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Tenet - Trailer and Discussion Thread (Opening 09/03/20)


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11 hours ago, IdeaOfEvil said:

Whichever one he is, it's clear that the first time he used the machine the Jackman that got killed was the one who appeared away from it. But during the performances, it was the clone who stayed in the machine that got dropped into the water tank and killed. So at the very least, the whichever the real Jackman is ended up dead before the end of the movie came about since both types of clones have died at least once (the one away and the one inside).

 

Yep, this.

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I always thought that they were ALL the "real" Jackman. They weren't clones but literal duplicates of the same man so it didn't really matter who was in the box or in the prestige (as he says at the end of the movie when he's dying after being shot) The only thing that was "real" to him at that point was his obsession with Bale's character. The Prestige is an AMAZING movie which is why it's absolutely hilarious to me that it's metacritic score is so low.

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7 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

They weren't clones but literal duplicates of the same man

I’m curious as to what you see as the difference between these two things. Seems like saying “it wasn’t rain, it was literally water falling from the sky”.

 

I do agree with your conclusion in so much that it didn’t matter to the character, but it does matter to the audience whether he’s killing a bunch of clones over and over or giving up his own life each time in pursuit of glory. 

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Let me see if I can explain it... in sci-fi  a clone is kinda looked at as a "copy" of the original. Like a Xerox... it may look EXACTLY like the thing it's copying but it is slightly diminished because people apply the logic that there's some type of "generational loss" when making copies of something. A "duplicate" in sci-fi is literally what it says... it's multiple versions of the same being or entity or object. No loss, no differences, same memories and abilities. For all intents and purposes where you had one being, now you have two existing in the same space. I always interpreted that THAT is what was happening in the Prestige.

 

There's the scene in the movie where Jackman's character asks David Bowie's Tesla about the dozens of duplicate hats and wondering "which one was his." Tesla says "They're ALL yours." To me that implies that they aren't copies, they're literally the same object repeated over and over again. At the end of the movie where Bale's character lectures Jackman's character about sacrifice and Jackman scoffs saying to him that he's sacrifced FAR more than Bale's character(s) did. Bale's character may have 

Spoiler

lost a brother

but Jackman was literally killing himself and on top of that, as he says, he never knew  for certain if he would be the one in the water tank or in the Prestige but he was STILL willing to risk it. For me Jackman's character was killing himself over and over again and it affected him but he kept doing it any way because that's how obssessed he was. These weren't simple throwaway clones in my mind. They were as much him as the original was.

 

Now I want to watch the movie again :lol:

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5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Let me see if I can explain it... in sci-fi  a clone is kinda looked at as a "copy" of the original. Like a Xerox... it may look EXACTLY like the thing it's copying but it is slightly diminished because people apply the logic that there's some type of "generational loss" when making copies of something. A "duplicate" in sci-fi is literally what it says... it's multiple versions of the same being or entity or object. No loss, no differences, same memories and abilities. For all intents and purposes where you had one being, now you have two existing in the same space. I always interpreted that THAT is what was happening in the Prestige.

 

There's the scene in the movie where Jackman's character asks David Bowie's Tesla about the dozens of duplicate hats and wondering "which one was his." Tesla says "They're ALL yours." To me that implies that they aren't copies, they're literally the same object repeated over and over again. At the end of the movie where Bale's character lectures Jackman's character about sacrifice and Jackman scoffs saying to him that he's sacrifced FAR more than Bale's character(s) did. Bale's character may have 

  Hide contents

lost a brother

but Jackman was literally killing himself and on top of that, as he says, he never knew  for certain if he would be the one in the water tank or in the Prestige but he was STILL willing to risk it. For me Jackman's character was killing himself over and over again and it affected him but he kept doing it any way because that's how obssessed he was. These weren't simple throwaway clones in my mind. They were as much him as the original was.

 

Now I want to watch the movie again :lol:

I was always under the impression this was how it works. 

 

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https://variety.com/2020/film/news/tenet-theaters-drive-ins-christopher-nolan-1234746741/

 

WB planning to block drive-ins from showing Tenet unless indoor theatres also screen it.

 

Quote

But two weeks ahead of its domestic debut, scheduled for Sept. 3, Warner Bros. offered some clarity to exhibitors about its plans for Nolan’s latest. The studio issued strict guidelines to drive-in operators across the country, mandating that “Tenet” can only play in outdoor venues if indoor theaters in that particular market are open.

 

Since traditional brick-and-mortar theaters have reopened in Chicago, for example, drive-in locations in the Windy City will be permitted to play the film. But in New York City and Los Angeles, where hardtop cinemas are still closed, drive-in exhibitors won’t have access to “Tenet.”

 

Wtf.

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On 8/22/2020 at 2:15 PM, skillzdadirecta said:

Let me see if I can explain it... in sci-fi  a clone is kinda looked at as a "copy" of the original. Like a Xerox... it may look EXACTLY like the thing it's copying but it is slightly diminished because people apply the logic that there's some type of "generational loss" when making copies of something. A "duplicate" in sci-fi is literally what it says... it's multiple versions of the same being or entity or object. No loss, no differences, same memories and abilities. For all intents and purposes where you had one being, now you have two existing in the same space. I always interpreted that THAT is what was happening in the Prestige.

 

There's the scene in the movie where Jackman's character asks David Bowie's Tesla about the dozens of duplicate hats and wondering "which one was his." Tesla says "They're ALL yours." To me that implies that they aren't copies, they're literally the same object repeated over and over again. At the end of the movie where Bale's character lectures Jackman's character about sacrifice and Jackman scoffs saying to him that he's sacrifced FAR more than Bale's character(s) did. Bale's character may have 

  Reveal hidden contents

lost a brother

but Jackman was literally killing himself and on top of that, as he says, he never knew  for certain if he would be the one in the water tank or in the Prestige but he was STILL willing to risk it. For me Jackman's character was killing himself over and over again and it affected him but he kept doing it any way because that's how obssessed he was. These weren't simple throwaway clones in my mind. They were as much him as the original was.

 

Now I want to watch the movie again :lol:

 

I agree with all this. I think the first time Jackman clones himself, the one that gets killed begs for his life. He’s murdering people over and over for a trick, that he’s murdering himself is not super relevant. He hides how it works not just to protect the trick, like Bale does, but because he knows what he’s doing  is murder. Bale isn’t a saint and he’s obviously deceitful but Jackman escalates everything to a preposterous degree, is willing to and DOES kill.

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3 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/tenet-theaters-drive-ins-christopher-nolan-1234746741/

 

WB planning to block drive-ins from showing Tenet unless indoor theatres also screen it.

 

 

Wtf.


Warner is appeasing the big chains who don’t want the movie’s theatrical run in those closed regions dominated by drive ins leaving little business for them in a few months when their indoor locations can open. Really lame. Fortunately we are in an open market so I got a print for both of my drive ins. My new one will actually debut with Tenet next week.

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2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I agree with all this. I think the first time Jackman clones himself, the one that gets killed begs for his life. He’s murdering people over and over for a trick, that he’s murdering himself is not super relevant. He hides how it works not just to protect the trick, like Bale does, but because he knows what he’s doing  is murder. Bale isn’t a saint and he’s obviously deceitful but Jackman escalates everything to a preposterous degree, is willing to and DOES kill.

 

What you describe isn't murder to me, I'd be curious how killing duplicates of yourself, particularly when it's clear the original regardless is dead, is a worse misdeed than the people Bale's dual lives destroys. :)

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11 hours ago, Brick said:

I wonder how Canada is doing with theatres. I think we've opened them back up in Ontario, I mean the movie opens for us on Wednesday, but I wonder if that many people are even going to them, and how safe they are. 

Canada has been pretty soft, though Spongebob and Unhinged have been the only major releases in that market. Will be interesting to hear how New Mutants and Bill and Ted do this weekend in Canada and the US, would be a real bad sign if the Boxoffice doesn’t grow week over week given where it was at last weekend.

 

12 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

What you describe isn't murder to me, I'd be curious how killing duplicates of yourself, particularly when it's clear the original regardless is dead, is a worse misdeed than the people Bale's dual lives destroys. :)

I think it all comes down to a question of whether these duplicates are simply him in multiple bodies, or they are distinct beings separate from him. I would suggest the initial cloning situation that ends with a dead man shows pretty definitively that these are distinct beings with their own intrinsic value. They both act independently of one another for their own best interest.

 

The mental abuse that Bale’s character dishes out is bad, no argument there. They both have an obviously unhealthy pursuit of glory in the film. And we are probably missing the point by arguing which bad guy is the worse bad guy :p 

 

One is primarily about self destruction in the pursuit, while the other is about the negative affects on those closest to you. But they are both baaaaaad!

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12 hours ago, SoberChef said:

For those of us in NY or California...can we start a support group or something to try to work through how thoroughly fucked we are getting with regards to not being able to go back to movie theaters!? 

I was on a call today with one of my industry trade associations and they said this week has at least been more productive in conversations with Governors in the 8 states that still have theaters completely closed. But it’s going to be a while. National NATO commissioned a study about the risks associated with theater attendance, will be interesting to see the results. I know they won’t be made public if they are bad 😂

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14 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I think it all comes down to a question of whether these duplicates are simply him in multiple bodies, or they are distinct beings separate from him. I would suggest the initial cloning situation that ends with a dead man shows pretty definitively that these are distinct beings with their own intrinsic value. They both act independently of one another for their own best interest.

 

The mental abuse that Bale’s character dishes out is bad, no argument there. They both have an obviously unhealthy pursuit of glory in the film. And we are probably missing the point by arguing which bad guy is the worse bad guy :p 

 

One is primarily about self destruction in the pursuit, while the other is about the negative affects on those closest to you. But they are both baaaaaad!

 

I don't see self-harm in Jackman's situation, even if they are distinct beings, as bad, since each duplicate is making a choice to kill themselves - they knew the consequences of their choice and they accept it over and over. I'm not really worried about the finer details of how okay/not okay they might be in the moment of their drowning since they've willfully accepted such a fate in the bigger pursuit of the original Jackman's dream.

 

Bale's just hurting other people, leading one to leave him and the other to kill herself. This is all on top of him driving Jackman crazy by not giving him an answer about his own wife's death. I don't think Jackman's a bad person at all, except how he ends up treating Scarlet Johansson, whereas I think Bale thinks he has the moral high ground but is actually a much worse person in the film. Recall, it's not only Bale who doesn't give Jackman an answer, it's Bale who draws further blood when Jackman steals his trick and makes it showier. So, yeah, Bale's worse, but the movie exonerates him (well, exonerates the nicer of the two Bale's, though neither deserves it).

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2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I’m re-evaluating everything I once believed about @Greatoneshere now 😂

 

I’ll give the flick a watch this week, been a minute, and then respond

 

Hahaha I've seen the movie a ton, and I'm not morally against self-destruction, it's common for one's art or in the pursuit of one's dreams. I'd do exactly what Jackman did in his position, I'd happily kill myself off over and over and not give it a moral thought. If my duplicates keep up my work, it's because they feel exactly as I do, because they are me. 

 

I've seen the movie way too much, definitely give it a rewatch and lemme know your thoughts! :)

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One of the Jackmans begs not to be shot, he’s not resigned to being killed since it was part of “his” plan. The copy that Bale is framed for killing was actively trying to escape and not stunting on Bale knowing that “his” plan was about to work. It’s clear that from the movie’s own perspective, Jackman is definitely committing murder. 
 

I also don’t know how someone could say that they keep making the choice to do this over and over... the Jackman at the end straight up says he didn’t know where he’d end up. The ones that die are absolutely not consenting to participating in the trick let alone being killed. This is obvious based on how they behave right before they die. 
 

That’s a really odd read, I don’t understand it at all. :p

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18 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

One of the Jackmans begs not to be shot, he’s not resigned to being killed since it was part of “his” plan. The copy that Bale is framed for killing was actively trying to escape and not stunting on Bale knowing that “his” plan was about to work. It’s clear that from the movie’s own perspective, Jackman is definitely committing murder. 
 

I also don’t know how someone could say that they keep making the choice to do this over and over... the Jackman at the end straight up says he didn’t know where he’d end up. The ones that die are absolutely not consenting to participating in the trick let alone being killed. This is obvious based on how they behave right before they die. 
 

That’s a really odd read, I don’t understand it at all. :p

 

People will always fight to live even if they have accepted to die. The Jackman that begs not to be shot is, I think, the original Jackman attempting to explain that he's the original Jackman, but duplicate Jackman shoots him because he's so freaked out over the whole thing (or vice versa, doesn't matter).

 

As for the Jackman that drowns, two things: drowning is something your body inherently fights, and two, it could thereotically be for Bale's sake (acting as if fighting for his life). Either way, the original Jackman and the original duplicate Jackman are dead; anything the later duplicate Jackman's do, they know someone's dying, whether it's duplicate 3 or duplicate 30 and that's where the consent comes in. The movie might make an (I think, weak) argument at the end when nice Bale tries to make Jackman feel bad for everything he's done, but that's not necessarily the movie's perspective, that's the character's perspective. Bale drove Jackman, in part, to where he ended up, yet takes no responsibility at all for it while trying to guilt Jackman, and I call BS on that as well. Remember, this is a man who lost his wife, who he really loved, under vague circumstances by two men living ostensibly one life (technically two lives with the engineer character) in secret - it would drive anyone crazy. Jackman even tries to drown himself earlier in the film after his wife's death in the sink but can't - because it is impossible to willingly drown yourself, which is why you need a weight with you to drag you down . . . or an enclosed box, which is what happens and what he does to himself over and over, so there's that aspect to consider to - all the duplicates have the same trauma as the original Jackman, so perhaps they are even moreso consenting to dying by drowning, like his wife died. The Bale's are very much in part responsible what Jackman ends up doing to himself over and over again later, for those who want to indict Jackman's actions, you must indict Bale by extension to some degree.

 

Does that explain my view better? If the later Jackman's know someone's dying, and they never know who survives, then they're all consenting in some way, shape, or form, to the trick more than themselves. I'm certainly way more okay with that than Bale driving his wife to suicide, making his child motherless on top of the aforementioned accident with Jackman's wife and then driving Jackman crazy. Seems a lot worse than consenting duplicates knowingly killing themselves, even if vaguely willingly/not willingly.

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2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I don't see self-harm in Jackman's situation, even if they are distinct beings, as bad, since each duplicate is making a choice to kill themselves - they knew the consequences of their choice and they accept it over and over. I'm not really worried about the finer details of how okay/not okay they might be in the moment of their drowning since they've willfully accepted such a fate in the bigger pursuit of the original Jackman's dream.

 

Bale's just hurting other people, leading one to leave him and the other to kill herself. This is all on top of him driving Jackman crazy by not giving him an answer about his own wife's death. I don't think Jackman's a bad person at all, except how he ends up treating Scarlet Johansson, whereas I think Bale thinks he has the moral high ground but is actually a much worse person in the film. Recall, it's not only Bale who doesn't give Jackman an answer, it's Bale who draws further blood when Jackman steals his trick and makes it showier. So, yeah, Bale's worse, but the movie exonerates him (well, exonerates the nicer of the two Bale's, though neither deserves it).

You're completly forgetting/glossing over the fact that Jackman's character was perfectly willing to frame Bale and orphan his daughter. Sure he was going to look after her and make sure she was taken care of, but she was STILL collateral damage, just like Scar Jo. Michael Cain's character recognized what a monster he had become once he saw Bale's daughter at Jackman's house which is why he turned on him at the end. Both Jackman AND the Bale brother who was executed were obsessed to the point where they didn't care WHO got hurt in pursuit of their vendetta's and it cost BOTH of them everything at the end of the movie. That's pretty clear... their is no "one is worse than the other." They were BOTH assholes.

 

and once again, there is no "Original Jackman" they're ALL the same person. They movie spells that out pretty clearly in the exchanges with David Bowie's Tesla.

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29 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

and once again, there is no "Original Jackman" they're ALL the same person. They movie spells that out pretty clearly in the exchanges with David Bowie's Tesla.

Tesla TELLS us this, but the movie SHOWS two Angier’s having agency separate from the other. They aren’t the same person anymore than Borden/Fallon are the same person based on their complete commitment to live the same lives.

 

Jeeeez, I love this movie 😂

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36 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

You're completly forgetting/glossing over the fact that Jackman's character was perfectly willing to frame Bale and orphan his daughter. Sure he was going to look after her and make sure she was taken care of, but she was STILL collateral damage, just like Scar Jo. Michael Cain's character recognized what a monster he had become once he saw Bale's daughter at Jackman's house which is why he turned on him at the end. Both Jackman AND the Bale brother who was executed were obsessed to the point where they didn't care WHO got hurt in pursuit of their vendetta's and it cost BOTH of them everything at the end of the movie. That's pretty clear... their is no "one is worse than the other." They were BOTH assholes.

 

and once again, there is no "Original Jackman" they're ALL the same person. They movie spells that out pretty clearly in the exchanges with David Bowie's Tesla.

 

You're right, I failed to mention the daughter. I'd argue Jackman was doing the daughter a service, given all the Bales had done to their own family. Also, to be clear, I'm not saying Jackman is a saint. But he lost his wife, he suffers, he struggles, etc. I relate to that more than the Bales. I earlier did mention that Jackman did Scar Jo wrong, 100%. It was pretty clear she liked him and felt bad for him but he was too depressed and angry to care. The daughter should be with her dad, but to be fair, we don't know which Bale that is. Perhaps she would have had a better life with Jackman. As for the framing, I was fine with it, I felt Bale deserved it at that point (I kid, I kid) but I hear you on that.

 

I'm only using the term original Jackman for clarity's sake, no other reason. My original point isn't that Jackman doesn't do bad things, but they are driven by what Bale does to him in large part. A lot of people when discussing the Prestige say Jackman is the "bad" one. I've always felt what the Bales do is worse, that's all. I stand by that point. Not that Jackman is some saint. He did indeed do Scar Jo wrong, and framing one of the Bales and taking away the daughter aren't good either. But those three things pale in comparison to what Bale does and initiates. Remember, the things Jackman did near the end are hail mary last ditch attempts to get back at Bale, it's not like he went to that option first. He was at his wits' end. But yes, bad all the same, just not nearly as bad as the Bales, to me. 

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7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Tesla TELLS us this, but the movie SHOWS two Angier’s having agency separate from the other. They aren’t the same person anymore than Borden/Fallon are the same person based on their complete commitment to live the same lives.

 

Jeeeez, I love this movie 😂

 

I think both of you are correct at the same time. They are duplicates, not clones, but they do have agency and can exist at the same time as another duplicate, meaning they can't both be the "original" Jackman at the same time even though they also are since they are facsimiles with all the same memories and traumas. I think the only key aspect that matters for discussion purposes is they do have agency, the rest is pedantry anyway.

 

The machine may very well theoretically also erode a part of your soul/person with each copy, which would also explain why Jackman becomes so isolated and driven to just the prestige by the end, since that was all that's left of him. The book the film is based on, which is considerably different, goes hard into this aspect whereas the film hardly hints at it, though it does hint at it. Remember, the original Jackman was a very happy man. Yes, the films events change him, but after he starts copying himself, he becomes worse and worse. Partly due to Bale, partly due to isolation, but also partly due to using the machine. The big question is: does Jackman know he's eroding a part of himself each time, and doing it anyway? If he doesn't know, then he's more innocent in hurting himself. If he does know, then damn, dude was committed to some serious self-harm/self-destruction, but I admire the committment.

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Just now, sblfilms said:

Tesla TELLS us this, but the movie SHOWS two Angier’s having agency separate from the other. They aren’t the same person anymore than Borden/Fallon are the same person based on their complete commitment to live the same lives.

 

Jeeeez, I love this movie 😂

 Them having agency doesn't make them different. The only independent agency they exhibit is their survival instinct when faced with death. They are ALL singleminded in the same way and continue to carry on "the orginal's" plan because they're LITERALLY the same guy. The real horror (from their perspective) is the uncertainty they face when ever they step inside the machine because they never knew which one would be transported and which one would fall into the tank (which leads me to believe that that aspect of the machine had some degree of randomness) That said, it never deterred him and he KEPT DOING IT night after night until Bale finally fell for the trap. He gave himself 100 performances (deaths) to pull it off and it ultimately succeeded.

 

To be clear when I say they're the same person they are literally driven by the same motivations with NO deviation. Borden and Fallon (Thank you for remembering their names btw) couldn't replicate that because while they had the same goal, they WERE two distinctly different people which is what Fallon's wife picked up on and ultimately what drone her to suicide.  There was no differentation between the Angier dupes... he one-upped Borden once again. At a tremendous cost which was kinda the point of the movie.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 Them having agency doesn't make them different. The only independent agency they exhibit is their survival instinct when faced with death. They are ALL singleminded in the same way and continue to carry on "the orginal's" plan because they're LITERALLY the same guy. The real horror (from their perspective) is the uncertainty they face when ever they step inside the machine because they never knew which one would be transported and which one would fall into the tank (which leads me to believe that that aspect of the machine had some degree of randomness) That said, it never deterred him and he KEPT DOING IT night after night until Bale finally fell for the trap. He gave himself 100 performances (deaths) to pull it off and it ultimately succeeded.

 

To be clear when I say they're the same person they are literally driven by the same motivations with NO deviation. Borden and Fallon (Thank you for remembering their names btw) couldn't replicate that because while they had the same goal, they WERE two distinctly different people which is what Fallon's wife picked up on and ultimately what drone her to suicide.  There was no differentation between the Angier dupes... he one-upped Borden once again. At a tremendous cost which was kinda the point of the movie.

 

Yep, I'm on board with all of this. I think there is a conversation about the agency of the duplicates, but since all we get is, as you said, survival instinct faced with death (gun, drowning), we don't observe any agency except for the duplicate/whatever that's doing all the setting up and shows with Michael Caine's character, etc. That's technically agency since that's a duplicate doing all that (since, as we explained, the "original, original" Jackman either dies from the gun or the drowning from the first show, so whatever took his place is a duplicate).

 

Either way, I agree overall. Damn, this movie is so good, every time it comes up in the 14 years since its release it always gets discussion going. 

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Lemme try and dive into this without quoting 4 miles worth of posts. 
 

I think they are def duplicates and not copies. I buy into the difference 100%. 
 

I think where the film gets especially interesting is when the Bale character gets framed. I do not buy at all the idea that the Jackman in the water is simply fighting for his life as a natural instinct. Go back and watch that scene, as soon as he hits the water he looks around as if he’s surprised he’s in the water.  Also remember when he first replicated himself, the other Jackman begs for his life. They are the same but that shows they’re individual minds. He is 100% murdering himself over and over. 

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10 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Lemme try and dive into this without quoting 4 miles worth of posts. 
 

I think they are def duplicates and not copies. I buy into the difference 100%. 
 

I think where the film gets especially interesting is when the Bale character gets framed. I do not buy at all the idea that the Jackman in the water is simply fighting for his life as a natural instinct. Go back and watch that scene, as soon as he hits the water he looks around as if he’s surprised he’s in the water.  Also remember when he first replicated himself, the other Jackman begs for his life. They are the same but that shows they’re individual minds. He is 100% murdering himself over and over. 

 

I agree, he's killing himself, I just don't think it's a big deal. Other Jackman who gets shot begged for his life, because, as I said, arguably that was the original Jackman (or the first duplicate) wanting to live, because of course. After that, all bets are off. The surprise on the one's face drowning is two-fold: that time the plan worked, because Bale was there, and two: Jackman admits he never knew which one lived and which one died - so I imagine finding out you're the one dying after the machine has done its thing when you're in the box, drowning, yeah, that'd be a surprise and you might fight for your life anyway since you finally realize the truth of who is the one dying and who is being teleported.

 

But again, seems like small potatoes - they're all buying into the idea for the trick regardless since they all know someone's dying when the trick is done with the very first show. It's not like the Jackman's don't know (cause they do know, they put it there) there's a drowning box under the stage for the one who stands in place and a Jackman will ultimately fall into one and drown. They definitely know/are aware.

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4 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

What this discussion proves is that that 66% on Metacritic is indeed a joke :lol:

 

Oh it gets worse my friend. It's at 60% with top critics on RottenTomatoes, and at 76% all critics. I even think the 76% is too low. The audience score? 92% haha. This, The Fountain, and The Fall all having mediocre to bad scores always surprises me. Other, more divisive films like Cloud Atlas make more sense, but not those.

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prestige

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6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Oh it gets worse my friend. It's at 60% with top critics on RottenTomatoes, and at 76% all critics. I even think the 76% is too low. The audience score? 92% haha. This, The Fountain, and The Fall all having mediocre to bad scores always surprises me. Other, more divisive films like Cloud Atlas make more sense, but not those.

 

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prestige

Which is why, once again, that I pay those agregate sites and reviewers little to no mind at all. 

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1 hour ago, Mercury33 said:

Go back and watch that scene, as soon as he hits the water he looks around as if he’s surprised he’s in the water.

He certainly is surprised. But this surprise might exist regardless of whether it's the Angier that steps into the machine or the Angier that is created by the machine. In both cases the person ending up in the tank has the hope that they will be up in the balcony before he hits the water.

 

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

They are ALL singleminded in the same way and continue to carry on "the orginal's" plan because they're LITERALLY the same guy.

They continue to carry out the plan over and over precisely because of the ambiguity. There is no way to know if they are the one in the tank or on the balcony. But the truth is that one is the guy who steps in the machine initially, and one isn't. I do believe it makes a difference if you are subjecting other beings to death each night, or making the choice to give up your own life each time. Would Angier have stepped into the machine if he knew he would drown when doing the trick? I'm not sure. 

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1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

 Would Angier have stepped into the machine if he knew he would drown when doing the trick? I'm not sure. 

 He knows full well there's a fifty percent chance that "he" (the one stepping into the machine) could be the one who falls into the tank and does it anyway. He says it at the end of the movie... musing about what it took to step into that machine every. night not knowing if he would be the one in the box or in the prestige (or something to that effect). That's how driven he was because he was willing to risk death.

 

 

BTW Angiers last line isn't just talking about magic... that's Nolan talking about the magic of filmmaking and his love/obsession with it. That's the whole other meta/subtext of the film... it's a commentary on the magic of cinema.

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12 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Which is why, once again, that I pay those agregate sites and reviewers little to no mind at all. 

 

I know you don't, by comparison I feel big data carries more weight in finding the intersubjective truth of the art, but I'm not beholden to them either. So I get that haha.

 

11 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

He certainly is surprised. But this surprise might exist regardless of whether it's the Angier that steps into the machine or the Angier that is created by the machine. In both cases the person ending up in the tank has the hope that they will be up in the balcony before he hits the water.

 

They continue to carry out the plan over and over precisely because of the ambiguity. There is no way to know if they are the one in the tank or on the balcony. But the truth is that one is the guy who steps in the machine initially, and one isn't. I do believe it makes a difference if you are subjecting other beings to death each night, or making the choice to give up your own life each time. Would Angier have stepped into the machine if he knew he would drown when doing the trick? I'm not sure. 

 

Yep, right on all counts I think. The ambiguity is the point. The one turning the machine on hopes each time he will be the man on the balcony, but Jackman never knows. Fucking brilliant. Literally one of my favorite scenes in the movie is when he bows underneath the stage. He wanted it so bad, and I felt bad for him in that moment.

 

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 He knows full well there's a fifty percent chance that "he" (the one stepping into the machine) could be the one who falls into the tank and does it anyway. He says it at the end of the movie... musing about what it took to step into that machine every. night not knowing if he would be the one in the box or in the prestige (or something to that effect). That's how driven he was because he was willing to risk death.

 

But also this is true. He knew the risks. I think he's clearly consenting, so I agree with you. That's why Jackman's final speech at the end is so riveting. That is a man who has been pushed so far past what he thought he was capable of. He was just a young man who wanted to entertain children with his wife and live a happy life away from his rich family which disapproved of him. Yet, in the end, he uses all his family's wealth, the one thing he hated, to achieve what he never initially even cared for, because of Bale. He just wanted to make people happy, and be a showman. His risks feel palpable, real. 

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