Sony Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart (June 11, 2021) - Information Thread, Update: reviews from OpenCritic posted

[Keyser_Soze]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

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https://instagram.com/dailydoody?igshid=5b505qedfugc

 

 

That's probably more like Jason's than yours.

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

That's probably more like Jason's than yours.

Nah, his is green and has lots of corn in it

[Keyser_Soze]

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Nah, his is green and has lots of corn in it

 

[Spork3245]

7 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

[JPDunks4]

On 8/28/2020 at 12:12 AM, heydude93 said:

 

Since there's already games with portal guns and dimensional riftshifting and the ones in the demo are from a weapon/device, everything seems to point to Ratchet obtaining one at some point to upgrade for some bonkers Prey/Portal/Titanfall gameplay possibilities 

 

There is no evidence of this at all yet, and Digital Foundry feel it's just on rails segments currently.

 

I hope they show us something soon that show us something interesting using the mechanic, as it could definitely create some more interesting gameplay elements if used like Titanfall.

 

 

[Remarkableriots]

2 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

There is no evidence of this at all yet, and Digital Foundry feel it's just on rails segments currently.

 

I hope they show us something soon that show us something interesting using the mechanic, as it could definitely create some more interesting gameplay elements if used like Titanfall.

 

 

Do you have a link to this information?

[JPDunks4]

1 hour ago, Remarkableriots said:

Do you have a link to this information?

 

It's what I felt after the initial reveal.  It obviously looks awesome, but it was only during on rails segments, which many games create some awesome effects and experiences during on rails segments.  The in world teleporting was basically teleportation across the same area, which I don't consider anything special or unique as games have been doing stuff like that forever now.  

Game still looks gorgeous with awesome effects, but the SSD with whats shown thus far hasn't shown me anything that improves the gameplay experience of the game much.

 

 

[heydude93]

7 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

There is no evidence of this at all yet, and Digital Foundry feel it's just on rails segments currently.

 

I hope they show us something soon that show us something interesting using the mechanic, as it could definitely create some more interesting gameplay elements if used like Titanfall.

 

 

I mean since RaC has always been about having creative weaponry and we do get confirmation of a weapon in the upcoming game that's opening the portal rifts, I think it's reasonable to assume it's hinting at this in the trailer!  But I could be wrong.  It'll be pretty cool if we do though!

[Duderino]

4 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

Game still looks gorgeous with awesome effects, but the SSD with whats shown thus far hasn't shown me anything that improves the gameplay experience of the game much.

While not as eye catching as jumping between worlds, the encounter design on display does illustrate a break from limitations of last gen.  If you haven’t done so already, watch the NXgamer breakdown posted a page back.

[Spork3245]

11 hours ago, Duderino said:

While not as eye catching as jumping between worlds, the encounter design on display does illustrate a break from limitations of last gen.  If you haven’t done so already, watch the NXgamer breakdown posted a page back.

What break from limitations are you referencing? The portal implementation during non-scripted sequences seems no different than what Portal did in 2007 - is there something else?

[Duderino]

3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

What break from limitations are you referencing? The portal implementation during non-scripted sequences seems no different than what Portal did in 2007 - is there something else?

Loading and spawning large sets of different enemy assets that would not all fit in RAM previously, whether we are talking enemies jumping through portals or when Ratchet jumps to new locals.

 

With the PS4/Xbone, one limiting factor to diversity of enemy encounters is the HDD.  AAA tittles that do not have the available RAM to pre-load every enemy archetype (and their animations) are limited by the speed at which they can load data from disc + make room in RAM.  Beyond just the slow baseline read speeds, devs also have to contend with the needle. Special care with asset packaging is required to reduce its travel distance.

 

If you want to get a sense of exactly how much of a limiting factor this can be for the current gen, go play Jedi: Fallen Order.  Many enemy archetypes are streamed in on the spot in that game, leading to slow enemy reset times, frequent hitches, and lots of bugs.

 

Back to Ratchet, I agree with NXgamer

 here.  Scripted sequences or not, this would not be possible on this level with the current gen consoles.  It marks a pretty big shift in what designers are now free to do.

[Spork3245]

19 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Loading and spawning large sets of different enemy assets that would not all fit in RAM previously, whether we are talking enemies jumping through portals or when Ratchet jumps to new locals.

 

With the PS4/Xbone, one limiting factor to diversity of enemy encounters is the HDD.  AAA tittles that do not have the available RAM to pre-load every enemy archetype (and their animations) are limited by the speed at which they can load data from disc + make room in RAM.  Beyond just the slow baseline read speeds, devs also have to contend with the needle. Special care with asset packaging is required to reduce its travel distance.

 

If you want to get a sense of exactly how much of a limiting factor this can be for the current gen, go play Jedi: Fallen Order.  Many enemy archetypes are streamed in on the spot in that game, leading to slow enemy reset times, frequent hitches, and lots of bugs.

 

Back to Ratchet, I agree with NXgamer

 here.  Scripted sequences or not, this would not be possible on this level with the current gen consoles.  It marks a pretty big shift in what designers are now free to do.

Where are you getting info that these assets are too large for current gen hardware in those scripted transitions?

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

Where are you getting info that these assets are too large for current gen hardware in those scripted transitions?

 

Wait, Ratchet falling through portals?  I think it's evident why that couldn't be done current gen as such.  If the data for each vignette could be kept in ram, they wouldn't have to mask the loading as they are now.

[Duderino]

57 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Where are you getting info that these assets are too large for current gen hardware in those scripted transitions?

NXgamer, the developers themselves, multiple GDC talks discussing streaming challenges of current gen consoles, games that have hitched this gen loading much less.

 

Scripted sequence have been used to mask the limitations this gen, but none that I've seen come close to the quantity of high quality assets/worlds transitioning here.  By all means though if you can find a comparable counter example let's discuss.

 

[JPDunks4]

6 minutes ago, Duderino said:

NXgamer, the developers themselves, multiple GDC talks discussing streaming challenges of current gen consoles, games that have hitched this gen loading much less.

 

Scripted sequence have been used to mask the limitations this gen, but none that I've seen come close to the quantity of high quality assets/worlds transitioning here.  By all means though, if you can find a comparable counter example, let's discuss.

 

 

I don't disagree that the scripted sequence at that speed isn't possible on current gen hardware.  My concern is from a gameplay perspective, if that's the only implementation, it does little to push the game forward in my opinion other than from a visual standpoint.  It looks cool to jump from world to world like that, but experiencing it as a player, on such a tight on rails segment, wouldn't improve my experience much from any other on rails cinematic sequence.

 

I am just hoping to see gameplay implementation in the forms of a Titanfall 2, or Portal but jumping to different worlds in real time gameplay segments controlled by the player.

 

[Guest]

This feels so small in terms of what fast storage can mean for gaming. Like, cool, I guess.

[Duderino]

14 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

 

I don't disagree that the scripted sequence at that speed isn't possible on current gen hardware.  My concern is from a gameplay perspective, if that's the only implementation, it does little to push the game forward in my opinion other than from a visual standpoint.  It looks cool to jump from world to world like that, but experiencing it as a player, on such a tight on rails segment, wouldn't improve my experience much from any other on rails cinematic sequence.

 

I am just hoping to see gameplay implementation in the forms of a Titanfall 2, or Portal but jumping to different worlds in real time gameplay segments controlled by the player.

 

A wider breadth of possible enemy encounters in a given gameplay sequence is one of the advantages the PS5/SeriesX/S can bring to next-gen AAA games.  Ratchet is demonstrating that.

 

Again, it might not be the flashest use case of the new hardware, but I'd argue this can make a very broad positive impact on game design with next gen tittles.

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, Duderino said:

 

Scripted sequence have been used to mask the limitations this gen, but none that I've seen come close to the quantity of high quality assets/worlds transitioning here.  By all means though if you can find a comparable counter example let's discuss.

 

 

Titanfall 2 is the closest this gen I've tried.  But it keeps most of the level geometry as you transition (think dark world / light world).  I think Dishonored 2 works similarly?

 

1 hour ago, JPDunks4 said:

I don't disagree that the scripted sequence at that speed isn't possible on current gen hardware.  My concern is from a gameplay perspective, if that's the only implementation, it does little to push the game forward in my opinion other than from a visual standpoint.  It looks cool to jump from world to world like that, but experiencing it as a player, on such a tight on rails segment, wouldn't improve my experience much from any other on rails cinematic sequence.

 

Just like the transition to the current gen, forward pushes will come most obviously from a visual standpoint.  I don't think there should be a "concern" with Ratchet leaning on the SSD for a visual on-rails effect if that's primarily where they opt to go with it.  (Though as @Duderino said, there's stuff under the hood elsewhere too.)

Would more ideas more directly extending to gameplay be nice?  Absolutely.  But it'd be more about untapped potential then.  Which might as well be an industry mantra for the next good while in regard to these drives.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Wait, Ratchet falling through portals?  I think it's evident why that couldn't be done current gen as such.  If the data for each vignette could be kept in ram, they wouldn't have to mask the loading as they are now.

 

55 minutes ago, Duderino said:

NXgamer, the developers themselves, multiple GDC talks discussing streaming challenges of current gen consoles, games that have hitched this gen loading much less.

 

Scripted sequence have been used to mask the limitations this gen, but none that I've seen come close to the quantity of high quality assets/worlds transitioning here.  By all means though if you can find a comparable counter example let's discuss.

 

Sorry, “in” was a typo, it was supposed to be “outside of”. Was on my way out the door and mistyped  
So, outside of those scripted sequences, where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”?

 

BTW, before the conversation becomes a straw man, I’m not discounting the benefits and changes m.2 drives will make - I’m asking about this game specifically and it’s actual gameplay.

[Duderino]

28 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Sorry, “in” was a typo, it was supposed to be “outside of”. Was on my way out the door and mistyped  
So, outside of those scripted sequences, where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C?

 

BTW, before the conversation becomes a straw man, I’m not discounting the benefits and changes m.2 drives will make - I’m asking about this game specifically and it’s actual gameplay.

Feel like a broken record now but outside of the obvious world hoping, the loading/spawning of diverse enemy architypes in a short span of time.  

 

The CPU, RAM, and especially HDD of last gen consoles would quickly become limiting factors if Insomniac were to attempted this game on the PS4.  Given the streaming challenges of the current gen, it's hard to imagine this title running on PS4 without game changing sacrifices, major loading hitches, and/or an unrealistic amount of dev time spent optimizing transitions.

[Spork3245]

17 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Feel like a broken record now but outside of the obvious world hoping, the loading/spawning of diverse enemy architypes in a short span of time.  

 

 

These things only happened in the scripted spots in the gameplay demo, though. Am I mistaken? I’m asking about affects on gameplay.

ie: the world hopping is pre-determined from what’s been shown. The only dynamic element affecting gameplay that’s been shown is the portal creation which seems similar to Portal 1 & 2.

 

Quote

The CPU, RAM, and especially HDD of last gen consoles would quickly become limiting factors if Insomniac were to attempted this game on the PS4.  Given the streaming challenges of the current gen, it's hard to imagine this title running on PS4 without game changing sacrifices, major loading hitches, and/or an unrealistic amount of dev time spent optimizing transitions.

 

Again, asking outside of the scripted world hops, which still had masked loading through transitional animations of floating through a wormhole. Yes, it was only 3-ish seconds long or so, but I disagree that it’s actually “groundbreaking” based on what’s been shown, just “better” (faster) than current gen.

[crispy4000]

@Spork3245

I think you're not fully considering how those world hops load into different scenarios.  It's not just about the speed of the visual transition.  It's about the player getting to go back to blasting new things in a entirely new environment after a few seconds.  Sure, it's subjective how much "better" that makes the game, but it is groundbreaking tech at this asset quality.

 

There are current-gen games that do similar hard cuts during cutscenes.  But that's only possible because they take away control from the player for a good long while, to mask the loading.  Before this, you could expect a minute or so of story dump between similar gameplay environment transitions.  (if not straight up load screens)

For the portals warping in new level geometry and such, that's a bit more dependent on what's fitting in RAM, or how dynamic it can be.  If for some reason you don't believe Ratchet is taking full advantage of the drive this way, then that's good!  Some other game down the road will.

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

@Spork3245

I think you're not fully considering how those world hops load into different scenarios.  It's not just about the speed of the visual transition.  It's about the player getting to go back to blasting new things in a entirely new environment after a few seconds.  Sure, it's subjective how much "better" that makes the game, but it is groundbreaking tech at this asset quality.

 

There are current-gen games that do similar hard cuts during cutscenes.  That's because they take away control from the player for a good long while, to mask the loading.  Before this, you could expect a minute or so of story dump between similar gameplay environment transitions.  (if not straight up load screens)

For the portals warping in new level geometry and such, that's a bit more dependent on what's fitting in RAM, or how dynamic it can be.

I’m only talking about what’s been shown and nothing theoretical or “maybe”. Also, I’m not discussing about the game being better, I’m challenging this:

17 hours ago, Duderino said:

While not as eye catching as jumping between worlds, the encounter design on display does illustrate a break from limitations of last gen.  If you haven’t done so already, watch the NXgamer breakdown posted a page back.

Which was in response to this:

 

22 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

Game still looks gorgeous with awesome effects, but the SSD with whats shown thus far hasn't shown me anything that improves the gameplay experience of the game much.

Which I agree with. What’s been shown is neat, but I disagree that it’s “groundbreaking” or truly improves gameplay.

I guess I’m just missing what about the “(enemy) encounter design” that has been shown so far actually breaks from current gen 

Sure, less/shorter loads are FANTASTIC, but it’s not really changing the way the game is played IMO

[crispy4000]

20 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I’m only talking about what’s been shown and nothing theoretical or “maybe”.

 

But there's few theoreticals here to begin with.  The game loads in totally different environments, enemies, and gameplay mechanics in seconds. 

The only maybe is if the other, less comprehensive transitions and enemy loading they do wouldn't need to be reliant on the SSD.
 

20 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Also, I’m not discussing about the game being better... what’s been shown is neat, but I disagree that it’s “groundbreaking” or truly improves gameplay.

 

This is contradictory.

[Spork3245]

12 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

But there's few theoreticals here to begin with.  The game loads in totally new environments, enemies, and gameplay mechanics in seconds. 

The only maybe is if the other, less comprehensive transitions they do wouldn't need to be reliant on the SSD.
 

 

 

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”?

 

57 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I’m asking about affects on gameplay.

ie: the world hopping is pre-determined from what’s been shown. The only dynamic element affecting gameplay that’s been shown is the portal creation which seems similar to Portal 1 & 2.

 

Please answer based on the gameplay demos that’ve been shown, as I am not nor have I stated that m.2 SSDs can/will greatly affect gameplay and games. I am asking about this specific game, and what’s been shown of it. 

 

Quote

This is contradictory.

No, it isn’t... at all.

THPS 1 + 2 2020 is a better game than the originals because it looks better and loads faster. It’s gameplay is the same, however. The “better” in the instance of the context of what you quoted is regarding load times improving the game.

Something in a game can be “better” and make the game “better” without it actually affecting the gameplay.

[crispy4000]

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”?
 

Please answer based on the gameplay demos that’ve been shown, as I am not nor have I stated that m.2 SSDs can/will adversely affect gameplay and games. I am asking about this specific game, and what’s been shown of it. 

 

 

The player is transported into entirely new environments with entirely new enemies in seconds.  I can repeat that as many times as you'd like.
 

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

No, it isn’t... at all.

 

Tell me how we're supposed to have a discussion about 'true' gameplay improvements without discussing what makes game better or worse.

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

The player is transported into entirely new environments with entirely new enemies in seconds.  I can repeat that as many times as you'd like.
 

 

That’s eliminating the load of a new level, not a gameplay feature, ie: a weapon/mechanic. You seem to be confusing “gameplay” with the overall game. The world hops, from what’s been shown, is scripted, not user controlled or dynamic.

 

Quote

 

 

Tell me how we're supposed to have a discussion about gameplay improvements without talking about what makes a game better or worse.

 

10 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

THPS 1 + 2 2020 is a better game than the originals because it looks better and loads faster. It’s gameplay is the same, however. The “better” in the instance of the context of what you quoted is regarding load times improving the game.

Something in a game can be “better” and make the game “better” without it actually affecting the gameplay.

 

[crispy4000]

26 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

That’s eliminating the load of a new level, not a gameplay feature, ie: a weapon/mechanic. You seem to be confusing “gameplay” with the overall game.

I answered your question as you last gave it: it's impossible as such in the current generation and is breaking boundaries.

 

It's not a new gameplay mechanic on its own.  But it's a much better warp pad compared to what could be employed this generation at its standard fidelity.  Faster loading of a linear game absolutely does affect its pacing.  It would be entirely unacceptable if you waited 30+ seconds between vignettes.

What Ratchet is doing is much closer to what WarioWare did when it first came out.  The latter didn't invent the mini-game.  But if you want to disparage that for not doing enough new from that perspective, you're missing the point about what makes it significant, and a pioneer.

 

26 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Something in a game can be “better” and make the game “better” without it actually affecting the gameplay.

Yes.  But this is still all under the umbrella of what makes a game good or not.  Gameplay falls under it, as does visual design, performance, etc. 

You can't just divorce one aspect of a game from its overall quality.  It feeds back into it.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I answered your question as you last gave it: it's impossible as such in the current generation and is breaking boundaries.

 

 

That’s not answering the question. You keep circling back to the scripted sequences. I asked about gameplay, ie: when you’re fighting enemies.

 

 

Quote

It's not a new gameplay mechanic on its own.  But it's a much better warp pad compared to what could be employed this generation at its standard fidelity.  Faster loading of a linear game absolutely does affect its pacing.  It would be entirely unacceptable if you waited 30+ seconds between vignettes.

 

 

Great, so we’re in agreement that nothing shown so far is a new gameplay mechanic dependent on having an SSD. 

 

Quote

 

 But if you want to disparage that for not doing enough new from that mindset, you're missing the point about what makes it significant.

 

No one is disparaging anything. 

 

Quote

Yes.  But this is all under the umbrella of what makes a game good or not.  Gameplay falls under it, as does visual design, etc. 

You can't just divorce the quality of one aspect of a game from its overall quality.  It feeds back into it.

...which is why I literally stated I was only talking about the gameplay aspect and not the overall quality or experience.

[crispy4000]

35 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

That’s not answering the question.

 

You: "Where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”? "
Me: "The player is transported into entirely new environments with entirely new enemies in seconds. It's impossible as such in the current generation and is breaking boundaries."

A direct answer to a direct question.

 

35 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Great, so we’re in agreement that nothing shown so far is a new gameplay mechanic dependent on having an SSD.
 

No one is disparaging anything.

You're saying that without an original mechanic, it has no "truly" new benefit to gameplay.  I'd call that disparaging in for the same reasons I mentioned with WarioWare.  It's too narrow to give credit where it's due.

Which is why I think we're having an argument here:

 

35 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

...which is why I literally stated I was only talking about the gameplay aspect and not the overall quality.

You're taking this idea of gameplay apart from game quality too far.  I think you're slicing the parameters down to the level of the arguement you're trying to make.  It comes at the expense of being able to see the larger picture impact.

[stepee]

wow nerds much

[Spork3245]

28 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

You: "Where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”? "
Me: "The player is transported into entirely new environments with entirely new enemies in seconds. It's impossible as such in the current generation and is breaking boundaries."

A direct answer to a direct question.

 

 

LMAO, maybe try the whole quote:

2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

So, outside of those scripted sequences, where is the benefit of the SSD evident that it’s impossible for this gen in R&C where it’s “breaking boundaries”?

I made it clear in EVERY post that I am referencing gameplay.

 

Quote

You're saying that without a brand spanking new game mechanic, it has no "truly" new benefit to gameplay.  I'd call that disparaging in for the same reasons I presented in the WarioWare analogy.  It's too narrow minded to give credit where it's due.

 

I never said any such thing

Holy shit.  
I only ever asked what was being done in gameplay that wasn’t possible without an SSD. I STILL haven’t gotten an answer.

 

Quote

Which is why I think we're having an argument here:

 

You're taking this idea of gameplay apart from game quality too far.  I think you're slicing the parameters down to the level of the arguement you're trying to make.  But it comes at the expense of not being able to see the larger picture impact.

I do not know how to be any clearer: I am only asking, specifically, about SSD-based gameplay mechanics of what has been shown of this specific game and am not commenting on any future implementation or non-gameplay specific implementations.

 

Nothing you have stated has any relevance to anything I have asked or commented on.

[Duderino]

What game is a better next-gen showcase than Ratchet?  Lets see a point of comparison please.

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, Duderino said:

What game is a better next-gen showcase than Ratchet?  Lets see a point of comparison please.

I never claimed it wasn’t the best showcase  

There seems to be a weird habit of confusing arguments into something they aren’t. @JPDunks4 stated that, while impressive, there hasn’t been any SSD-dependent things that affect the gameplay mechanics from what’s been shown so far, I agree with him (and am looking forward to when those things are shown). No one is saying that R&C isn’t impressive or that the SSD-dependent things that have been shown aren’t impressive.

[crispy4000]

@Spork3245

The scripted sequences pull you in and out of different gameplay enviornments rapidly.  That's how it relates.  If you think that doesn't change the gameplay experience compared to current-gen AAA games, then I don't know what else to tell you other than to think more broadly about it.