

Same site, but when Rob Zacny and Austin Walker choose to write it’s usually pretty damn good. 

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, Paperclyp said:

Same site, but when Rob Zacny and Austin Walker choose to write it’s usually pretty damn good. 

I remember Zacny as the one TLoU2 full review I did read because while quite scathing, I thought it was an entertaining read and well-written as far as game reviews go.

[Paperclyp]

Just now, Bloodporne said:

I remember Zacny as the one TLoU2 full review I did read because while quite scathing, I thought it was an entertaining read and well-written as far as game reviews go.

They have changed the way I think about so many things just by the way they speak and write. 

[SimpleG]

8 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I remember Zacny as the one TLoU2 full review I did read because while quite scathing, I thought it was an entertaining read and well-written as far as game reviews go.

I just read that , pretty damn good.

[Ghost_MH]

6 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

I appreciate that he was going for the notion that both experiences were emotionally trying. I would even wager that, to an extent, the creators of each were going for that feeling specifically. With that said I still think there’s a distinct lack of taste or respect involved in making comparisons between artistic depictions of real life atrocities and completely unrelated, completely fictional events.

 

Again I don’t think the guy should be raked over the coals or anything. But was it a dumb thing to say? Yes, absolutely.

 

As I said in the LoU thread, it shows a clear disconnect between film and reality to make the comparison. I also don't think he should be raked over the coals, but his issue was doubling down and not even acknowledging that it's an insensitive and dumb comparison to make. He could have just explained himself in another tweet and said "yeah, not the smartest comparison to make". That would have been the end of it.

 

It's simply disrespectful of the real people that lost their live. With more than a hundred years of film to choose from, there are plenty of other to pick for his comparison. Hell, even Grave of the Fireflies would have been closer to OK since it's not depicting any real people only real events.

[Greatoneshere]

13 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

It's simply disrespectful of the real people that lost their live. With more than a hundred years of film to choose from, there are plenty of other to pick for his comparison. Hell, even Grave of the Fireflies would have been closer to OK since it's not depicting any real people only real events.

 

Well Grave of the Fireflies is, in a way, based on real people since the writer of the novel on which the film is based is "the boy" in the film, and the sister he lost during the WWII firebombings of Japan is the younger sister in the film. The only difference is in real life he didn't die too (he has the boy die in the novel because he felt great shame and survivor's guilt over it). The writer of the novel (Akiyuki Nosaka) actually lost two sisters to malnutrition and an adptive father to the firebombings in real life. But I otherwise take your point.

[Ghost_MH]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well Grave of the Fireflies is, in a way, based on real people since the writer of the novel on which the film is based is "the boy" in the film, and the sister he lost during the WWII firebombings of Japan is the younger sister in the film. The only difference is in real life he didn't die too (he has the boy die in the novel because he felt great shame and survivor's guilt over it). The writer of the novel (Akiyuki Nosaka) actually lost two sisters to malnutrition and an adptive father to the firebombings in real life. But I otherwise take your point.

 

That's it much my point. It's the difference between based on real events and telling the story of real people. That makes it more OK to compare to fixing events than something like Schindler's List.

 

Either way, there's this ridiculous online culture where admitting any fault is seen as some sort of stupid weakness and dammit, I'm never wrong. People don't apologize for not being more considerate with their words and comparisons, it's your fault for not understanding them or being offended. Like yeah, he didn't compare TLoU to the Holocaust. He just compared it to what could be considered as the definitive Holocaust movie. That's splitting some pretty damn fine hairs for no reason other than him not having a library of films to pull from in his head. Hell, there are a dozen Kubrick movies he could have pulled from to make his point just as clearly without having to go all Godwin.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Jeff compared his reaction to consuming two pieces of media that were both made for profit.  That is not insensitive, nor does it need to be apologized for.

 

His comments did not promote hate.  His comments did not demean any racial/ethnic group, promote systemic discrimination or minimize an historical event.  If he did one of those things, he probably should.  But, he didn't.

[Ghost_MH]

3 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Jeff compared his reaction to consuming two pieces of media that were both made for profit.  That is not insensitive, nor does it need to be apologized for.

 

His comments did not promote hate.  His comments did not demean any racial/ethnic group, promote systemic discrimination or minimize an historical event.  If he did one of those things, he probably should.  But, he didn't.

 

And if his reaction to a film about the literal Holocaust was equal to his reaction to a game about zombies, it just shows the profound disconnect he has between real life and a film reenactment of it. Also stating that both are for profit venture is meaningless here. It doesn't even approach the topic here. The whole playground I refuse to apologize for accidentally bumping into and knocking you down bullshit is just that; childishness that keeps much of gaming journalism a joke. The onus isn't on the offended to prove they a leg. This wouldn't even be a discussion if he just manned up, admit his callousness, and moved on. What then? Would you lose respect for him or something? How ridiculous would that even be?

 

As I mentioned previously. I don't think he deserves to be vilified for being all Godwin on his movie chart. The worst part about all of this? The shear laziness of his description. It was literally "what's a sad movie? i know. schindler's list. yay. tweet that". Either he's being intellectually lazy or assuming his followers are a bunch of troglodytes that haven't seen a drama since high school when they were made to sit through Schindler's List and whatever version of Romeo and Juliet was in vogue at the time. How about Million Dollar Baby? A Clockwork Orange? Brokeback Mountain? Beasts of the Southern Wild? This isn't difficult and if his attempt was to illustrate how games can be art, he should put a little more effort into the comparison. His comparison was a kludgy and amateurish and his defense of it all is positively juvenile.

 

We all fuck up, even unintentionally. Well, maybe not @Emperor Diocletian II, but that's certainly true for the rest of us mortals. I get home from work and throw my shoes to the side. One of my kids trip over them. I apologize, I put the shoes away. I don't berate the kid for watching where they're walking. The world would be a lot simpler if people just afforded each other that much respect. There is literally nothing to lose other than a little misplaced pride.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just to be clear about Jeff's analogy, he wasn't necessarily comparing the emotional impact of TLoU II vis-a-vis Schindler's List.

 

The intent of the comparison was how "we" react to depictions of violence when it's presented as either "cartoony/fun" (John Wick) or "harrowing/not fun" (Schindler's List).  His original point was that TLoU reflects the latter rather than the former.

 

In light of that, while I still maintain that using Schindler's List for analogy purpose in ANY context should simply be avoided, I really see nothing that he should "apologize" for.

 

It's always preferable to not apologize (my preferred course of action at all times) for something that you don't feel "sorry" about than to offer the ghastly, wishy-washy "I apologize for offending you" nonsense.

[AbsolutSurgen]

35 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

And if his reaction to a film about the literal Holocaust was equal to his reaction to a game about zombies, it just shows the profound disconnect he has between real life and a film reenactment of it. Also stating that both are for profit venture is meaningless here. It doesn't even approach the topic here. The whole playground I refuse to apologize for accidentally bumping into and knocking you down bullshit is just that; childishness that keeps much of gaming journalism a joke. The onus isn't on the offended to prove they a leg. This wouldn't even be a discussion if he just manned up, admit his callousness, and moved on. What then? Would you lose respect for him or something? How ridiculous would that even be?

1)  Wo gave you the moral judgement to determine what a valid emotional reaction to consuming media is?  Why do you think people need to apologize if their view is different than yours?

2)  Jeff Canatta is not and never has been a games journalist.

3)  He hasn't been callous.

4)  There is no moral onus on Jeff, or anybody else to try and ensure that no one is "offended" by anything he says.  Very little can be said of any import, that SOMEONE won't find "offensive". [In the current twitter lexicon, it appears to be anything than doesn't 100% conform to someone's preferences/beliefs.]

35 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

As I mentioned previously. I don't think he deserves to be vilified for being all Godwin on his movie chart. The worst part about all of this? The shear laziness of his description. It was literally "what's a sad movie? i know. schindler's list. yay. tweet that". Either he's being intellectually lazy or assuming his followers are a bunch of troglodytes that haven't seen a drama since high school when they were made to sit through Schindler's List and whatever version of Romeo and Juliet was in vogue at the time. How about Million Dollar Baby? A Clockwork Orange? Brokeback Mountain? Beasts of the Southern Wild? This isn't difficult and if his attempt was to illustrate how games can be art, he should put a little more effort into the comparison. His comparison was a kludgy and amateurish and his defense of it all is positively juvenile.

 

We all fuck up, even unintentionally. Well, maybe not @Emperor Diocletian II, but that's certainly true for the rest of us mortals. I get home from work and throw my shoes to the side. One of my kids trip over them. I apologize, I put the shoes away. I don't berate the kid for watching where they're walking. The world would be a lot simpler if people just afforded each other that much respect. There is literally nothing to lose other than a little misplaced pride.

People don't need to apologize for saying things that are kludgy, amateurish and juvenile.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

For the record, no one should ever apologize to me for anything or seek my forgiveness, because I philosophically don't believe that anyone is ever truly "sorry" for anything they have ever done.  "Contrition" and "forgiveness" is all just "slave morality" nonsense anyway.

 

Instead, just own the hell out of that shit and you'll earn something far more valuable from me: respect and honor.

[Moa]

This is the walking into a glass window twice of tweets. It's not offensive, it just invites ridicule. 

[Keyser_Soze]

4 hours ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

For the record, no one should ever apologize to me for anything or seek my forgiveness, because I philosophically don't believe that anyone is ever truly "sorry" for anything they have ever done.  "Contrition" and "forgiveness" is all just "slave morality" nonsense anyway.

 

Instead, just own the hell out of that shit and you'll earn something far more valuable from me: respect and honor.

 

Fuck you asshole!

 

And I'm not apologizing!

[Bacon]

8 hours ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

For the record, no one should ever apologize to me for anything or seek my forgiveness, because I philosophically don't believe that anyone is ever truly "sorry" for anything they have ever done.  "Contrition" and "forgiveness" is all just "slave morality" nonsense anyway.

 

Instead, just own the hell out of that shit and you'll earn something far more valuable from me: respect and honor.

"If you were sorry you wouldn't have done it in the first place."

 

While that is usually true, there are plenty of times I am sorry due to my forgetfulness or lack of knowledge/ignorance. Like, let's say you found yourself in hell and I was your roommate. Now let's say there was a drink we both liked, but I drink a lot more of it. Now let's say there was only one glass/bottle of this drink left, and you had made plans to drink it in the evening once you got comfortable. But you didn't tell me so I end up drinking it in the morning. I wouldn't have thought to say anything as there was nothing really wrong with me drinking it. Then, once you told me of your plans to drink it after I had already drank it I would feel sorry. If I had known I wouldn't have drank it. I feel like most people in this situation would be truly sorry. Especially if they then go out and get more for you. 

 

Of course this is a very small thing to be sorry over which is why people would be sorry. Most people aren't really sorry when it comes to bigger things. 

[Ghost_MH]

13 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

People don't need to apologize for saying things that are kludgy, amateurish and juvenile.

 

Apologize is the wrong word, so feel free to black it out of any conversation here. I'll admit that's not the expression I'm thinking of in this instance.

 

See, that wasn't that hard, was it?

 

People just need to own up to their clumsy wording. Folks online feel this desperate need to never own up to any of the stupid shit that comes out of their keyboards. The word isn't apologize, it's empathize. If Jeff here had just empathized with those that were offended then nobody would have cared. This wouldn't be a story. Instead he goes into double/triple/quadruple knots just to make his point when he could have just ended the conversation by just acknowledging that it his comparison was kludgy, amateurish, juvenile, and not very well thought out. He doesn't have to say sorry or write some insincere "I apologize to those that were offended" tweet. All he had to do was respond to the first person that called him out and say "Yeah, I didn't really think that one through. I could have come up with a better analogy." End of conversation and he doesn't wind up spend hours of his life dealing with it. This sort of dumb pride is the sunk cause fallacy of tweets.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Apologize is the wrong word, so feel free to black it out of any conversation here. I'll admit that's not the expression I'm thinking of in this instance.

 

See, that wasn't that hard, was it?

 

People just need to own up to their clumsy wording. Folks online feel this desperate need to never own up to any of the stupid shit that comes out of their keyboards. The word isn't apologize, it's empathize. If Jeff here had just empathized with those that were offended then nobody would have cared. This wouldn't be a story. Instead he goes into double/triple/quadruple knots just to make his point when he could have just ended the conversation by just acknowledging that it his comparison was kludgy, amateurish, juvenile, and not very well thought out. He doesn't have to say sorry or write some insincere "I apologize to those that were offended" tweet. All he had to do was respond to the first person that called him out and say "Yeah, I didn't really think that one through. I could have come up with a better analogy." End of conversation and he doesn't wind up spend hours of his life dealing with it. This sort of dumb pride is the sunk cause fallacy of tweets.

I understand your point better now.  I apologize if my reaction was stronger than it should have been.

[Brick]

 

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Brick said:

 

 

1) He is absolutely right about the state of AAA storytelling

2)  Funny he didn't do any research into who Jeff Cannata is.  Calling him a writer (he isn't), and not recognizing that he is a movie critic.

3)  Every time he mispronounced Jason Schreier's [its shryer, not scryer] last name, I wanted to slap him.

4)  Jim Sterling is the Jar Jar Binks of video game Youtubers.

[GeneticBlueprint]

I love Jeff Cannata. I can't believe people are jumping down his throat about this.

[Ghost_MH]

I had forgotten how much reviewers wanted to deem some random game the he Citizen Kane of gaming. Anybody trying to make that comparison really has no idea what they're talking about or why Citizen Kane was so influential. Games have already had their Citizen Kane moment and that happened back in 1985. I do appreciate how much he desperately can't keep a straight face when talking about how much these AAA games are pushed as high art.

[Xbob42]

25 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

I love Jeff Cannata. I can't believe people are jumping down his throat about this.

I think people mostly just poked fun at him, not sure who jumped down his throat.

[AbsolutSurgen]

6 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I think people mostly just poked fun at him, not sure who jumped down his throat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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